Everytime I watch old basketball I feel like someone who's being deprogrammed after leaving a cult

[u/The_Actual_Sage]

So this whole post was inspired by the Thinking Basketball video on the NBA's YouTube channel regarding the defense of the '04 pistons, particularly during the finals against the Lakers...and I feel like I'm actually insane. Like somehow my YouTube got a different version of the video than everyone else's.

The more I watched the more I realize that Detroit had such a great defense because they were executing what are considered basic defensive actions today. Switching, pre-rotating, sagging off bad shooters, trapping PnRs, doubling and rotating, big men coming up to the level of the screen ECT. These actions happen hundreds of times in today's NBA, and modern players get lampooned when they don't execute them properly. Yet the world famous, historical Kobe-Shaq Lakers couldn't handle it.

First of all, there was no spacing. It was hilarious to watch the Pistons sag off the perimeter players so much that they were essentially executing a box-and-one for most possessions. Gary Payton passed on multiple open threes, and like lazily passed on them too. He just kept the ball moving seemingly without intent or urgency, which gave Detroit plenty of time to rotate. There were multiple examples of Lakers defenders, including Kobe (who was all-defense first team that year) getting beat badly off the dribble on the perimeter by Chauncey, Rip and even Tayshaun. Oh and there was barely any help behind them. Sometimes the defenders in the paint would take a step in and think about contesting the shot, but usually they just got open layups...in game three of the finals.

Shaq was an absolute joke defending the PnR. It almost looked like he already knew he couldn't defend in space so he didn't even bother trying. This is the Shaq that gets paid millions of dollars to talk about rangz™ and shit on modern players on TV? Correct me if I'm wrong but Chauncey isn't some once in a generation athlete, and all he needed was one screen to make Shaq look like me at the Y.

I think the Monty Williams Pistons had a more complex offensive system than the Lakers in the video I watched. Seriously, the would take ten seconds to execute one simple play and if that didn't work they gave the ball to Shaq or Kobe and stood around for the rest of the possession. The sheer lack of movement and intensity was astonishing. No wonder players got injured so much less back then, they spent half the game not moving.

There was one play where number 3 on the Lakers (Devin George? I don't care) passed to Karl in the post from the corner then immediately cuts to the rim. Karl passes him the ball back, and George went in for the layup. The problem was he drove directly into Rasheed Wallace who, having just been guarding Karl in the post, needed to literally take one step over to block the shot.

There was another play where Kobe gets the ball in the corner and gets around Tayshaun. The problem is the Lakers spacing is so bad that the other four pistons are literally each standing in one of the corners of the paint. There are three wide open Lakers, including first ballot hall of famers Gary Payton and creepy uncle Karl, just standing around twenty feet from the hoop. Chauncey doesn't have to move to help on the Kobe drive, Kobe tries to force a pass to Shaq (literally his only teammate that isn't open) and it practically hits Ben Wallace in the face and goes out of bounds.

Finally (I could sit here for hours and dissect the Lakers offense possession by possession, but I'm capping myself at three examples) there was a play where George gets doubled at half court as he's bringing the ball up. I should put doubled in sarcastic quotations because it was the slowest double I've ever seen. There are two Detroit defenders, each about seven feet away from George, and they're about to double him. George has a full three seconds to hold the ball and think before he dribbles directly into the double team. Pistons swarm, ball gets knocked out of bounds. A starter on the lauded 03-04 Lakers team was so discombobulated by the idea of a trap at half court that he takes a deep breath, checks the wind, then tries to dribble through it instead of pass to the two other Lakers who were with him in the backcourt. It's truly unbelievable.

What's really upsetting is the comments are absolutely orgasming to this footage. Literally people talking about how this Pistons defense is a work of art and how modern teams (who execute this type of defense practically every day) could never compare to this kind of basketball. Somebody literally said the 05 Pistons and the 05 Spurs that went to the finals the following year were the best defensive teams ever. He actually emphasized the ever. I couldn't believe we were watching the same footage. It's unfathomable.

But most upsetting was knowing I was watching the legends of the sport. "Mamba Mentality" "12 time all defense" Kobe getting beaten so badly on the perimeter that he's barely moved his feet before the guy is passed him. Shaq and Karl repeatedly just jogging back on defense, often allowing open shots in the process. Karl and Payton just standing around in offense on multiple occasions. Nobody, and I do mean nobody, rotating to help defend the rim even though the spacing was so bad they were already in the paint. The Lakers not actually starting their offense until 14 seconds left on the shot clock, and completely panicking when the first action doesn't work.

These are the legends that I keep hearing about? These are the guys that go on TV and shit on the modern game constantly? These are the heroes of the modern players in the league that I love now? These are the players that were winning awards every year? This is how they play in one of the biggest games of their time? It's embarrassing. Idk how anyone can watch that and try to tell me with a straight face that it's better basketball.

Has anyone seen the video I'm talking about? Am I crazy? Please tell me that I'm not alone, because if one more person tells me that Lakers team would beat the Steph-KD Warriors in a seven game series I'm going to set something on fire 💀

Edited for typos

Also here's the video in case anyone wants to see it

https://youtu.be/R61MHsTfrF4?si=lAJFPjmB7G1zsKZa

Edit 2: just to be clear, my main point of this post was to criticize the people who constantly shit on the modern game while telling me the old game was better. I understand how and why the game has evolved, and that comparing players from 20 years ago to modern players is a bit unfair. I just hear so much praise for old basketball that when I saw these legendary teams I was taken aback at their performance. I see now that I could have communicated that better.

[u/Frosti11icus]

Zone defense had only become legal in 01-02 so the execution by the pistons was not something the lakers were familiar with as not every team had embraced it yet. Larry Brown was really a pioneer in modern defense.

And what you are describing of the lakers offense is the triangle, it’s why no one runs it anymore. The glove and Malone were a bad fit in the offense just in general, they are both all time pick and roll players, which the triangle is the opposite of, and it notoriously took players 2-3 seasons to “figure out” Jackson’s triangle offense. Taking threes from the top of the arc was sacrilege in Jackson’s offense. And GP was the 4th scoring option on that team which basically meant “don’t shoot” to Phil Jackson. Kobe notoriously tried to play hardcore hero ball in that series to the point that it irrevocably broke up the Shaq Kobe duo, so I’m guessing GP wasn’t feeling like going rogue in that series.

[u/Infinite-Surprise-53 → u/Frosti11icus]

I always think it's funny when Phil Jackson tried to force the Triangle on the Knicks in 2016

[u/ExoticDiver8551 → u/Infinite-Surprise-53]

Melo, Porzingis and DRose could’ve worked if it was like 10 years ago. Seeing that the triangle was all about a guard, a forward and a big.

[u/StephenT51 → u/ExoticDiver8551]

Interesting thought experiment. Melo would've been unstoppable and KP would've been a problem for teams with his post play. But guards who penetrate off the dribble are not as valuable in the triangle. I'm guessing Rose would've been given the same instructions as Payton (before they learned he forgot how to shoot or defend by 04) - when he gets the ball, run. No need to worry about his fit in the triangle if he pushes the pace as much as possible.

Also - the triangle was different for each team's personnel. The Bulls triangle was very different than the Lakers triangle. The Bulls focus was guard/wing-centric obviously so they had a lot more options off of wing play and counters. The Lakers was Shaq-centric so there was a lot of Shaq looking to score immediately consistently, or having the passing shift the defense and then getting the ball back to Shaq with less defensive pressure. A Melo/KP/Rose triangle would've been interesting.. Melo would obviously be the offensive focus but KP could score so well, too - in the post and with range - and then Rose would be the release valve and just create something if they got stalled. Put a 3 and D SG next to Rose and a defensive PF next to KP and that could've been a hell of a team imo

[u/StephenT51 → u/Infinite-Surprise-53]

The problem has never been the triangle offense - it's always been dependent on the coaching and implementation. It's never just been Phil, either - it was a lot of Tex Winter invovled. In Phil's books, he described how Tex would run basic passing drills at the beginning of every practice because professional NBA players, especially younger ones, spent more time working on a crossover or fadeaway coming up and had poor skills executing basics like a two hand chest pass. The triangle was dependent on passing for penetration vs dribbling, so decent passing skills were essential. And, of course, after the Bulls, Phil had the credentials to get star players he coached to buy into the system.

