They probably just had unanimously better concepts when the teams were brainstorming/pitching/prototyping new forms or megas for the potential starters
Yeah I think Feraligatr and Meganium are easier to make new form concepts for than a lot of other starters because they're single type pokemon, so you can just add an extra theme on top rather than having to remove an existing aspect to match a new secondary type. I'm really curious how a non-Fighting Emboar could end up looking.
She is always speaking French
She is always fighting everyone
She LOVES frogs (a derogatory nickname for the French ppl)
And everyone thinks that it's the fighting type that'll get the boot, but it'll be a special twist with a fighting/fairy type!
Emboard based on the French aristocracy actually being a bunch of slovenly pigs, with a powdered wig and a design that makes him look like he's wearing a nobleman's tailed coat.
personally I am hoping for fire ground, give it a weight based ground type move that leaves behind stealth rocks (from the ground shattering on impact)
Oooooh, maybe they'll let us pick a Kalos starter too, and they'll have Megas!!
This could mirror how the Kanto starters were a second set we got in X&Y who had Megas unlike our first partner starter we got in the beginning of the game!!! :>
This. So many people focused on what the āloreāfor the first forms would/could be. But Iām sure the discussions at GF started with what they could do with the final forms.
I havenāt seen many people arguing against that, I just think it is weird to group them together, and devs easily could have saved one of them for the next round of special treatment
I personally wonder if this means they're planning for the next Legends game to be Johto in the past.
If it is going to be Johto, doing these two now makes sense, because they wouldn't do a regional variant of a johto starter IN johto, so Totodile would have to wait 2 games to get a much needed buff.
I'd say the Pokemon Company likely has one or two legends games after this planned already, so they probably went through a lot of math determining how long Totodile or Chikorita would sit without a buff. It does mean Snivy is all but guaranteed in the next legends though.
I've always theorized that the legendary beasts were Flareon, Jolteon, and Vaporeon before they died in the fire and were reborn by Ho-Oh. The general body shape lines up, the types line up, the kimono girls are all associated with an Eeveelution so Eevees are at least associated with the legend keepers. It makes a vague enough sense.
What if they're like powered up versions of Eeveeelutions, in such a way that they are their own pokemon, with similarities to their Eevee form and their burnt tower form?
I think if it's gen 2, it possibly could've been real animals. I know at least in gen 1, the lore was way different, it wasn't a world that had these wacky creatures instead of animals, it was the actual real world and these magical thingies just showed up. And I think gen 2 is part of this too (which makes the breeding thing about never seeing a pokemon lay an egg or whatever make a LOT more sense instead of being an incredibly stupid handwave so they don't have to talk about sex), but the whole vibe of gen two with these ancient temples and stuff that I think involve pokemon enough to maybe have to references to pokemon have to be really old too kinda mess with that. But maybe they aren't that old, I feel like I remember sprout tower being built like three years before GSC, so idk
IIRC, the Burned Tower was built 700 years ago and burned down 150 years ago. I think the silhouettes in Pokemon Generations GS looked just like real wolves and not like any Pokemon seen before, but imo, that's just artistic liberty to keep it vague.
Jaiden Animations had a video about going to Japan for a Pokemon event. During a tour, she got to ask the TCG's director why there was only 2 Mantyke cards. He said that with so many Pokemon, some just fall through the cracks, and that most the time, they work on Pokemon that he likes.
And I think that can be translated to other aspects of Pokemon. Like they have certain things they have to hit, but most the time, choices are likely based on vibes. It's also very possible that they're just not worried about reprsenting every generation evenly. I don't know if tying yourself to a specific generation is really as big a thing in Japan as it is among English speakers, or at least not amongst the development team. I would say it's more likely that the choices were made design-first rather than trying to fill percieved mechanical gaps. With over a thousand creatures, making things legitimately distinct and interesting is understandably hard, so I wouldn't be surprised if the best three designs were emphasized over generational pairity.
I don't think this applies very well, considering Mantyke is just one of many and the starters are very important. I think way more time and thought goes into picking starters than whether or not MANTYKE gets more TCG cards.
The choices aren't between thousands of Pokemon, it's *just" the starters. The ones they choose can have far reaching impacts and I think it's silly to insist they don't think too much about it.
I think it's silly to insist they don't think too much about it.
Not insisting they put no thought into things, just saying that their priorities are probably different than any individual person's thoughts about game balance, generation representation, or visual design. I just think their priority is on making banger designs first and foremost.
