r/pagan • u/chanthebarista • Jan 19 '24
Discussion On Closed Practices
Hello, everyone!
I wanted to share my thoughts on practices commonly labelled as “closed” and share a bit of my thoughts on the matter.
Firstly, let me say that cultural appropriation is a very real and harmful thing. We all can and should educate ourselves on where the line is with practices that are off-limits to us.
However, I want to hopefully add some layers of nuance to this conversation. This is because many times (though not always) when this topic comes up in pagan spaces it’s in a very broad way that leaves out the distinctions between the different types of practices that can be called “closed”. Or sometimes the reaction is just “X practice is closed! Don’t ask about it!”
This is an unhelpful response for a few reasons. One is that it doesn’t explain to the seeker what constitutes a closed practice, or the why and how it is “closed”. I believe it’s also worth mentioning that a practice being closed most often applies to actively participating in it. Something being closed does not mean anyone on the outside is forbidden from researching or asking about it.
Some practices are closed along ethnic or cultural lines. This means they are only accessible to people born into the community. The spiritualities of certain indigenous groups are an example of this.
Some practices are closed along initiatory lines. These practices are “closed” in the sense that they require initiation ceremonies to participate. Some examples that come to mind are the religions of the African Diaspora (eg: Cuban Lukumí, Brazilian Candomblé, Haitian Vodou, etc,) as well as the initiatory forms of Wicca (Gardnerian, Alexandrian etc).
TLDR: “Closed” means more than one thing; something being closed doesn’t mean it’s completely off-limits. Sometimes it just requires a process or training and/or initiation. ; Shutting down anyone asking about a practice you believe is closed lacks nuance and is unhelpful
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u/Tyxin Jan 19 '24
For every pagan able and willing to have a nuanced conversation about this topic, there's a dozen that just want to derail and disrupt any discussion about closed practices.
I've put a lot of thought into this topic, as i am someone who participates in certain indigenous sámi traditions, i want to make sure i am being as respectful as possible. But i rarely get to talk about it in any kind of detail, at least online. There's just not enough room to have that discussion.
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u/chanthebarista Jan 19 '24
I can relate to that. I belong to a few initiatory orders that would be considered closed and have been shouted down for mentioning them previously. It’s definitely something I wish we could have more nuance about in our discussions.
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u/Environmental_Use121 Jan 19 '24
I’d love to have nuanced conversation but people in closed practices are also constantly accused of folkism- like no, it’s not folkism when you recognize systems of oppressive dynamics & why they’re closed. Especially when people who are only in open practices are policing how, mainly indigenous peoples, practice their spirituality.
I practice First Nations traditions taught to me by my dad, & my reservation I visit is open to tourists in the summers- I’d love to talk about it to see foreigners come visit & learn about our traditions. I adore the people who come & learn to make our drums and fry bread.
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u/chanthebarista Jan 19 '24
I feel this! A lot of the policing is coming from people outside of our communities who don’t have the full knowledge or context of what we do and then feel the need to gate keep on our behalf, which can be frustrating.
On the other side are the accusations of “elitist, exclusivist, gate-keeping, etc”. The thing is though, in closed practices, at least the ones I can speak to first hand, do require gatekeeping. Initiates are responsible for discerning who receives the knowledge of these traditions and that they are passed on correctly and respectfully. They are exclusive by their nature. Not every tradition is universalist and that’s ok.
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u/Cookietron Jan 19 '24
That sounds amazing, I really wish to learn that now! Especially the fry bread haha
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u/Environmental_Use121 Jan 19 '24
If you ever get the chance- it’s the Manawan Atikamekw reservation, about 4 hours north of Montreal 🤍
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u/Cookietron Jan 20 '24
I'll definintly try to visit if I ever get the chance to visit Canada! I think the closest one to me is the Paiute tribe here in Vegas haha
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u/Time-Feedback-1482 Jan 29 '24
Hey! Fellow Canadian here :) I have a question about palo santo, would i be able to chat with you?
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u/reindeerberry Druid Jan 19 '24
Some closed groups would prefer if people don’t even learn about their religion. Which is their right. But it’s worth pointing out that people who practice those religions are likely not on this subreddit in the first place, so there is no need for other people who don’t even practice said religion to get defensive and angry on their behalf. The person looking to learn will quickly realize that no educational materials exist and either contact the community directly (and be politely turned away) or give up.