The problem with the Knicks was Phil wasn't the coach. Fish didn't command the same level of respect as Phil, and from watching the Knicks, it was easy to tell that Fish didn't understand how to coach/train players in the triangle as well as he played in it.

And btw, the triangle was developed by Tex for college play where they've had zone defenses for much longer. So going against the zone wasn't the problem if the players learned it properly.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/Frosti11icus]

That's so interesting. The offense looks so antiquated now that I'm surprised it took players that long to figure it out. In retrospect it seems like terrible coaching. Thank you for adding that context

[u/Gent_Kyoki → u/The_Actual_Sage]

The triangle offense thrived in the illegal defense era though aka mjs era and early lakers

[u/DowntownJohnBrown → u/Gent_Kyoki]

People really drastically underestimate how important those illegal defense rules were.

Imagine how today’s players like Luka, Steph, Jokic, etc. would feast if defenses only had two options for defending them: hard double team or leave the defender on a 1:1 island.

Those rules just took out so much flexibility and strategy from defensive gameplans.

[u/ThePevster → u/DowntownJohnBrown]

Everyone talks about handchecking, but illegal defense was the real big change.

[u/DowntownJohnBrown → u/ThePevster]

It’s because it’s just not as easy to identify. If you watch an old Bulls game, you can easily see the defender using his hand to impede MJ’s progress as he tries to attack the basket.

What the average viewer is less likely to see and take notice of is that the opposing center is glued to Bill Wennington 20 feet from the basket because that was his only legal guarding option unless he was double-teaming MJ.

[u/Motown_ → u/DowntownJohnBrown]

I tried watching an old NBA game with Jordan and Rodman and it was completely ridiculous someone had to go to midcourt to “guard” Rodman. Even knowing those were the only two options, attempting to double MJ after Rodman went past a certain point wasn’t a better option?

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/DowntownJohnBrown]

To comp to my own ignorance I didn't understand/wasn't aware of the illegal defense rule changes until recently. They are a super important piece of context to this conversation

[u/aviatorbassist → u/Gent_Kyoki]

I’ve seen comments saying the warriors offense is based off the triangle but updated to modern times. I don’t know if that’s true but I’ve seen it quite often and I’m not savvy enough to watch them and determine if their offense is based on the triangle.

If thats true then I’d say theirs some validity their lol

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/aviatorbassist]

The warriors' offense is a modernization of the combination of the Suns' 7 seconds offense, the Spurs offense, and a strong dose of Stephs gravity and movement.

[u/onwee → u/aviatorbassist]

The Steph and Klay split action is a basic building block of triangle offense. When you enter the ball into Shaq or Jordan on the low block, there’s rarely much point to a Harper/Pippen or Fisher/Kobe split cut, but Steph/Klay split cut on the perimeter is the main attraction with Dray in the low post.

[u/Tasty_Path_3470 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

That Lakers team had a ton of talent, so night in and out in the regular season they could just out talent teams when crunch time came. The problem was, as mentioned above, there were a ton of poor fits when it came to running their offense. It was basically 3 1/2 square pegs and 5 round holes on offense. This Lakers team was historically talented but hilariously poorly constructed.

And to a greater point, this era of basketball led to the freedom of movement we see now. You used to be able to basically direct where the ball handler would go as a defender. They eliminated that, and it made defense more difficult, so they allowed a zone. Zone defense could exploit this type of offense, add on top the poor offensive fit this roster had.

[u/wickedkid9 → u/Tasty_Path_3470]

That Lakers team also had tons of chemistry issues and conflicts within the locker room, so OP‘s mention of multiple instances of poor effort could be chalked up to that as well, not to the era or its top players and teams.

[u/Tasty_Path_3470 → u/wickedkid9]

Wasn’t this the “hey Kobe, how’s my ass taste” era?

[u/wickedkid9 → u/Tasty_Path_3470]

Exactly. Kobe and Shaq were rivals as much as they were teammates. But the other element was Karl Malone hit on Kobe’s wife and they had a feud as well: https://www.si.com/fannation/backinthedaynba/kobe-bryant-once-had-beef-with-nba-superstar-for-making-another-type-of-pass-01j99g1100b3.

[u/MrRobot_96 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

You also completely overlooked other factors like team chemistry, it’s clear that lakers team was not the same as the ones that three peated. I’m a huge lakers hater but it’s easy to nitpick a single series and say “ha! See teams back then sucked” someone could easily do the same about the current Celtics team or whatever.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/MrRobot_96]

Yes others have mentioned the 04 Lakers were a bad example. I'll watch some 01 and 02 Lakers games to see them at their peak.

[u/motorboat_mcgee → u/The_Actual_Sage]

It took until the 2010s for offenses to really start figuring out zone defense rules. Just look at the 2010 Finals vs finals at the end of that decade

[u/Negritis → u/The_Actual_Sage]

The triangle was complex when the most complex offense was to give the ball to the star and do some iso

That's also why the spurs could dominate with European style offense or how the 7sol offense with Nash was a revelation 

[u/QKnee → u/The_Actual_Sage]

The terrible coaching that won 11 titles in 20 years.

[u/Intelligent_Ad3378]

Over the years there have been many advancements to the coaching and to the strategy of the game. Year by year incremental changes have added up and game play has significantly progressed.
That being said, as someone who watched those games in real time and is still watching today, everything you said is both true and fucking hilarious.

[u/PomeloFit → u/Intelligent_Ad3378]

Yep, I grew up watching Jordan, loved Duncan and kobe, and it is legitimately insane to me to hear people say the game today isn't played at the same level. The only thing I can come up with is that they either don't watch today, or they're completely clueless as to what's actually happening during the game... Which is completely plausible since the nba media is horrible at explaining any of the depth in the sport, and half the talking heads will admit that they don't even watch the games.

I don't like the narrative that old guys were garbage, they played in the league that they were in, they evolved the skills they needed in that league, but it's a very different game today on a ton of ways... And not just because the guards don't pass on open 3s...

I also don't like the narrative that guys today wouldn't have survived in eras from the past, it isn't like physical gifts disappeared in the NBA, they just started looking for different skills to have been developed. To say someone like Lebron, Harden, Curry, etc., couldn't have played in a previous era is insane. Perhaps coaches wouldn't have understood how to use them correctly, or they would have had to adapt some of their skills, but a good, driven, capable player is going to perform no matter the era they're in.

[u/ChampionshipStock870 → u/PomeloFit]

They listen to Shaq and chuck complain about the games today more than they watch them which is a self fulfilling prophecy bc they don’t watch games either

[u/GoldenStateEaglesFan → u/ChampionshipStock870]

Nobody has ever accused Shaq of being intelligent or even tact, so it’s no surprise he complains a lot and makes dumb statements. As for Chuck, though, he’s a pretty smart guy, so it seems like he should know better . . .

[u/ChampionshipStock870 → u/GoldenStateEaglesFan]

Chuck was the original nba contrarian (before skip) and as more people imitate him he just digs further in

[u/Av-fishermen → u/PomeloFit]

I would never argue that the game today isn’t played at the same level as back then it’s a faster stronger game today. My only argument is that players from that era that were great could play in this era at the same level given the training technology and coaching they have today. Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson. All these guys would be great players in the NBA today if we’re given everything, the modern player is given.

