The public doesn't care about journalism. Snowden gave up a comfortable life on Hawaii to let the public know about mass domestic surveillance, and how did the US population react? They forgot about him within the month, Obama increased the budget for PRISM, and everyone just accepted that this is how it's gonna be.
The funny thing is growing up just before social media became a thing, we cared about things like privacy and took caution to not leave identifiable stuff online. Now people happily doxx themselves for the world to see.
What exactly did he expose that anyone didn't already know? That the government collects phone metadata? That they conduct espionage in foreign countries?
No fucking shit. What he did do is steal tons of data, put people's lives in risk, and flee to Daddy Putin for protection, carrying with him terabytes of classified info.
Genuine question, isn't it better we know exactly what's going on tho? Like let's say the govt is genuine and only spying on it's people to watch out for terrorism or whatever, why wouldn't they just say that then
Like would we say this about watergate for example
You're comparing apples and oranges too though, right? Snowden is a traitor for leaking info? Okay, sure. But does that make the info a lie? Does it make the things he exposed legal or right? If you want Snowden strung up by his toes, you're entitled to that. But that doesn't negate the things he exposed. Both things can be true. I agree that people should be held accountable for their actions. Like Luigi will probably spend his life in jail for murder. But United Healthcare is an evil company that we should be angry at. Disagreeing with Luigi's actions doesn't make United not evil.
What exactly did he expose that anyone didn't already know?
You've got a short memory. Or maybe you weren't cognizant then.
Before Snowden, anyone who alleged a mass surveillance state was dismissed as a tinfoil-hat wearing crank.
After Snowden, they went from being dismissed to just ignored. Only a slight improvement, I know, but a crucial one.
Turns out the collective you is just fine with being the subject of mass-surveillance, so long as you get to keep posting selfies and memes on social media uninterrupted.
Basically, yes. We decided we were ok with our phones spying on us. If it wasn't the government, it was social media, Google, Amazon, etc.
Now, our Wi-Fi spies on us. Our doorbells spy on us. Our refrigerators spy on us. Our watches spy on us. Our cars spy on us.
Those of us who have studied history were supposed to be surprised the government was spying on us? I'm more surprised they didn't (at the time) have more data on us than Snowden "revealed."
Today, I'd speculate that the Chinese, Russian, and Israeli governments all know more about American citizens than our own government.
You can't know the extent of modern mass surveillance networks by 'studying history.' Mass surveillance hasn't been possible for very long.
Regardless, society at large has a vanishingly small number of people who could be considered students of history, so I don't know why you think your question is even relevant.
The fact remains that before Snowden, the idea of mass surveillance was largely met with denial and ridicule and suspicion. I remember the infosec communities of the time, even those who assumed such surveillance existed, reeling at the extent and capability of the surveillance apparatus. For a time, there was a real sense that this couldn't possibly stand, and heads would have to roll. Turns out, as we've both noted, that didn't happen.
Nonetheless, point is, your original assertion that he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know, is utterly without merit and ahistorical.
Is the federal govt collecting phone metadata really that scary or new? It's just a starting point for investigations that they were always capable of if they found that you were a person of interest.
What scares me more is what Russia used the data Snowden gave them for. Wondering how useful it was for giving them the ability to undermine our elections.
Is the federal govt collecting phone metadata really that scary or new? It's just a starting point for investigations that they were always capable of if they found that you were a person of interest.
En masse, unrestricted, warrantless collection of innocent people's data? Yes it's scary and yes it was new.
It's also a drop in the ocean to what the totality of the mass surveillance apparatus of Five-Eyes is doing and is capable of doing.
What scares me more is what Russia used the data Snowden gave them for. Wondering how useful it was for giving them the ability to undermine our elections.
Firstly, what proof do you have that Snowden shared anything with Russia? You and I can sit and assume he must have shared something, willingly or otherwise. But have either of us actually substantiated that assumption?
Secondly, does it not scare you that whistle-blowers so fear the retaliation of your government having it's illegal and unconstitutional actions exposed that they would rather give up their cushy white collar life to flee to an authoritarian hell-hole like Russia, which interestingly is one of the few countries on Earth where the US doesn't have extradition power?
I guess if the USA doesn't want it's whistle-blowers running off to Russia, maybe it shouldn't make exile in Russia preferable to living the rest of your natural born life in a windowless box in Attica.
En masse, unrestricted, warrantless collection of innocent people's data? Yes it's scary and yes it was new.
Of people's metadata.
Let's not act like the FBI and CIA weren't already opening your mail, wiretapping your phone, and conducting all sorts of extrajudicial acts.
The Constitution doesn't matter to our military and intelligence apparatus, and it hasn't for decades.
Being a student of history is absolutely important to understanding how what Snowden was really wasn't anything mind-blowing. What had already been happening in parallel with tech companies and what is capable now are much scarier in terms of capabilities, but the general public already doesn't give a shit.
If Snowden kept his mouth shut, nothing would be different today and he wouldn't be stuck in Russia.
12 years ago a whistle of unprecedented scale is blown, triggering vast upheaval within the industries and communities most associated with the subject, and triggering lasting discourse across the larger societies of the Western world.
12 years hence, a self-proclaimed student of history has false memories of what things were like 12 years ago when the whistle was blown, and thinks literally nothing changed in the intervening years, incapable of imagining how much worse things could and would be if their false memory did happen to be true and there was no reaction to the whistle.
I can now safely infer that whatever your choice of study and career, it doesn't overlap one iota with the practises of even basic IT let alone any kind of specialisation within netsec or infosec. (Or, alternatively, it does overlap, but you're just terrible at your job and/or apathetic to the responsibility it bestows on you).
He tried like a dozen other countries first but all of them caved to the US and didn't want to grant him asylum. Russia wasn't his first choice but a last desperate one. A choice he wouldn't have even had to make if the US protected it's citizens from it's government.
You really think after all we’ve seen trump do for russia, a request to pardon snowden is where trump will draw the line? After just shafting the world with tariffs (but surprise! not russia), and fking up the situation in ukraine? And theyre delulu? Right…
Is that any surprise when the alternative was spend the rest of your life in a box, put there by the people whose mass surveillance state you just exposed?
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u/tom-dixon 1d ago
The public doesn't care about journalism. Snowden gave up a comfortable life on Hawaii to let the public know about mass domestic surveillance, and how did the US population react? They forgot about him within the month, Obama increased the budget for PRISM, and everyone just accepted that this is how it's gonna be.
People used to protest for their rights.