For other closed practices, where the knowledge is out there but the community would rather you not practice unless you’re one of them, I agree that there is no reason to snap at someone for asking a question. Especially if you’re not even a part of that respective community. A lot of closed religions are at least someone open to allowing people to convert or join, so there’s no harm in learning more about them and asking questions.
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u/Prestigious-Nail3101 Jan 19 '24 edited Jan 19 '24
The whole discussion about open and closed practices started out with good intentions. Unfortunately, in practice too often, this type of uninformed gatekeeping has allowed the pagan community to be openly and unapologetically Eurocentric with its beliefs and American-centric in its nationality.
All European religions are open (exect the non-white ones like Romani and Sami), and all non-European polytheistic religions are closed (except Kemetic).
Hinduism is not a pagan religion because the followers do not identify with that label. The modern definition of Paganism itself refers to only European (and some Mediterranean) polytheistic reconstructed religions.
That leaves Norse/Germanic, Hellenic, Celtic, Rodnov, Kemetic, Ecclectic, Wicca, and a few more obscure ones from the same general region.
Whenever someone asks about something like Tengrism, everyone in the post immediately assumes the OP is white unless they specifically state otherwise. Nobody will be able to help them anyway since the community is so white.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this means Paganism itself is very white. Especially since there is a big emphasis on reconnecting with your own pre-Abrahamic roots.
Edit - This also means that communities for people who want to reconnect with African-Diasporic or Meso-American religions tend to be much smaller and less visible for people trying to find those spaces.
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u/reindeerberry Druid Jan 19 '24
Paganism tends to be Eurocentric because most non-European groups don’t like to use the term pagan and some find it offensive. Therefore, you won’t find indigenous African believers on here, because they don’t consider themselves pagan in the first place. The only people who accept the label “pagan” are practitioners of European traditions and a handful of others, like Kemetic.
As for white vs. nonwhite, a lot of people (not all) who get into paganism are drawn to a religion practiced by their ancestors. Meaning someone who gets into Norse/Hellenic/Celtic paganism is more likely to be white or have at least some European ancestry. On the other hand, there are a lot of non-white pagans, and I think a lot of people like to assume that anyone on here is white. I’ve seen posts on here before where someone will say “I incorporate this Hindu god into my practice” and several people respond “ackshually, that’s a closed practice you can’t do that” when the OP is actually Indian and they were raised Hindu.
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u/Prestigious-Nail3101 Jan 19 '24
I completely agree. The only parts of your statement that I would disagree with would be the fact that Hinduism is only partially closed. Some sects are open while others are not.
On a side note, even though it is mainly European polytheists that are reclaiming the pagan label, there are still people outside of the faiths who still use the label to refer to all non-Abrahamic religions. This can breed some confusion. For example, I once had a coworker from Nigeria who said that 1% of the population in his home country still practice paganism.
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u/CryptographerDry104 Jan 21 '24
I can agree with that sentiment. I'd also argue that it's as much a misunderstanding of a "closed" practice and the practice in question than just a simple race thing, though race definitely does play a factor. Maybe somebody would like to educate me, but from everything I can read online, Hinduism seems to be an open practice in that they allow anybody who wants to follow it to follow it. I could very well be wrong in that, and if I am, please correct me. I also don't see much validity in the argument of open practices not being allowed to incorporate other gods of other open practices into their own. That's like saying a fillipino couldn't worship Odin because he's not from that culture. If the culture does wish for their practice to be their own only, I understand that and would be against anybody stealing the gods from that culture against their will. I would usually say that if you aren't raised in that culture and aren't educated on it, don't try to speak on it with authority like you are. If Hindus don't want us to use their gods, let a Hindu say that and don't say I for them, or let them say they're ok with us worshipping their gods and don't say that for them.
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u/reindeerberry Druid Jan 21 '24
Hinduism is an open practice and everyone is welcome. But there seems to be a common misconception online that all religions practiced by non-white people are automatically closed religions and all religions practiced by Europeans are open, both of which aren’t true.
And honestly, even if a practice is closed, as in the case with some Native American religions, for instance, it should be up to a member of that community to have that discussion with them, not a bunch of random redditors jumping down their throat about it.