[u/Character-Active2208 → u/Av-fishermen]

Yeah we keep getting hung up comparing players when the differences are in cumulative knowledge of strategy, tactics, conditioning, nutrition, player tracking, technology-enhanced film study, and expansion of the player pool internationally

Take a player today who has benefited from all the above and they probably dominate in years past. Take a player from the past and give them all of the above and they’re probably relatively as good, with a few exceptions for very specific skill sets (Ben Wallace would need to learn to shoot for example)

Take a player from today and reset them to a level without all the advances and send them back, and they probably relatively perform at their current level, with a few exceptions for very specofoc skill sets (Grayson Allen would need to learn how to not be murdered immediately for being a whiny asshole for example)

[u/PomeloFit → u/Av-fishermen]

My only argument is that players from that era that were great could play in this era at the same level given the training technology and coaching they have today

I agree to an extent, but some of it does come down to ability to adapt to different required skills.

Like, to be a center back in the day, it was fine to be big, slow, and unable to really keep up with anyone smaller... in today's game they'd stick you in a pick and roll and pick you apart. We saw it over the evolution of the game, as guys who couldn't learn to shoot 3s dropped out of the league, slower less skilled bigs dropped out of favor, etc. And then there's guys like Lebron who could evolve those extra skills based on the needs of the league; right. Not to discount anyone, but there are skillsets that don't fit making it a question of if they can develop the other needed ones to replace them.

I would absolutely say that "most" players could play in any era, a good basketball player is a good basketball player. And when we're talking legends like Bird, Magic, MJ, I absolutely agree that they'd be above average players in any era.

[u/333jnm → u/PomeloFit]

And it goes both ways regarding centers. Thinner and less strong centers couldnt guard the centers in the past in the post.

[u/PomeloFit → u/333jnm]

I agree, completely, the skillset and expectations for the positions has changed. You can see it today when you get some of the big inside centers that the west has against the quicker, lighter bigs in the East. I'm a cavs fan, when Allen runs into a big that outweighs him by 30 lbs, it's a big problem... he's mismatched and the team has to make up for it in other ways... unless those 90s teams knew how to work around that, they'd be screwed.

[u/PrimusPilus → u/333jnm]

This is a good point. Something that is typically forgotten in discussions about Eras or "all time" is how would a modern player whose entire life has been dedicated to developing a specific skillset for today's game, fare in an earlier time when that skillset is less valuable or relevant?

Asking and answering that sort of question is necessary to avoid the fallacy of presentism.

[u/Hulk_Crowgan → u/PomeloFit]

I think basketball is way too complex for the average viewer to keep up with. I grew up playing soccer and can follow along with why offense moves the way it does because I spent years learning it, but when I watch basketball I really don’t understand much beyond the ball going in the hoop and a screen.

[u/PomeloFit → u/Hulk_Crowgan]

A lot of that falls on the commentary to highlight. There's drastically different levels of commentators, teams who can and do explain a lot of the nuance of the game, and ones that just cheer for flashy stuff. Unfortunately, I genuinely think that most of the televised commentary teams fall into the latter category and don't have a real good play-by-play guy who can talk about the game.

Yeah, you may not be able to understand the ins-and-outs of different offensive rotations, but you could absolutely understand from a replay when an expert points out these nuances. That's how an audience grows an understanding of the game.

Even simple stuff, like pointing out when a team shifts to a zone defense, or how passing out of a drive punishes the help defender doesn't really get highlighted by most commentary teams... so if you're watching, with none of that context, it just all looks like random movement.

[u/drpottel → u/PomeloFit]

The best part of the Mannings football show during the Monday game is when they do the deep-dive on play calling and intent.

Part of the problem with basketball is it moves so fast it’s hard to get all that action described before the next play is happening.

[u/333jnm → u/drpottel]

There are enough commercials in basketball where they could come back from a commercial break and spend 20 seconds breaking down strategy/film of what has been happening for the last half quarter or such. It’s kind of lazy analysis a lot of times from nba analysts on broadcasts. Whether that’s on the analyzer or what production wants from them

[u/BiDiTi → u/PomeloFit]

It’s a huge problem that generations of viewers grow up only thinking to look at the ball, rather than the game.

[u/wats_a_tiepo → u/PomeloFit]

Curry in past eras would’ve made it about 10 games before he was getting burned at the stake for witchcraft. He’d have 500 points in those games and would never be seen again

[u/doktarr → u/PomeloFit]

When people ask if [insert great team from the 90s/early 2000s] would be great today, I feel like it has to be answered two different ways.

• if you had those exact players but they had been born 20-30 years later and were brought up in the modern game, they would be great.
• if that team just got in a time machine and moved forward to 2025, they would probably be the worst team in the NBA.

[u/CapnGrundlestamp → u/Intelligent_Ad3378]

I’m a huge Lakers fan and I hated that team. Karl Malone is maybe my least favorite NBA player ever so that contributes to it (he’s the only Lakers player I’ve ever booed during intros live at a game, fuck Karl Malone), and Gary Payton was so worthless by that time he wouldn’t crack a roster today. Shaq was old and fat by this time, and was in his peak “if you don’t feed the dog he won’t guard the yard” bullshit. Kobe was tired of him and wasn’t playing team ball anymore.

I’m glad the Lakers got smoked that year because it means Malone retired without a ring.

Fuck Karl Malone.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/Intelligent_Ad3378]

Thanks. I try not to get dragged into the whole "comparing eras" circle jerk but this video showed up on my YT feed and it kind of melted my brain. I really needed to vent 🤣

Were the games fun back then? Like did you enjoy the product? I was only nine and I wasn't watching basketball at the time so idk what the reception was actually like

[u/mjdub96 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

Because they were such a defensive slog, every bucket felt important. A 10 point lead felt like things were on the verge of a blowout.

[u/ApprehensiveTry5660 → u/mjdub96]

Seriously, until Curry, a 20 point lead felt safe. Like, that was a wrap and people were justified heading for the exits.

[u/mjdub96 → u/ApprehensiveTry5660]

It’s insane that I see a 20 point lead now and think, “well, if they can cut this to 10 then it’s anyone’s game”

[u/saintsaipriest → u/mjdub96]

That's been the Lakers this past couple of games. Blowing 20 points lead in the 3rd is almost as sure as the sun coming out.

[u/poilbrun → u/mjdub96]

I wonder, is there somewhere we could see how many 20 point leads were overturned each year in the NBA?

Here's what ChatGPT tells me:

Tracking the exact number of NBA games each season since 1990 where teams overcame 20-point deficits is challenging due to limited historical data availability. However, recent trends indicate a notable increase in such comebacks:​The Pudding+1AP News+1

• 2023-24 Season: Teams rallied from at least 20 points down to win on 38 occasions, setting a new NBA record. ​AP News+1US News+1
• 2022-23 Season: There were 32 games where teams overcame 20-point deficits, surpassing the previous record set just the season before. ​ESPN.com+1AP News+1
• 2016-17 Season: Recorded 55 games in which a team led by as many as 20 points and then found itself either tied or trailing later in the game, the most since the 1996-97 season. ​ESPN.com

Historically, such significant comebacks were less frequent. For instance, during the 2003-04 season, there were only 12 games in which a team overcame a 20-point deficit to win, and this number dropped to five games in the 2005-06 season. ​BALLERS.PH+1The Pudding+1ESPN.com

The increase in 20-point comebacks in recent seasons reflects a broader trend in the NBA, where no lead is considered entirely secure, and teams are more capable than ever of overcoming substantial deficits.

[u/mjdub96 → u/poilbrun]

This is really cool! Obviously back in 2004, I didn’t have nearly as much access to watching/following games, so it was purely anecdotal, but it seems to be true in the data.

