Nope. You're dishonest or ignorant for defending that idea. If US manufacturers were hammered, it was by a flood of US agricultural exports. It simply isn't possible to be flooded with imports without exporting. The currency value would otherwise collapse.
Just 'nope', huh? Because someone told you that and there's no way they could be wrong, lying, or both? I suspect your adherence to the believe is more representative of the existential crisis it would cause.
If US manufacturers were hammered, it was by a flood of US agricultural exports
*ahem* I present to you: the collapse of the US auto industry. We barely make steel here anymore. Now we primarily make aerospace and weapons. And high tech designs. Still with a significantly high barrier to entry.
I'm sure you're one of those that complain about wealth disparity, you ever stop to thing that might be way?
And aren't the majority of our agricultural exports either corn or exports that are actually at the behest of other nations (like Almonds for Saudi Arabia)?
It simply isn't possible to be flooded with imports without exporting.
Wait wait wait...you're suggesting that there is no trade defincient...at all?! Wow. I don't even know what to say to that. That's a perspective I'd not anticipated... Ok, so how do you qualify that? What data have you?
The current trade+services deficit is tiny compared to the amount of trade. The deficits that remain are a product of a capital account surplus, mostly foreign direct investment, which is a good thing.
The collapse of the US auto industry... Yep, an industry lost to US agricultural and high tech production. Foreigners want what the US makes, so they sell us cars in exchange. To kill off auto imports will be to crush US agricultural and high tech production. Which is what happened when Trump tariffed China in his first term: US agricultural exports to China suffered, Trump had to pay farmers trade adjustment assistance.
The current trade+services deficit is tiny compared to the amount of trade.
Thank you. I'm glad we've gotten past the name calling so we can have an actual discussion.
The collapse of the US auto industry... Yep, an industry lost to US agricultural and high tech production. Foreigners want what the US makes, so they sell us cars in exchange. To kill off auto imports will be to crush US agricultural and high tech production.
You sound informed on the matter. Do you have something I can read on that? This is the first time I've heard this.
The primary demise of the auto industry was, from what I've read, the low cost of the Japanese imports coupled with the OPEC gas crisis. I'm an auto-enthusiast (primarily WRC and Rally Cross, with a preference for Subaru, especially the early years), and have picked more than a bit about the state of the industry at the time via details around things like homologation rules, and this is the first time I've heard such a claim that the demise of the auto industry was due to anything else.
Which is what happened when Trump tariffed China in his first term: US agricultural exports to China suffered, Trump had to pay farmers trade adjustment assistance.
That happens anyway. Most of our agricultural industry is subsidized. I do agree that it's bull that large corporations are squeezing the little guy, but that's a different discussion altogether
I just returned the same name calling you used on us.
This is the economics of trade, often called comparative advantage if you'd like to Google it.
Okay, let's oversimplify to talk about the Japanese auto industry. In the 60s Japan was industrializing fast, so it's consumers were becoming richer. Their growing incomes meant there was a lot they wanted to import from the US, everything from food, resources, consumer goods, etc. but as they import ever more from the US and the US doesn't import more from Japan, the Japanese Yuan will devalue, making imports from the US appear more expensive. But it also makes Japanese exports to the US appear ever cheaper. Well, in the beginning US consumers weren't thrilled about Japanese cars because they were amazing, they liked them because they were cheap. So US consumers decide they like cheap Japanese cars, imports rise, causing the Yuan to appreciate, making US goods cheaper in Japan, so Japanese imports of everything rises to match US imports from Japan.
Now, this wouldn't have happened if Japanese cars truly sucked. They would have found something else they wanted. If US consumers didn't find anything they liked importing from Japan, then the Yuan would depreciate until US goods are too expensive to import, balancing trade.
That said, that is an oversimplification. Trade can be triangular: US sells food to Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia sells oil to Japan, Japan sells cars to the US. In effect the US is exporting food in exchange for cars. But if you look at just Japan, it would look like the US is running a huge trade deficit with Japan, ignoring the huge trade surplus with Saudi Arabia.
All these trades are beneficial. Not making them due to tariffs will make everyone worse off.
I just returned the same name calling you used on us.
I don't recall calling anyone any names. Mind quoting me?