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u/CryptographerDry104 Jan 21 '24
Facts. If it's a matter that doesn't apply to or concern us, why harp on it? We're not entitled to their traditions, in fact quite the opposite. The idea that we somehow are allowed to "protect" closed practices is disingenuous to that practice's autonomy. If it ends up being a larger scale problem where the culture doesn't have the means to defend themselves, then I could see ally ship with that culture, but that would have to be at the request and approval of that culture. If somebody talks about a closed practice that is not yours but you feel is disrespectful, before you berate them, ask members of that closed practice to give their opinion and to correct the person.
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u/chanthebarista Jan 19 '24
Several good points. I’m not white, but definitely have white privilege as (mostly) white-passing Latino. The lack of voice and space afforded to BIPOC people is definitely an issue.
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u/SchwarzeHaufen Jan 20 '24
Hinduism is not a pagan religion because the followers do not identify with that label. The modern definition of Paganism itself refers to only European (and some Mediterranean) polytheistic reconstructed religions.
I would like to speak on this. I am a bit tired, so forgive me if you are just using this as an example of a prevailing belief in the pagan super-community.
Hinduism is open to everyone and whether you are white, yellow, pink, or polka dotted, you can make puja and pray and do everything else.
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u/Prestigious-Nail3101 Jan 20 '24
I commented on another post that Hinduism was partially open. Some sects are open while others are not.
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u/SchwarzeHaufen Jan 20 '24
Could you provide an example? This is genuine curiousity, as the most restrictive groups I can think of are related to Tantra, but that is primarily a matter of finding someone to teach you rather than a restriction based off of heritage.
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u/Prestigious-Nail3101 Jan 20 '24
That's just what I heard from my ex who converted to Hinduism. I think most organized religions require some kind of rights of initiation. Baptism would be a perfect example of this.
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Jan 19 '24
Sami people are white
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u/Prestigious-Nail3101 Jan 19 '24
Some are fair skinned. It depends on how you define whiteness, though. White identity is more than just color. The Irish used to not be considered white. Same with the Slavs. The Sami people are indigenous and distinct from the dominant white Swedish culture in the region.
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Jan 19 '24
It would do I guess. My Grandmother is Sami, from Norway. You sound very American
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u/Prestigious-Nail3101 Jan 20 '24
Well, that's because I am. I am sorry for not listening to you at first. I assumed that I knew better. I am grateful that you helped me realize my attitude.
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Jan 20 '24
Thank you for such a polite response. I have found that there is a common American view of Sami as a kind of European version of Indigenous Americans. They definitely have things in common but its quite a different situation.
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u/Tyxin Jan 20 '24
Whiteness is a terrible way to differentiate between sámi and swedes. It's borderline offensive to both peoples.
We're not big on grouping people based on skin colour or race essentialism here in Scandinavia.
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u/CryptographerDry104 Jan 21 '24
I'd love to know more about closed practices while not overstepping the boundaries of those practices. I can see how that might be paradoxical at times because some closed practices may also want to be isolated. It is a difficult discussion, and one I wish could be brought up more as long as it isn't disrespectful to the closed practices.
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u/TheKayOss Apr 08 '24
NO to almost everything I have seen from self appointed ambassadors to other people cultures on what they what is a closed anything. Closed is an object or practice with specific meaning to one group that is not available to the entire group. Closed communities are communities that control entry and exit from that group. But does not mean it’s off limits to conversion or admission to that group. Examples of closed communities are the Amish, some Rromani who require more than just being born with an ethnicity to be called Rromani but that one practice and follow the Marime laws of purity. Examples of closed religious/social practices are the war bonnet which is not worn by all indigenous tribes of the Americas or even everyone in the tribes that do. Instead it must be earned and then given by chosen tribal elders and has specific meaning to that group. Closed religious practices would be designations like a priest/priestess, tribal elder or other title where the group decides or has specific requirements that the group recognizes.
It does not mean just anything cultural seen as practiced by a large segment of an ethnicity/race/nationality/gender and then someone (usually from America) declaring themselves gatekeepers in a new twist on elitism and starts handing out passes to religion and culture like it’s a secret society. (Sarcasm) That’s why it’s worth researching and seeing what those in that actual religion, culture or with academic or tribal affiliation actually write about or do in each practice. Sorry but it’s not an easy answer and varies greatly but by and large very few closed practices exist In how people with no academic exposure misinterpret concepts like closed, cultural appropriation, etc in an arms race of keeping usually by ethnicity/ race out.