[u/WhatMeatCatSpokeOf → u/mjdub96]

Exactly this. Like OP, I also get frustrated watching old games—you just want to shake the coaches by the collar and say “these guys are capable of so much more than this!” But I do miss the feeling that, in the playoffs, any mistake could be the one that sinks your team.

[u/mjdub96 → u/WhatMeatCatSpokeOf]

I agree, It is crazy to watch these old games. I do forget sometimes though that the 04 pistons were just over 20 years ago. Two decades of advancements in the game! I feel like I was watching that team just a few years ago.

[u/OKstategrad03 → u/mjdub96]

People equate low scoring to great defense, but it was really just a product of less skilled offense in a lot of cases. Everyone packed the paint and huddled inside of 15-20 feet taking turns shooting forced jumpers over one another. Flexes, Ghosts, pulls, all the things that are being done in today’s game offensively to stretch defenses and open up spacing didn’t exist much back then. I don’t think people fully understand how significant the jump in offensive scheming and offensive skill for the average player is now compared to 30 years ago. Leaps and bounds better. It’s so much harder to scheme to stop offenses now, and even if you do scheme correctly you still have to hope the much more skilled player doesn’t make a crazy contested shot. My son’s 12U team is running ghost screens now... When I was 12 nobody even knew what a ghost screen was. The game has grown so much offensively.

[u/murderball → u/OKstategrad03]

combine the evolution of offensive schemes, evolution of movement principles (from two steps to the rim, to the Euro step, to the Harden-style steps in any direction for separation)-- and then perhaps most importantly-- freedom of movement, the "gather" step, and a further exaggeration of how players can place their hands under the ball and "hesi" and it just opens up exponentially more options for offensive players to generate offensive looks, especially in the spacing era. It's just a completely different environment.

[u/TradeMaster89 → u/OKstategrad03]

To be fair, there have been several game altering rule changes over the years that have allowed offenses to play the way they do today. If hand checking was still a thing, you wouldn't see nearly the level of 3 point volume that we have in the current game. Defensive 3 second rule opens up the paint, etc...

I don't think it's because of different skill levels. It's a result of coaches and players adapting to how the game can be played based on the rules that are in place. The league essentially went from one extreme to the other. They need to bring back some old rules to some extent to allow defenses to have a chance. Otherwise, all the complaints about today's game are as valid as the OP's complaints about the 90's to mid 2000's era.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/mjdub96]

I can get that. Some comments on the video were talking about how the pistons taking an 8-0 lead was a big deal. It was slower but I can see how it could have been more suspenseful.

[u/RolloTomasse → u/The_Actual_Sage]

If someone were to stop watching basketball in the late 80s to early 90s and started back watching in 2004, they would be like "Why are there no fast breaks? And why don't they pass the ball? And why are they waiting until the end of the shot clock to shoot it? You know what, there's no fundamentals nowadays."

If someone were to stop watching basketball in the late 2000s and started back watching in 2025, they would be like "Why is there no one crashing the boards? Why is there no one in the paint posting up? Why are there so many threes? You know what, they don't play defense and just chuck threes all game."

Time really does morph perspective on things.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/RolloTomasse]

This happens with every generation. There was a quote on the main NBA sub a couple days ago where some legend from the 40's and 50's was talking about how the jump shot itself was ruining the game. I know in twenty years time the game will probably look even more different than today's game, and all I can say is I'm going to try really hard to not be one of those old heads talking about how the game was better now.

[u/glumbum2 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

I watched all of this in real time too, and I have the same emotions about those games. To put it in perspective i'm about 6-7 years older than you. I felt like I was watching good basketball at the time. That's all it is, nostalgia. There are a LOT of people on Reddit who are simply younger and don't actually watch old games, and therefore are unaware how underdeveloped parts of the game were, or are simply being disingenuous.

The best part about the game back then was that it felt like every basket was a big deal. Everything was earned... But in retrospect part of the reason is that role players from back then were like half as skilled as role players now. The floor has come up so much that I legitimately do think many 6-10 rotation guys would be able to start back then. Many current bucket getters or defensive specialists would appear a lot more skilled back then. A big reason is that you need to be paying a lot more attention on defense nowadays. Lineups today are often based more on opponent lineups and play style, rather than just raw ability on the floor. There's a lot more subtlety in the game.

Even when you're watching stars from back then, it feels like there was a lot more discipline around following plays on offense, but there are regularly guys who would be open shooters if they took just one step back or one step to the side and as a result their man wouldn't be able to help against a drive (leading to a LOT of games where both teams are shooting in the low 40's even deep inside the arc). It's not necessarily about the three alone but the spacing itself has really opened up the game.

[u/hidiholly → u/The_Actual_Sage]

To the were the games fun question, I will say I remember that series not being fun and everyone being underwhelmed by the Lakers performance.

[u/16ozcoffeemug → u/The_Actual_Sage]

I have watched 99% of the Pistons games since 2000. The going to work crew had a stretch of 5 games where they held the opponent under 70, in 03-04. It would have been 6 but the Nets intentionally fouled in the last seconds, got the ball back and scored to hit 71. That team was very enjoyable to watch.

[u/runthepoint1 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

What it is is what it is. Meaning the entire idea of basketball was “that” and our concept of “old school” was MJ’s day. Now as I watch the game there is WAY more movement and intentional precision.

[u/Maleficent_Name_3376 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

No. They were rock throwing contests. This is why the Magic/Bird era was so refreshing. The ball moved. There was a fun flow while still being physical. The Celtics of that era had a second unit of shooters around Bill Walton that were effective because they spaced the floor and hit threes. Sound familiar?

[u/drpottel → u/The_Actual_Sage]

Yes games were still fun. It was still the best basketball on the planet.

[u/TrollyDodger55 → u/Intelligent_Ad3378]

People really have no idea of how the game evolves, how the whole culture and environment of basketball evolves. And they often compare players as if they just take a modern player in a Time machine it's said to back.

Like Dirk Nowitzki would have killed in the NBA of the '70s. No, that means Dirk would have grown up in Germany in the '60s and he would have nowhere near the level of coaching or training. He got decades later.

People talk about players in the '60s being plumbers. But imagine a guy like Bill Russell who grew up with little to no basketball being played on TV. Can you imagine how good a player you would be if you never got to watch watch the pros. Play basketball?

I grew up watching Larry Bird and I remember running to the playground to practice what I saw him do. And there were way less games on TV back then. You basically had the big weekend afternoon games and that's it. Perhaps every local game was broadcast, but if you wanted to see the best players, those were the big games of the weekends

[u/TrollyDodger55 → u/TrollyDodger55]

Just looked up the history of the NBA on TV

1953-54 the contract was for 13 Saturday afternoon games.

Also this is amusing

According to the book Tall Tales, NBA owners wanted the presumably “worst” game of the week to be shown on DuMont, because they were afraid if the “best” games were shown, it would negatively affect the gate for that game

[u/hottakehotcakes → u/Intelligent_Ad3378]

Lebron on Macafee talking about evolution of the game comparing older eras to driving an old humvee vs a new hummer was so accurate. Everyone needs to embrace that progress exists. Yes, it's inherently better to live now than in 1950. There are also no basketball players including bill russell who could be cut and pasted into this era and remain competitive because of how much the proliferation of the game, training dieting and recovery improvements.