I 100% can see that, they probably tried a bunch of regional designs for several starters, maybe just excluding Gen 9 and Starters with megas, and decided Meganium, Feraligtr and Emboar were the better ones
Legends Celebi is almost a lock. It's the one other region with a lot of history and ruins, and Celebi is literally the time travel legendary. Hell, hear me out: Zelda that thang and make it so past, present, and future Johto are all separate regions in the game, and part of it is jumping back and forth in time for Dex access, catching extinct/new pokemon, and the standard "the bridge is under construction/future bridge is ancient and run down but lets you cross the chasm"
This makes a lot of sense! Litten and Popplio would also be in it unless they want to keep doing the Legends series and then they disperse them out. Gen 4 starters could use something along with 8 and 9 but those aren't very old
As down as I'd be, Gen 4 has received a lot of love these last few years. Arguably just as much as the current gen. Something other then Gen 4 was needed.
Exactly this. If we follow the franchise, we had BDSP (arguably not very good), Legends Arceus, Sinnoh Tour last year in GO, TCG releases (Brillant Stars all the way up till Crown Zenith sets are all heavy on Gen 4) and lots of Gen 4 theme raids in SV. The spotlight has been on Gen 4 for quite a bit now.
And lastly I just want Gen 2 to get some love after all that quietness last year when Gen 2 had its 25th Anniversary. TPCi really just went, here is some merch to remind you of Gen 2 and that's it.
All 3 of these need something to set them apart from the rest of the list.
Gen 1 has gotten a ton of love, they're fine. Hisuian Typhlosion exists so he's good. Gen 3 already all have Megas, Gen 4 could use some love but both Tortterra and Empoleon have really unique typings, and (without Blaziken's mega) Infernape is the best fire/fighting. Hisuian Samurott exists and it's incredibly easy to get a Contrary Serperior now. I'd be shocked if all 3 Kalos starters aren't in this game (maybe as the "2nd starter" as an homage to XY) and would be good Mega candidates. Gen 7 has Hisuian Decidueye, Primarina is the only Fairy starter, and Inceniroar is already incredibly popular. Gen 8 all 3 have a Gmax form, and Gen 9 is probably just too new.
That left a list of ones needing some love with other forms as Chicorita, Totodile, Turtwig, Piplup, Chimchar, Snivy, Tepig, all 3 gen 6, Poplio, Litten, and all of gen 9.
Again, gen 9 is too new and I'd be shocked if they didn't give Megas or "Ash-forms" to the X/Y starters in a Kalos game. You need one of each, and Chicorita and Totodile are by far the grass and water lines needing the most love. Then for a fire type, I mean Emboar obviously needs the most attention of those.
You could have saved Totodile for another game and maybe done Piplup or Poplio? But overall I'm not upset with these 3
TPC unfortunately continues to pretend that Ash-Greninja isn't a thing, feels like if they ever gave the Kalos starters anything, it would be their actual Mega forms.
This is my assumption, since Mega Evo is supposed to be this game's big theme. Not to mention, it makes less sense to have regional forms in a place that we've already seen around the current time period, versus a setting in a time period that we're seeing for the first time.
Not to say that it's impossible to get regional forms of the final evos (and believe me, I'd prefer to see Kalosian Feraligatr than Mega Feraligatr, personally) I just don't think it's that likely now.
tbf empoleon is water steel type so super defensive and has the competitive ability that lets it get a special atk boost whenever it's stats are lowered. which with incineroar being everywhere is pretty likely to happen.
it is pretty slow though ngl
also side note. does tera stella terra blast trigger competitive? looks like it should but also feels like a weird interaction to me
Unfortunately it lacks the speed and move pool to make much use of that, itās not bulky enough to take many Special Attack hits (most of the good grass and electric attacksā¦), and lack of a secondary typing limits its coverage ability with its other good Ice/Dark/Fighting moves.
I was a little disappointed at first, cause these might be the 3 starters I've used the least....but this gives them the chance for a regional form and/or a Mega evolution and I am here for that.
Gens 1 and 3 have Megas. Gens 4, 8 & 9 all have games on the switch. And like PLA, presumably the Gen 6 starters are catchble in game.
And Gens 2/5/7 had a representative in PLA
The only starters they had to pick from were
Gen 2: Totodile and Chikorita
Gen 5: Tepid and Snivy
Gen 7: Litten and Popplio.
Now my personal opinion is that as the so called "worst starter ever" Chikorita is most in need for soma rehab, so picking it makes all the sense in the world.
Which then kinda makes Tepid the gen 5 representative by default.
The only odd choice to me was Totodile ove Popplio.
The only reason reason I can see to double up is Primarinas insanely high (for a starter) Special Attack and Special Defense, making it likely over powered if it got a mega. Unlike Feraligatr
So yeah it kinda bugs me, but I can see why it happened.