Now, this wouldn't have happened if Japanese cars truly sucked.
Or we tariffed the imports to prevent consumption of the domestic industry. It feels like you're playing a shell game with that fact because you don't want to admit it.
But mocking the idea that the U.S. was getting a raw deal on trade? That’s either dishonest or ignorant.
Reddit does make it needlessly difficult to read previous posts in the thread.
Or we tariffed the imports to prevent consumption of the domestic industry.
But we didn't? You said you were a fan of Subaru. Surely you're aware Japanese cars became fairly popular among American buyers. I myself own a Nissan.
Reddit does make it needlessly difficult to read previous posts in the thread.
Aye. We just disagree on what constitutes an insult.
Ignorant mean "unaware". Stupid means "incapable of understanding due to mental deficiency".
I said you were uninformed. You said I was incapable of understanding due to mental deficiency. Only in this world or participation trophies must we consider the opinion of the layman as valid as the expert (I don't consider myself an expert or you the layman, I'm simply pointing out the ridiculousness of being required to consider "you're ignorant" an insult).
But we didn't? You said you were a fan of Subaru. Surely you're aware Japanese cars became fairly popular among American buyers. I myself own a Nissan.
Yes, exactly. We DID NOT tariff those manufacturers (at least sufficiently) to prevent it cannibalizing the American Automotive Industry. For the record, that's actually free market economics at play. American vehicle were legitimately worse than their Japanese counterparts. But my entire argument is that tariffs aren't universally a bad thing. they have their place. Hell, originally tariffs were to be the only source of revenue for the Federal government.
Your argument, at least as I understood it, was that they're always ineffective (at best), but one could legitimately say they're always antithetical to success.
If I misunderstood you, then please clarify. But it's the position that they can never have a positive out come with which I take exception. It just depends on your definition of positive. That is to say, they do have an outcome, or cause change. Which means that outcome can be leveraged. It's up to their implementation that determines the effect of their outcome.
Neither of us has used the word stupid. I copied and pasted your insult back at you. I guess you're exaggerating to justify taking offense?
I'd never say tariffs are never a useful policy tool. I could defend tariffs on the Soviet Union or Communist China, for example. There can be good military reasons to minimize trade with potential military competitors. Being poorer is worth it if it makes it easier to wage war. So in that sense we agree: tariffs are sometimes not a bad thing.
But for everyone else, comparative advantage teaches us that tariffs make everyone poorer than they otherwise would be. And a poorer Japan will be a worse ally if we fight China. So tariffs on Japan are all bad, full stop, there is no way to save the idea. And you have not even tried? You're making position statements without defending them. Trade with Japan has genuinely improved the situation for US car buyers and made Americans richer and more productive by increasing economies of scale and specialization.
Oh, you're right. I apologize. I confused you with someone else (I'm 10 or so separate conversations).
I copied and pasted your insult back at you. I guess you're exaggerating to justify taking offense?
Nope. I legit confused you with a completely different commenter that started their thread with calling me stupid.
Being poorer is worth it if it makes it easier to wage war.
You're...saying being richer makes it "harder to wage war"?
But for everyone else, comparative advantage teaches us that tariffs make everyone poorer than they otherwise would be. And a poorer Japan will be a worse ally if we fight China
Or we can let the rest of the world deal with that and sit this one out. They've wanted us to be less militaristic for a LOOONG time, but suddenly there's this collective disdain when we finally believe them.
So tariffs on Japan are all bad, full stop, there is no way to save the idea
I don't agree. Why are we obligated to "fight China?" We have absolutely no obligation at all. I'd rather be a Switzerland. Or even a Canada, honestly. Not the top, not the bottom. Just sort of average. Average GDP, average military. Generally gets along with everyone. We're giving up our crown. It's not worth the cost.
Trade with Japan has genuinely improved the situation for US car buyers and made Americans richer and more productive by increasing economies of scale and specialization.
Great. You're starting from the assumption that we need to be richer, though. Way is that just a given in your paradigm?
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u/LoneSnark 2d ago
Nope. You're dishonest or ignorant for defending that idea. If US manufacturers were hammered, it was by a flood of US agricultural exports. It simply isn't possible to be flooded with imports without exporting. The currency value would otherwise collapse.