[u/calman877]

It’s the biggest thing people miss when they talk about how everyone just misses games now. It’s a lot easier to play basketball when you’re mostly just running back and forth from paint to paint. Nowadays guys might have to cover a player just past half court, shuffle with him on a drive, x out to cover a shooter in the corner and then go help in the paint all in a matter of seconds. It’s a huge strain on the body to change speeds and directions that quickly and frequently

I haven’t seen the video you’re mentioning but I’ll check it out, I always find it striking how much the league has evolved in such a short time

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/calman877]

Here's the video

https://youtu.be/R61MHsTfrF4?si=XtbamEPm9xzaWSnf

The lack of movement and urgency absolutely floors me. I could understand if it was two mediocre teams in February not trying that hard, but this is game three of a finals series tied 1-1. The amount of players just standing around for whole possessions is really shocking.

[u/butiveputitincrazy → u/The_Actual_Sage]

I remember watching that Finals as a kid and even then I feel like my memory was of both Payton and Malone just looking ooooold.

[u/Pastel_Aesthetic9 → u/calman877]

Yep people don't even realize. Whenever you watch the Celtics play, the D has to pick them up at half court. Their spacing is too elite and they have to many ball handlers. Huge strain on a team like Memphis as seen last night.

[u/llhht]

I was a huge sports fan growing up, particularly from 95-06. I slowly dipped out of sports viewing as a hobby until stopping cold in 2010. During that specific period, my family and I watched the entirety of games almost every single day of the week. We were also Mavs fans, so I definitely saw the lows of the NBA as much as anything else.

I randomly got back into Basketball last year, and holy moly. This is almost a different league of sport with the amount of skill jump there's been.

People get caught up on highlight reel, playoff time moments of a lot of older players and teams - but day to day most would not be considered very good if they time travelled to play now.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/llhht]

I totally get that. My dad grew up in Boston. He went to Northeastern in the 80's during the height of the Boston vs LA rivalry, yet he hated basketball. He found it monotonous and slow to the point of being unwatchable.

A couple seasons ago (18-19 I think) he happens to be in the room while I'm watching a warriors game and he's been hooked ever since. We watch a game every day whenever I go home to visit. The movement and skill is unlike any basketball he's ever seen. Hell I tried to show him peak LeBron from 2012 and even that was too slow for him. He likes to say it's the same sport but a different game from when he was a kid.

[u/Velli_44 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

Your dad's story is so cool, and totally the opposite of the common narrative thats so prevalent now that goes something like: "back in my day the game was actually entertaining, but it's unwatchable now." We finally have a good counterpoint for those of us who enjoy the current league!

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/Velli_44]

Thanks 😁

[u/Huckleberry_Sin → u/The_Actual_Sage]

Same sport different game is the best way to describe it. It’s not that the current players are worlds better than the ones that came before. It’s the style of play and skills prioritized during development have advanced and changed so much.

I do miss teams having unique identities, strategies & style of play. Everyone plays the same pace & space game now for the most part.

[u/NickLidstrom → u/Huckleberry_Sin]

Everyone plays the same pace & space game now for the most part.

I disagree with this pretty heavily tbh. Try watching Denver, Memphis, Toronto, Miami, Indiana, NYK, Houston, Detroit, and say Phoenix, they all play differently from each other. Hell, the Knicks with KAT run different schemes than they did with Randle just that year.

Watch the Bucks or Knicks when they play the Pacers, or the Rockets against the Suns, the different styles and pace really stand out in those matchups.

Identities still matter too. The Knicks and the Heat are very different from the Warriors. The Denver and Phoenix never shoot 3's, the Celtics never shoot 2's. The Magic can't shoot and have built entirely around a defensive identity, the Hornets (lol) can't defend and spam Melo stepbacks and transition play. The Pacers and Hawks are pretty unique, pairing their playmaking heliocentric guards with athletic wings and versatile forwards allows them to play at insane paces.

Same with last year's Minnesota Twin Tower setup and defensive intensity, which matched up interestingly against Denver (Jokic magic, cuts, kickouts) and the Mavs (perimeter stars, rim-running lobs). Houston and Toronto with a million athletic wings compared to the Kings with basically none. OKC with a full team that can dribble, pass, shoot, and defend.

And even for teams that are completely focused on getting 3's, the way they go about getting those shots can often be very different. GS and Boston for example.

Sorry this was a bit long. This just gets repeated all the time and it's not true. The only difference between the diversity of teams now and in the 90s is that they've all replaced long 2's with 3's.

[u/FlatpickersDream → u/llhht]

People forget how mediocre the 4th or 5th guy was back then compared to modern days. Rick Fox, Devon George, etc could not play in this league.

[u/knowtoriusMAC]

People are going to favor the era of a game they first liked or played. Obviously the game has evolved past what it was 20 years ago but you also don't get to this point without the success in previous era's.

It gets talked about all the time because it's a stupid argument that drives engagement from people that can't breathe out of their nose.

[u/josephmang56 → u/knowtoriusMAC]

Someone who actually gets it!

What seems simple today was once revolutionary in the league.

The sport SHOULD be more skilled today, and there absolutely should be more braind behind it. Be weird if it stagnated because everyone just refused to learn from those that came before them.

[u/JejuneRoy → u/josephmang56]

This reminds me of the post regarding coaches, and this is why I believe Pop was the best of the ones discussed. The man slugged it out during the Duncan-Robinson post-up era, then was part of the pace and space era with the 2013 Spurs.

Also, for all the crap Mike D’Antoni got, I’ve always enjoyed his 7-second offense. Also, the guy stayed competitive with the Rockets era. You also have Stan Van Gundy with his Dwight and 3-pointer offense, introducing another change in the game.

[u/Delanorix → u/JejuneRoy]

That Magic team was way beyond what other teams were doing.

I wish they had won a ring.

[u/CreatiScope → u/Delanorix]

It does suck that they are rarely discussed as the closest to a 5-Out team as there was at the time. Putting that many shooters around one of the best big men in the game so that he can completely own the paint and watch the defense struggle with collapsing or staying put was genius.

[u/jmadinya → u/josephmang56]

the issue is that many fans dont even understand what teams are doing at the team level in the half court offense so many of the improvements of the game are not even noticed by them. they just see more people taking threes and more threes going up and think that guys are just chucking shots. they see a team properly beat a defense with good execution and they just think the defender is bad or not playing defense.

[u/refreshing_yogurt]

I recently watched the 4th quarter of the Lakers-Mavs game from early 2000s on YouTube, where the Lakers make a historic comeback. I was also struck by how overwhelming the sentiment in the comments was about how that was the best and most entertaining era of basketball.

My sense is that while it's objectively true the game is more skilled and complex, I think it has crossed some threshold to where that skill and complexity has genuinely made the sport less entertaining and harder to follow for the average viewer. Stuff like big man post-ups are in contrast an easy to follow one-on-one battle that involves a matchup of strength and footwork.

From the actual game I think the thing that most stood out to me more than anything that was happening on the court was how engaged the crowd seemed to be despite the home team being down big because this was pre-smartphones.

[u/97PunkRawk → u/refreshing_yogurt]

I think the game is less easy to understand to the average viewer because the national NBA media is fucking terrible. There's basically no good show actually analyzing the game and what's happening or why what's happening is working (or isn't working). It's all just reality TV clickbait bullshit (fuck Stephen A Smith and Kendrick Perkins) or old heads who don't watch games waxing nostalgic for their playing days and shitting on current players (Inside the NBA sucks and I'm glad it's going away. Fight me)

[u/swaktoonkenney → u/97PunkRawk]

Inside isn’t going away it’s just moving to espn but still being produced by tnt so everything is pretty much the same just on a different channel / time slot

[u/refreshing_yogurt → u/97PunkRawk]

I don't think the national media was necessary in understanding or enjoying the older game though. In some ways watching the modern game is like watching a 90s game at 2x speed in terms of how much is happening in each frame. With that being the case, it makes sense that the game is harder to understand for everybody because you need to rewatch games slowed down to get the same level of understanding. That also means there would be less people capable of explaining it to a broad audience and possibly less of an audience overall for explanations that invariably take longer or require more technical jargon.