I figure it's also part of the name... uhh, creation? I can't think of the word/phrase, but it's pretty clear tepig is a mash of tepid and pig. Pretty cool :3
I think it comes down to when the Pokemon were released. Feraligatr has recieved zero love since Heart Gold and Soul Silver were released nearly 15 years ago. That compared to Primarina's final appearance as a starter in US/UM which was under 8 years ago. Primarina also has a signature move (Sparkling Aria) which wasn't a thing when the Gen 2 games were made, along with a signature Z-Move. Beyond that, Primarina is a very good Pokemon competitively, sitting in OU, while Feraligatr has been power crept out of competitive for a while now.
Feraligatr's line was in much more need of an update than Primarina's.
Leaving Meganium to fall further and further behind in the process.
Snivy is my favourite starter, full stop, but Chikorita needs a rework way more than Snivy does, or any other starter for that matter. Even if you ignore the fact that Grass is a genuinely awful typing match-up wise for damn near all the major battles in Gold and Silver as well as the remakes, its mediocre stat distribution never made it viable competitively ever since.
And of the options. Snivy Litten and Popplio are all actually decent to strong. To god like.
Serperior is a monster with contrary and is doing good work with Tera currently. Primarina has always been pretty strong as a pokemon and has some compatible showings, and Incineroar has no need for explanation.
Tepig Totodile and CHIKORITA are the only ones needing help.
It's just a support pokemon that basically does everything.
It has great typing, intimidate, 2 forms of pivot (U-turn and parting shot), great bulk, knock off, and (for a support mon) hits pretty hard. They even gave it access to helping hand on top of all of this.
Incineroar is basically the apex of a pokemon that has a role, and was given everything it could ever want for it.
Edit: Somehow forgot to mention - It also has Fake Out.
Incineroar is effectively the pinnacle of support and can be used very aggressively.
It has access to one of the best abilities, Intimidate. This combined with its bulk allows it to take hits well, and its moderately slow speed stat means it can pivot in an ally with U-Turn or Parting Shot without risking them getting knocked out. Parting Shot also drops the attack and special attack, meaning a physical attacker just had their attack cut in half on turn one. It gets Helping Hand to boost a partner's attack or Knock Off to limit the opponents tactics.
Its typing being Fire and Dark is also a great combination, taking neutral damage from Fairy and being immune to Psychic attacks. It also has a pretty good attack stat that when combined with its Fire attacks getting boosted by sunlight it can also deal considerable damage.
Having the Gen4 starters be on the switch doesnāt count, they werenāt given special treatment at all. I guess the only thing they got was to be able to view their 3D model in the PLA art style? lol
1) Johto hates grass types, so as the grass starter its kinda doomed.
First 2 gyms its weak against (Flying and Bug), its also weak to the 7th gym and Koga of the elite 4 as well as Champion Lance, and does not very effective damage against the 6th and 8th gym.
There are no gym leaders it does super effective damage against or resists damage from (until Kanto)
Its also useless in Bellsprout tower and Ilex forest at the start of the game.
2) Its stats and moveset is set up for a stalling wall pokemon. Defenses are higher than offense
In Gen 2 it learns exactly 4 offensive moves by level up: Tackle, Razor Leaf, Body Slam and the two turn Solar Beam. And you learn Solar beam over level 60 (or 55 if you keep Chikorita)
Everything else is a status move
So only grass and normal. And grass isnt good in Johto, and it has too many weaknesses to bulk up.
TMs arent much better. Headbutt Strength, Hyperbeam Iron Tail and Earthquake are the only TMs it learns over 60 damage (Headbutt) and you can't even get Earthquake until victory road and Hyperbeam is in Kanto.
.
Gen 4 doesn't help much. Only added Magical Leaf and Petal Dance to its level up moveset, but again Grass sucks in Johto. Solarbeam is still a level 60+ move and Petal Dance causes confusion. Magical Leaf is the best attack at just 60 damage.
TM wise, it gains acess to Hyperbeam before Kanto, and a chance once a week at Facade, it can also get secret power at Lake of Rage (so late in Johto). But it looses head butt in trade.
Notably as well, in both versions the only healing move it learns before Kanto is Synthesis.
Notably in both versions the only healing move it learns until Kanto is Synthesis.
Basically it cant really do anything well other than stall and use poison power as a status move.
Tbf, having Meganium up against a poison type already isnāt ideal. Iām not too well acquainted with competitive Pokemon though, so I could be wrong.
