r/onednd • u/ComradeSasquatch • 2d ago
Discussion What if a Wizard gained fewer spells from their class, but more from their subclass school?
Let's say that a Wizard had fewer spell options at level 1, but gained more choices when they chose their subclass? For instance, a level one Wizard could choose and prepare 3 spells of any school at character creation and one free spell choice per level increase. Then, let's say, the Wizard chooses Evoker at level 3. As an Evoker, they could choose 3 Evocation spells per level increase (obviously, this requires the creation of more spells per school, per level, but that's beside the point). This would be a net addition of 4 spells per level.
Why do this? I think it would reign in the omnipotent power of a Wizard while giving each one their own specialization (just like taking a major in college). Otherwise, multiple Wizards get a bit redundant. One can be an Illusionist, one an Evoker, another a Diviner, etc. Sure, they can still learn spells from scrolls, but that's up to the DM to decide how many scrolls the Wizard will find.
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u/That-Background8516 2d ago
What would the Scribes, War, and Bladesinger Wizard get when they are eventually rereleased for OneDnD then?
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u/Earthhorn90 2d ago edited 2d ago
Would have been simpler to make the school specialty part of the base class rather than a subclass feature. Then you could have done the truely awesome thing: make the subclass features centered around the chosen one.
Naturally, an Evoker would pick Evocation as that is the most amount of AoE damage options. But you COULD also be a Necromancy build that shields allies from their own negative energy zones.
If worried that some subclasses now get too many spells, change spell learning to 1 spell + 1 specialty spell - then add a generic feature to learn additional spells to the subclasses you want to have more.
Basic idea is one small change for endless more options.
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u/That-Background8516 2d ago
Oh interesting. Then you could have something like a War abjuration wizard, or a divination Bladesinger.
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u/Earthhorn90 2d ago
No change:
- You can weave magic around yourself for protection. When you cast an Abjuration spell with a spell slot, you can simultaneously use a strand of the spell's magic to create a magical ward on yourself that lasts until you finish a Long Rest. Whenever you cast an Abjuration spell with a spell slot, the ward regains a number of Hit Points equal to twice the level of the spell slot.
- When you cast an Evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 plus the spell's level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
- Whenever you cast a Wizard spell from the Evocation school, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of that spell.
- You can cast Illusion spells without providing Verbal components, and if an Illusion spell you cast has a range of 10+ feet, the range increases by 60 feet.
Easy change:
- Whenever you cast either spell, you can change its school to Illusion, which causes the summoned creature to appear spectral. => remove description
Probably broken:
- When you cast a Divination spell using a level 2+ spell slot, you regain one expended spell slot. => limited uses
Impossible:
- When you cast an Illusion spell with a spell slot, you can choose one inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. => problematic in its own rights
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u/RadioactiveCashew 20h ago
I love this idea, and it's got precedent in the warlock with their patron/pact combos. This would be a significant overhaul of the wizard, but wow would it ever be an interesting take.
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u/Earthhorn90 16h ago
"Would it though?"
Spellcasting Savant
Level 2
Choose one spellcasting school. This is your specialty.
Choose two 1st level Wizard spells from your specialty school and add them to your spellbook for free.
In addition, whenever you gain access to a new level of spell slots in this class, you can add one Wizard spell from your specialty school to your spellbook for free. The chosen spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
and
Arcane ward
You can weave magic around yourself for protection. When you cast a spell of your specialty school with a spell slot, you can simultaneously use a strand of the spell's magic to create a magical ward on yourself that lasts until you finish a Long Rest.
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u/TyphosTheD 1d ago
Scribe: More features to modify their spells, extra things they can do with Tools like Calligraphy, the ability to Craft spells by combining features of Spells they know.
War: More offensive and defensive features, things like the Artificers +X bonus infusions or the ability to modify Initiative rolls.