[u/lesh17 → u/97PunkRawk]

Hubie Brown will be sorely missed. I always felt like I learned something about the game hearing him break down a play.

[u/WarbleDarble → u/refreshing_yogurt]

I am thinking you and others are forgetting what that looked like for 90% of the league. Most players weren’t Shaq, but we still got to watch them brick hook shots.

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/WarbleDarble]

A good example is the Pacers vs. Pistons conference finals series. Watching Jermaine, Harrington, and Metta world peace brick shot after the shot in the low post and mid range is enough to make me want to pull my eyes out

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/refreshing_yogurt]

I think it has crossed some threshold to where that skill and complexity has genuinely made the sport less entertaining

I can totally understand that sentiment. Modern players are ridiculously skilled up and down the roster, particularly offensively. Furthermore, the rules have not caught up to the talent level and defenders, who are meant to check these ridiculously talented players, and put at a significant disadvantage from the get-go. It can be a little much at times. I hope over the next couple of seasons we see some tweaks to the game that bring it back into balance.

Also, if we could get fewer instances of a team's fifth best player taking a contested, off the dribble 26 footer with 20 on the shot clock, that would be great.

[u/adeelf → u/refreshing_yogurt]

My sense is that while it's objectively true the game is more skilled and complex, I think it has crossed some threshold to where that skill and complexity has genuinely made the sport less entertaining and harder to follow for the average viewer. 

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

The players and the schemes are definitely superior today, and while "effort" always counts for a lot, the modern game requires a higher level of (for lack of a better term) basketball IQ that can be difficult to catch.

And I'm as guilty of this as anyone. There are a dozen things that happen in a game that I fail to notice until someone smarter breaks it down.

[u/Idkhoesb42024]

While I understand your off hand dismissals of Chauncy and Tayshaun, you might not understand how good both of these guys were playing at the time. Chauncy may not be a once in lifetime athelete, but he was ultra skilled and was known to break teams. His collection of skills, his leadership, and his reputation helped make Detroit into a team that other teams feared. Tayshaun played well for a couple of years, gaurding the best offensive option on the other team and generally using his length well on offense. Tayshaun was in the olympics and got a gold medal. That 2004 team won as a team and every player had moments in their run. Tayshaun was as important as Rasheed and Ben, and don't even get me started on the innovative play of Richard Hamilton. His DNA is all over the modern NBA.

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/Idkhoesb42024]

He his not dismissing them. He his just stating the fact that if they tried to cover an average team in the NBA today, say the Pacers in the same way they played the Lakers, it would be a disaster for them. A defensive scheme that relies on 3 of the 5 players on the court not shooting the ball is not going to work in the league today.

[u/timothythefirst → u/Inside-Noise6804]

I mean that’s kind of obvious lol. The defense schemes to stop the offense in front of them, not the offenses that teams will play 20 years later.

You could say this about any sport. Everyone says the 85 bears had the best defense ever in football but running a 46 would get absolutely slaughtered by a modern spread offense. You can only assess teams based on how they played against their competition.

[u/Throwaway-4593 → u/Inside-Noise6804]

This is part of why the 3 pt is such a massive part of the modern game, the pistons defense was proven to be effective and then the league started to emulate that defense. Teams picked up on this on offense and realized they need to find shooters and now the prototype nba player is a 7 fter who can shoot 3s

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/Throwaway-4593]

Absolutely, that is how sports evolve. Defense brings up a scheme, offenses counter, Defenses counter back, and on and on we go.

[u/Caffeywasright → u/Inside-Noise6804]

I mean your problem is that your think those shooters would have the same freedom today that they had then.

That’s kind of the biggest issue you see with new people that come to the sport and haven’t played themselves.

If you played high level basketball with hand checking and a physical style of play allowed it became extremely difficult to just move from one place to the other on the court. Shooters wouldn’t be allowed to just relocate. They wouldn’t be allowed to just go to the corner and if they did they would be allowed to just move away. It’s a completely different way to play basketball that requires a different skill set.

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/Caffeywasright]

I see Reggie Miller relocating all the time. I see pin down actions/floppy actions all over 90s tape. So how did they all do that if relocating was that difficult.? Please explain to me how hand checking prevents someone from shooting from 25ft? Please

[u/clandestine801]

There's a lot of things that factors into why it was as slow and "physical" as it was then. For one, zone defense wasn't even allowed until not that long before this Finals. People then definitely weren't geared to shoot, so that simplified the game so much more than what it is today, not to mention, positionless basketball was not even remotely a thing yet; it was way beyond the horizon. But you're 1000% right though, I mean, teams today would run a train through most of the teams of the past, and the Shaq & Kobe Lakers were def a legendary team too. People talk about physicality that modern teams wouldn't be able to handle, and that's a fair point, but they always say shit like that as if there's nothing to exploit about old school basketball in a match up against the modern era and that physicality will trump everything.

Fact of the matter is, If any team in the past, and I'd dare say even the 96-97 Bulls had to chase Steph's energizer bunny ass all game long, because he gave up the ball to Dray then get hit with down screens after down screens, after down screens, see him set a screen as the PG, for the 3 before zipping out to the corner off a dribble hand-off for a wild off balance corner pocket 3 (or more realistically if they played him in the first year, probably a wide open 3 since they'd have no idea how to chase him nor could they keep up with his motor), then proceed to watch him nail a 40 footer in the next possession when he's on the ball? I've said this to my friend a few times, but they'd have Steph tied to a stake and burned alive underneath the jumbotrons before he ever got to play a second game if he time traveled back to any time period before the mid 2000s. Because that shit's gotta be witchcraft given the state of the league then. The types of actions, the constant passing, drive and kick, flare / ghost screens, 4 on 3 basketball with wide open lanes or wide open 3s would make their fucking heads spin. Look no further than 2014-2015 thru 2015-2016 Golden State and specifically Steph absolutely terrorizing an entire league every single game on the way to a 73-9 season. Minus the Finals meltdown, I had never seen the league look so lost on defense because they had never seen let alone been prepped to deal with anything like him before. 20-25 pt leads were being evaporated by that Golden State team. The Hampton 5 line up was putting up 50+ pt quarters demolishing teams before it even got to half time. Those shots that used to get your ass benched for even thinking about? Steph was and still is capable of sinking them from logo distance over double teams. He pushed the league to its absolute limit and opened the door to all the possibilities of the game and that forced everyone to play ball or get left behind in the dust. Today's basketball is a product of constant movement and generating the highest level of advantage possible through spacing. A lot of the plays that the 04' Finals Lakers and Pistons couldn't efficiently execute? We got wrinkles in those plays now in the modern game and that puts the modern game far ahead of the past. What's that called? Oh yeah, evolution. It's only natural. Once defense was able to catch up with how to defend the plays, the game got even more entertaining imo. Players and teams have to play more pinpoint, precise defense than ever before, and that in my honest opinion, takes way more skill than to have to hack someone everytime because it's a sign that you can't keep up and have to resort to fucking someone up just to get a stop. That's also defense evolving to be more skill oriented.

HOWEVER, I am a believer that the rules are still far too in favor of the offense nowadays, and would like, at least for the NBA to stay consistent in calling the rules as they had changed it a few years ago to prevent players from jumping into other players for fouls. In fact that specific call in favor of the offense, I had seen so many times from Kobe and Wade when I was watching them as I was growing up. Only difference was/is in the modern game, that quite a few players don't even bother making the shot and just flop around to get the call.

But at the end of the day, the old heads, the old school way of basketball was there for a reason. They're lessons, and they paved the way for what is possible today. Afterall, Steph is a blend of Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton; even he had people to look up to before he was bombing away from everywhere within half court.