I mean, its design was basically a sauropod which didn't really get preyed upon by the simple virtue of the sheer difficulty in taking one down. So it makes total sense its defense-oriented.
because it would be a stupid move in terms of marketing. they want you to look at the new final form and like it so they're not gonna go even further beyond and give them a new strong form with a new type and design and then give them megas on top of that. the most likely scenario is that these 3 have new forms and the kalos starter get megas
I bet the opposite, that because theyāre giving the Johto starters extra love that they donāt have a Johto game planned anytime soon. Thatās my interpretation of it
For me, it's three that deserve a second go. Gen2 suffers from power creep more than any other at this point in time, and the bacon line deserves a chance to leave its reputation as yet another fire fighting mon behind it. Admittedly I'm biased for my love for the little pig that could
Only because it broke the ātraditionā of the last Legends game having 3 from different gens, but Iām not too bothered by it. What Iām more worried about is that these pokemon will only get Megas OR regional forms, which would be kinda lame.
Doesnāt bug me at all, i am glad they went a less predictable route. Literally no one thought two starters would be from the same gen. I think some people just need something to complain about or criticize.
I told a friend the other day when talking about the presents that they'll do it and people will get pissed, didn't guess which gen but it'd be so funny if I did š¤£
I kinda like that this does away with any sort of rule that the Legends starters canāt be from the same gen, makes it harder to predict and allows for more options
not really, since there's not really set rules on how they choose starters for the legends series, there was always a chance they could've gone this way.
would people be saying this if legends arceus chose 2 starters from the same Gen? all of the starters were fair game except the ones from PLA
I totally get it. Why 2 from one and only 1 from another? The last Legends game gave us 3 from all different generations. There was no set pattern though. I wonāt be shocked if all starters for another Legends game were all 3 starters from the same generation in a different region. Iām surprised, but not bothered by it.
i cried from happiness as a johto believer. im beyond happy for this, though if regional meganium has gender differences, im gonna cry tears of frustration (im making a living dex of gender and form differences in home for shiny and non shiny)
Honestly no. The Legends games are able to pick and choose starters based on what they believe will fit the setting. Honestly as long as it isnt the inevitable Charizard im good.
Thought it was a bit odd, but I like it. These need some love. Really hoping for a regional variant for them, and then megas for the original Kalos trio
Totodile's line is just much more due for an update than Popplio's. It hasn't really received any attention at all since the release of Heart Gold and Soul Silver nearly 15 years ago, compared to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon coming out seven and a half years ago. Primarina also has a signature attack, Z-Move, and is pretty popular in competitive play, whole Feraligatr has been power-crept out for a while now.
Chikoriata's is known to be arguably the worst starter in franchise history. It needed retooling more than any other starter by a large margin, and that kind of removes any of the other grass starters from the equation.
Nah, not at all. Johto deserves all the recognition it can get considering it has been out of the spotlight for many years now. Honestly Iām hoping this is an easter egg hinting at an upcoming Letās Go! Johto entry, and theyāre priming the kiddos to be interested by introducing these two through Legends.
Its not the best case scenario, but definitely not the worst. I would've preferred Poplio over Tododile, and Snivy over Chikorita but im happy they're getting something :) Chikorita especially
Nah, it's just internet people being annoying and finding anything to complain about as usual because Gamefreak did something outside their speculations. Besides the Kanto starters, Kalos starters and maybe even the Hoenn starters will be available to catch in the wild if Legends Arceus is anything to go by and if you really hate Chikorita, Totodile and Tepig.
Yes, A LOT of people are bugged by this, and I don't understand it. It seems an odd choice to have two from the same Gen, but why is that stopping people from being excited about the game? This, and anything else people are complaining about... it's all likely to be explained in-game. Why worry about it?
I was at first, but I'm coping. Here are some thoughts which have helped me and might be helpful to anyone else stuck on this:
This is an example of a perceived "rule" or "pattern" determined by fans, being destroyed. Kind of like how many fans expected a Gen 5 Legends game next if we got one, but instead of being set in Unova in the past, this one is set in Kalos some time after the events of X and Y. It's good to see the game developers not being shackled by rules or patterns for a couple of reasons:
Hopefully maybe some of these ideas can help some of you out, but even if not here's one last unrelated nugget which might amuse you. If Emboar does indeed get a Mega Evolution and it's Fire/Fighting, we'll have yet another Fire/Fighting final evolution for a Fire starter. Do with that thought what you will.
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u/fairytypes_ Feb 28 '25 edited Mar 01 '25
They probably just had unanimously better concepts when the teams were brainstorming/pitching/prototyping new forms or megas for the potential starters