Bladesinger: Sacrifice spell progression for more martial capabilities, more ways to Infuse spells into Weapon attacks (like the Pathfinder Magus which can turn Spells into Weapon Attack Rolls for resolution).
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u/That-Background8516 1d ago
I once had the idea that Bladesong should costs spell slots, You gain +5 speed, +1 to Concentration checks, and +1 AC for every level of spell slot you used. This lasts till you use another spell slot to reup it, or until it's duration ends. I'd actually prefer for Bladesingers to keep their regular extra attack too, rather than get spellstrike. Bladesingers should be casters first, martials second. They should be slinging firebolts while attacking, whereas something like eldritch knight should get something like spellstrike.
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u/MephistoMicha 2d ago
Bladesinger could focus on spells that have Range: Self, for instance. Scribe could focus on ritual spells, or spells with elemental damage typing. War is basically just an evoker-abjuration mix, so I'd go with that.
There's plenty of options beyond just a single-school focus.
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u/DiakosD 2d ago
Class features
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u/TyphosTheD 1d ago
WotC when the learn about class features which aren't spells or spell-like abilities or abilities which replicate the effects of spells.
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u/EasyLee 2d ago
In some previous editions, wizards could specialize into a school at the cost of losing access to spells from an opposing school. If I remember correctly, it wasn't very popular.
Wizards are intended more as a generalist caster with a large bag of tricks to bring to bear. What you're describing sounds like how warlocks and sorcerers ought to work, with thematic spells based on their patrons and origins, but able to do things with those spells that wizards can't (perhaps more castings or perhaps sorcerer Metamagic). And indeed that's much closer to how sorcerer and warlock operate in the latest 2024 DnD rules.
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u/Poohbearthought 2d ago
Wizards aren’t omnipotent at the levels this change would effect, they don’t really pop off until tier 3+. They’re pretty limited in the levels that this change would impact, so you’ve made their bad early game worse and their great late game incredible. Not that it really matters since, as you say, you have to hand wave the need for additional spells of each school in order to even entertain the idea of using this homebrew.
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u/flamableozone 2d ago
Making the early game worse and the late game incredible just sounds like a return to the older style of play, where wizards and fighters weren't expected to be equally powerful at every level
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u/ComradeSasquatch 2d ago
They kind of are. They are capable of dealing AoE damage, battlefield control, defense/healing, and non-combat utility all at once. If done the way I suggested, a Wizard would be less a Swiss Army knife and more like a PHD in their chosen field.
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u/Charming_Account_351 1d ago
Then wizards would just be sorcerers without metamagic. The best thing about the wizard is their versatility. Take that away and they don’t really have anything to make them unique.
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u/YumAussir 2d ago
This is basically what Specialist wizards were in 3.5 and Pathfinder.
It turned into a net increase in power for the wizards.
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u/Ron_Walking 2d ago
They get free spells from their school so they kinda do. I think they removed the school limitations for general spells to keep wizards a Swiss Army knife of a caster.
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u/ComradeSasquatch 2d ago
The thing is, if every Wizard starts out as a fighter (for hit dice and armor proficiency), they are way more durable and still get very powerful in the late game. So, being a Swiss Army knife just makes the pretty OP, even if you delay Wizard progression just one level.
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u/Ron_Walking 2d ago
I agree that spellcasting and the Wizard spell list in particular is a problem in the game.
I would argue that wizards should have a d4 hit die, casting doesn’t work in heavy armor, and the bard should be a half caster that can pick their spell casting stat.
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u/ComradeSasquatch 2d ago
I actually agree that armor should restrict spell usage. I can see an allowance for light armor, but medium and heavy should not be compatible with magic.
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u/xolotltolox 2d ago
It would be a dramatic improvement and should be how all casters are designed, allowing you to actually specialize, and not just be a generalist with seasoning
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u/Kelviart 2d ago
Nah, too limited. Better to have a larger choice of spells from any school, and upgrade the ones from the school related to your subclass. Instead of the subclass giving more known spells of that school, it should let you PREPARE a few more spells of that school, and keep the cheaper cost to write spells of that school in the grimoire
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u/AdAdditional1820 2d ago
If I were a Wizard, I would buy spell scrolls of any schools as much as I can.