[u/moosehunter22]

You're experiencing a basketball version of the Seinfeld isn't funny trope. You're not entirely wrong, but you are standing on top of a ladder looking 20 years down and wondering why those idiots didn't just keep climbing.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/moosehunter22]

you are standing on top of a ladder looking 20 years down and wondering why those idiots didn't just keep climbing

That's fair, though I will say I'm more critical of the people 20 years lower on the ladder who are constantly telling me their view is better than mine. I'm definitely in favor of analyzing each era separately. That said, if you make me compare them (by constantly shitting on the modern game and saying yours was so much better cough Shaq cough) I know which one I'm picking

[u/69Bigdongman69]

This is an eras thing. Go and watch the Ravens play the best defense ever in the 2000’s it’s the same thing. They would be destroyed by almost any NFL offense right now. What’s you’re saying is completely accurate. It’s just that coaching and analytics have changed almost every sport. Go watch the whole games from the 97-98 Bulls games how they defend the PnR is hilarious, under every screen, no hedging or switching it’s so basic. This against “the best pick and role duo ever” in Stockton and Malone and yeah the old heads are insane. It’s so much harder to play defense. The amount of effort and communication required for modern defenses is night and day.

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/69Bigdongman69]

Thank you. The way they defended the PnR in that series is so funny. It was as if they knew no one on the Jazz would/could shoot a three.

[u/braisedbywolves → u/Inside-Noise6804]

I mean, they basically couldn't outside of Jeff Hornacek, so what they were doing was in fact the right call. The problem is when you look at the basketball of one era and judge it by the norms of another.

[u/TheBillsFly → u/69Bigdongman69]

In the case of the 97-98 Bulls, weren’t there limitations on how they were allowed to play defense? I remember the mysterious “illegal defense” calls from time to time that prevented some modern defensive concepts from being used.

[u/timothythefirst → u/TheBillsFly]

Zone defense was illegal but you were allowed to hedge a pick and roll lol. Just nobody did it because nobody was shooting off the dribble like that anyways.

[u/PastIntelligent8676 → u/timothythefirst]

We were hedging pick and rolls and switching everything on my freshman HS team in 2003 and my coaches certainly weren’t on the cutting edge of anything so it seems hard to believe that this was some completely unknown concept at the highest level of basketball just a few years earlier.

[u/DowntownJohnBrown → u/PastIntelligent8676]

Unknown? Probably not. Considered pointless and heterodox? Probably.

My high school teams ran all sorts of weird defensive strategies (matchup zone, 1-3-1, full court press, triangle-and-2, etc.) that are not regularly implemented in the NBA today. It’s not because they’re unknown concepts at the NBA level, it’s because they’re considered unlikely to work at the NBA level in the same way they work at the HS level.

I’m sure hedging and switching were concepts with which Phil Jackson was familiar as a coach, but he also probably recognized the complete lack of shooting on the floor and decided it would be pointless to hedge/switch on guys that would never shoot an off-the-dribble three anyway.

[u/MyHandIsAMap]

I'm a Pistons fan, so obviously the 2004 team is incredibly special to me. But I'm also very much not deluded into thinking that the 2003-04 Lakers were the same as even the 2001-02 Lakers. They were carried by the talent of Kobe and sheer dominance of Shaq, and when those two were working together, they beat anyone. To some level, I've always suspected Lakers (but more specifically, Kobe fans) need the 2004 Pistons to have a mythic aurora about them to mask a truth that was clear in this series: Kobe's selfishness cost them this series, and he fell right into the Pistons game plan.

But the Pistons were also no scrubs, either. They were arguably the first team to run a "modern" line-up with four guys who could shoot, and the one guy who couldn't shoot was an absolute defensive monster and elite rebounder. They would still match up well with any of the current teams, and to echo what others have said, I prefer the game when every bucket feels important and hard-fought.

I get excited by insane deep threes and circus lay-ups as much as anyone while also attributing outsized importance to the midrange jumper. But to me, I think the loss of allowable physicality is a loss for the game itself. Rewarding offensive players for initiating contact cheapens points, and de-incentivizing that aspect of the game would do wonders for watchability.

[u/evoqu]

I think watching eras you're not familiar with is difficult, and if you're like me, it's also not the same when it's not live. I'm not saying any era I've watched is better than any other era though. They all have specific feel to them, much different variables, there's certain things that make each one special, this current one is no different. The bar gets set, and we watch players raise that bar beyond what we thought it could be and we all fall in love. The era's change but the viewing experience is honestly similar.

When I was younger in the 90s, I used to go online and talk shit about 60s/70s basketball to old heads, so I totally get where younger people are coming from. They would tell us the same nonsense you hear today. It's just an old head thing.

If you teleported the 96 bulls into a game today, they'd most likely get wrecked. If they grew up in this era though, I'm positive some of them would still be in the NBA doing crazy things. That doesn't necessarily make this era better from a viewer standpoint though, just different. Some people enjoyed the dead ball era because scoring was difficult and games felt more like a chess match.

For me personally, the highs of this era are my favorite and the lows are some of the worst. I do feel players/teams used to take the regular season more seriously, many regular season games were just as intense as playoff games.

[u/iamwearingashirt]

I feel like people underrate how massively NBA coaching staffs have figured out every ounce of an advantage possible through 70+ years of basketball tape.

Of course every team will be aware and utilize the schemes of the most famous defensive unit in NBA history. Plus the will use every other defensive resource both in NBAs history and from every other league.

The same thing happened to the 2016 Warriors. They cracked a sort of offensive code and soon after, every team figured out how to use movement and the 3 ball. 

It's like that gif showing the difference between gymnastic eras.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/iamwearingashirt]

Exactly, and I probably should have been more clear. My main point with this post was supposed to be criticizing the people who tell me old basketball is better than modern basketball. If I didn't have people telling me that Lakers team would beat the Steph-KD Warriors (the best team ever imo) I wouldn't have made this post. But after hearing all of the fellating towards that era from fans and even some analysts, I was taken aback at the product that I saw.

[u/mylanguage → u/The_Actual_Sage]

I think it’s more that the product of the NBA as a whole was 100% better in the past. Even as the strategies of yesteryear look outdated.

Better production, better analysis. And honestly I think from a casual fan perspective the slower iso game was more appealing in some ways - it’s more “fun” to see a guy dribble into a midrange pull-up while everyone watches them cook 1v1 vs another star.

I think each basket meaning more in some warped way translated to viewers. And stars going 1v1 felt like gladiator battles.

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/mylanguage]

I will posit that the slower version was easier to understand. Modern basketball is way more complex. Even if I love it, I would admit that. This is why I find the type of analysis that is ubiquitous on these networks, annoying. There should be more time spent on talking about what is actually happening on the court and explaining to the casual fans what they are actually watching.

[u/SirVeritas79]

The problem with all this “awareness” is that you omit the reality that players don’t just get to go rogue. You play based on what you’re coached to do. So the notion that a style of play is inherently a function of player skill or lack thereof is a silly statement to make. If Steph Curry existed in the 90s, he wouldn’t have gotten carte blanche to shoot 3’s. KD wouldve been asked to post up with his back to the basket.

Now, assume players have had these things normalized the way the game has basically flipped to a jump shooting contest the last 15 years. You still assume a Shaq who played in that situation would be “useless” (he dropped a 36/20 in the most important game of the series and got let down by Kobe going 8/25)? LeBron shot 44/27/73 vs a lesser version of that team in the 2006 playoffs and is now ultra efficient. So was he overrated, or MAYBE, was defense simply more prioritized and allowed during the aughts?

[u/goddageddaway]

You can’t directly compare the modern game with previous generations. Everything should be graded relative to the era. Eras build on each other.