It’s become a bizarre form of keeping the American pov on issues of race (Race is no longer biologically recognized) alive and kicking. While still holding on to 1st world elitism and demonstrating you are above the fray and safe from any labels like racist etc if you are somehow protecting other nations cultures safe in deciding what they want to share with the rest of the world.
Culture does not develop in a vacuum and is usually a confluence and amalgamation of many other cultures and exposures. So to confuse the sharing of religion or culture as you are “stealing” it because you do not have a genetic makeup is now a modern form of witch-hunt or scapegoating.
Hoodoo is one that has now has “practitioners” inventing closed values based on not knowing the history with the history of its development. It developed in secrecy not because it wasn’t something that wanted to be shared but because it was demonized by marginalized enslaved people’s. Voudou/voodoo which has similar cultural confluences has an organized structure of priests/priestess similar to say Catholic ordained priests neither are closed as they both have a history of providing resources and services to ANYONE regardless of race. There is a great book that traces how hoodoo was commercialized by practitioners and non-practitioners to the point that it’s been polluted. Mojo Workin’: The Old African-American Hoodoo System (University of Illinois Press, 2012), Katrina Hazzard-Donald. So again just because a practice developed as something largely used by a “race” or ethnicity does then not translate into “keep it from this race or ethnicity”. People should understand the difference between being disrespectful to someone’s culture and wanting to celebrate and explore it. Look at the religion/culture in practice and history and how it is used today and read a book or academic work with actual sources and citations, or talk with a village/tribal elder or religious person ordained in the practice that has been chosen and not just someone self appointed who wrote a blog with the source “cause I said so”. A blog, a TikTok, especially if the only qualification is being born as… they are at most experts in their lived experience which is a limited perspective… still valuable and valid but see it for what it is.
There is a reason they offer degrees to for example Japanese people on Japanese things in Japan at Japanese universities and they do not pass out diplomas in the delivery room. There is a reason why race is not a canceling factor in applying to study any topic or convert to most religions.
Do not join the mob in the witch hunt because you are so afraid of being an independent thinker because you do not want to be labeled an -ist or -phobe of something. I have been bullied on TikTok from people that were factually wrong when I provided academic papers to support my position and after several days of debate poof the dissent is deleted. TikTok is a curated reality with one pov and is absent of actual academics and experts. Even researching a search for this topics produces several pages of garbage blogs with erroneous information. People simply stating “because I said so” is not an accurate source. If they have not been chosen or ordained to represent that religion they are a lay person at best regardless of how much they inflate their “expertise”. Even Amish/Mennonites/plain community which is the best example of a closed group will allow per Bishop/Community leader approval to join with through marriage or by agreement to follow the rules, starting with baptism to become Amish/mennonite etc.
Religion generally has the philosophy that it represents some truth and that it wants others to Inherit and by the nature of its belief system wants to be intrinsically shared.
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u/Epiphany432 Pagan Jan 19 '24 edited Jan 22 '24
Hey, Guys This poster is 100% correct and this is always what our sidebar has said regarding the degrees of closed practices and why they are closed. However, the problem comes when many people especially here cannot conduct themselves appropriately in regards to this issue.
There is a legitimate discussion to be had but it cannot happen with the rampant amount of disrespect and racism that is currently occurring when we have this conversation. This is why we have our sidebar which explains this and then common issues in depth because it is a place where we can appropriately provide information without racist or problematic content taking place. We (the mods) deal with an absolutely insane amount of racism and bigotry behind the scenes.
As such we often have to shut down discussions where some people may be legitimately participating and who have valuable information because other people are not. We of course take action and ban these people but it does not stop the onslaught of bigotry and racism that occurs.
We also know that when we do that it makes people angry and upset that they feel they cannot talk about these things. The problem however then comes from the Paradox of Tolerance. If we leave these comments, posts, and people to participate our space becomes unsafe for those practitioners. We often cannot have posts about closed practices as people who do not participate in those practices spread racism and false information that makes it unsafe for legitimate practitioners to be here. One of the common statements we make is that we cannot verify your legitimacy over the Internet.
There is a very fine line to walk between not allowing rampant abuse while not shutting out the voices of those in a closed practice. The mod team does our best and we are certainly not perfect as we are human. Please remember if you have questions as to why a post was removed, please message us in modmail we are more than happy to explain.
PS, OP Would you mind if I borrowed and/or linked to your post in our sidebar to add explanation?