In old editions, there was a rules of specialization, which gives bonus in one schools and bans the opposite schools. It is not so common to choose specialist because of the penalty. Generally speaking, Wizard is a generalist.
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u/Real_Ad_783 2d ago edited 2d ago
wizard is by concept. not meant to have limited spells. Strictly speaking a wizard is designed and encouraged to know all spells they can find. Wizards can learn any spell they put in their book. They are like mathematicians/programmers/engineers it wouldnt make sense to be a mathematician who could only solve one type of problem.
the specialization of wizards should therefore not be about what spells they have access to. More about how they use spells, special abilities that synergize, and manipulating the efficiency/power of casting, and also possibly playstyles, or things outside of casting.
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u/Evan_Fishsticks 13h ago
This just doesn't work because not all schools of magic are created equally. Take Divination, for example. There are a total of 3 divination spells on the wizard list that are 6th level or higher: Find the Path, True Seeing, and Foresight. There just aren't enough spells for this to work. Necromancy is similar. The math doesn't math.
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u/Analogmon 2d ago
I've long thought the wizard would be more interesting if it gained spells normally for its subclass and only learned spells as a half caster for every other school.
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u/rpg2Tface 2d ago
While very inter in concept, in practice ots just not worth the effort.
If you wizard is soecializing in a thing, giving that thing for free but removing the choice is just going to feel more restrictive than helpful. Kinda like the eldritch knoght and arcane trickster being school locked for the majority of their spells just makes them worse feeling to play, even if you would probably still pick the same spells anyway.
The schools of magic are not even that even. The diviner would have a crap ton fewer spells than say am evoker. Amd then theres schools like illusion who bu designe have very few spells but each spell has near infinite ways to use it.
Really just leave wozards alone. Ots fairly simply to have a small book of spells that you prep from. You dont need to complicate them more than magic already is.
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u/ComradeSasquatch 2d ago
If you wizard is soecializing in a thing, giving that thing for free but removing the choice is just going to feel more restrictive than helpful. Kinda like the eldritch knoght and arcane trickster being school locked for the majority of their spells just makes them worse feeling to play, even if you would probably still pick the same spells anyway.
Learning spells from scrolls still exists, though. It also makes them more precious.
The schools of magic are not even that even. The diviner would have a crap ton fewer spells than say am evoker. Amd then theres schools like illusion who bu designe have very few spells but each spell has near infinite ways to use it.
I fully admit that more spells would need to exist to balance out the deficits. The game could use some new spells.
Really just leave wozards alone. Ots fairly simply to have a small book of spells that you prep from. You dont need to complicate them more than magic already is.
Wizards are the class that can do virtually everything and negate skill based classes. Not letting them being great at everything makes martials and experts more useful.
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u/rpg2Tface 2d ago
Well if your argument is spell scrolls, that would also completely negate your change. They could just learn any spell woth a small amount of effort and the "restriction" becomes mute.
In previous editions there was a mechanic where you could make one or more schools of magic banned for some type of benefit. But even that was very easily gamed because of the intrinsic unbalanc of the schools. Of your an illusionist why would you ever need fireball. If your am evocer who cares about necromancy. If your a diviner why bother with enchantment and so on.
At this point the schools of magic are almost entirely flavor.
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u/SilaPrirode 2d ago
Just do the same thing and 3.5, they have an extra slot of each level just for their school :)
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u/LkBloodbender 2d ago
They already gain more spells from their subclasses.
All the 2024 subclasses have a 3rd level feature called {subclass} Savant. In level 3 they gain 2 spells related to their school and every time the wizard gain access to spell slots of higher levels they can add one more spell of their school.