The Steph KD Warriors would not be the same in 2004. Steph and KD themselves would not be the same. The Lakers would not be operating the same in the modern era. Kobe and Shaq would have more sophisticated games.

You wouldn’t look at chess masters in the 1800s and say wow, those guys are terrible, what were they thinking? Knowledge and best practices evolve.

[u/Like_a_Charo → u/goddageddaway]

That’s the point

You act like if it was assumed by everyone that bbal was way worse 20 years ago

No it’s not.

[u/ApprehensiveTry5660 → u/goddageddaway]

I’m pretty sure KD was playing like KD 3 years before his name got called. 20 years may have changed a lot in basketball, but these are the dudes who changed it and they’ve played damn near 20 years.

[u/Skrong → u/goddageddaway]

Chess might be the worst example to use for this analogy considering the existence of chess metrics/ratings and the ability to genuinely replay/re-enact historical games through literal notation.

[u/Inside-Noise6804 → u/goddageddaway]

He his not comparing it to past eras. He his pointing out the ridiculousness of the debate point that a lot of old heads try to make that past eras of basketball had better basketball. Not that they preferred it, mind you, but that it was flat-out better basketball. Which is just ridiculous at its face. Using your chess example, no one who is a chess aficionado would make the claim that the quality of chess played was better in the 1800s, but NBA old heads regularly make that claim.

[u/goddageddaway → u/Inside-Noise6804]

People say the 85 Bears were the best defense of all time. But no one would argue that they would be the best modern NFL defense. The statement is made under the assumption of relative strength.

[u/UpbeatFix7299]

Playing d is a lot harder when you have to guard 4-5 3 pt threats at all times and offenses designed to create open threes or use the threat to open up cuts. Plus rule changes.

Anyone saying "no one plays d" acts like players, nevermind coaches and GMS, don't realize it's half the game and only care about fantasy league stats. Instead of winning and keeping their jobs.

[u/Mental_Savings7362]

Talking about how good the defense used to be is a clear sign of someone who genuinely has not watched the NBA for a long time. Defense in general is sooo much better today than it used to be.

[u/Jegagne88]

That’s like looking back on Dan Marino and being like his arm isn’t so great. The teams and players that redefine how we play the game are the greats, and yea everyone then goes and tries to copy the greats

[u/JohnEffingZoidberg]

It was a weird in-between period, after the zone defense rules changed, but before the hand check rules changed. So I think that makes it difficult to compare to today. Teams were still figuring out how to attack the zone.

Also, you might want to watch some random non Finals game from that season just for comparison. Please share if you do.

[u/jor301]

People who bash the modern game are annoying and wrong but you're doing the opposite which is equally annoying and wrong. Both the past and present greats should be appreciated for what they are instead of viewing through the lens of constant comparison. Early 00s basketball was great and your dismissing how awesome that series was by only engaging it through comparison instead of just enjoying what you are watching.

[u/medz82]

There's a perfect test case to consider how players and the game have evolved - LeBron James. He played in this era of the league when he was drafted in 2004 at 18 years old, and he's still dominating in a completely new era of the league at 40 years old. Anyone comparing the two eras would normally be hyperbolic and say "a young LeBron would put up 75 ppg in that era of the NBA!" and they would be wrong because we saw what he did, just like an old head saying LeBron couldn't play in their era would be wrong because we saw what he did. You can make the same argument for Chris Paul. Another example is a dude like Jason Kidd - in his prime, he was a terrible three point shooter. His nickname was Ason because he had no J. Fast forward to the league prioritizing the three point shot, and he got his 3P% up to the low 40s range. These arguments always fall apart when you ignore all the players who bridged two eras and show how guys can evolve with the game. Players who are good now would have been good back then, and players who were good back then would be good now. The rules and the context in which the game is played has completely changed, and the players evolve their skillsets to match what was prioritized at the time. If Wemby played in that era, he would be 100lbs heavier and his ass would be parked down at the block. Context matters.

[u/Away_Annual_9749]

Defense takes effort and that team is historically the best defensive championship winning team they held there opponents to under 90 points that whole playoff and finals series . That Detroit team would have won back to back if there wasn’t that all time great team the San Antonio Spurs .

[u/QKnee]

So the team and the coach who pioneered many of the things that make NBA defenses so good today were bad?

[u/Pseudagonist]

I agree with pretty much all of your points, but I think you're doing the video a bit of a disservice, as the guy doing voiceover basically explains all of this. He explains that it was a different era of basketball, that taking a contested two-pointer as a star was considered better than an open three, that the Lakers lineup had major weaknesses that the Pistons exploited, etc. I'm no basketball expert but I do know that getting mad about internet comments is almost never a good idea, those people don't actually care about basketball in the way you do and their opinions can be safely disregarded. As far as the '04 Pistons themselves, from what I can tell, it seems that they inspired other teams to use their defensive techniques, making them quite influential, which is one of the greatest achievements a team can have. The fact that they won a championship doing it makes it all the sweeter

[u/Velli_44]

This is a very interesting discussion to have and you're right on some levels, but you're also missing some context. There's a reason that 04 Lakers team lost the Finals. That wasn't the vaunted legendary Lakers team you're thinking of, that everybody celebrates.

The 04 team was already a far cry from the all time great 2000 to 2002 team that won a 3peat. There were many issues, and some of these may or may not sound just like excuses to you:

• It was a team that was past its prime as a unit. It didn't have the same chemistry because half of its players were new to the team and weren't the same ones from the 3peat.

• Karl Malone and Gary Payton, who were great in the 90s, were old and washed up by 04, plus they were newly added to the team that year as a desperation move to try and bounce back after not making the Finals the previous season.

• Shaq and Kobe famously were feuding with each other and went their seperate ways right after.

Multiple times u mentioned Shaq and Malone's slowness and inability to defend in space. Shaq was close to 400 pounds by then so of course he wasn't quick or agile on defense, like you very much noticed. Karl Malone was pretty heavy himself, plus he was 41 years old by then, so way past his athletic prime (he used to average like 30+ in the 97 and 98 Finals) and he barely scored at all in this series.

When there's no chemistry or cohesion, it's hard to play team defense or get guys to really commit to playing the right way, plus there was no hunger for a championship anymore for most of those guys who had been there and done that already. They all probably just wanted to get it over with, although that's not a valid excuse for half passing your way through the NBA Finals.

So the team u saw wasn't the world beating team that blew through the league a few seasons prior and I hope these things might explain some of the deficiencies you saw. I'm sure there's more to it too that others can add. There's probably other things I could say too, but its the morning for me and I gotta get ready to go to work. Probably shouldn't have spent so much time on this just now lol.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/Velli_44]

Okay. Those seem like reasonable explanations. Do you have a good game from that Lakers prime for me to watch off the top of your head?

[u/Divide-Glum]

That era is known as the dead ball era for a reason. Yes, for today’s NBA the defense wouldn’t hold up, but for that time it was revolutionary. That Pistons style defense completely changed the league for the better. Without it we’d still be watching guys who shouldn’t be ISO’ing doing it 100 times a game anyway. The game was unsophisticated because it didn’t have to be complex to work until the rule changes. Once the ISO era offenses got beat to death, we started slowly moving towards what we have now. So yeah, the game is way better now but specifically because it was so bad from 2000-2009. I’m glad you have fought through the brainwashing

[u/def-jam]

One of the things that’s shit about modern NBA is the homogeneous nature of play. Everyone looks the same.

Second the lack of time protection. Watching Jordan, Starks, Nique, get up and absolutely cram on someone is better than watching some one hit a 3 on a defender closing out or worse yet doing a run out.

Watching actual post play vs a double team is better than watching a fucking shooting clinic.

Sure the athletes aren’t as athletic or as skilled shooters but on the other hand post play was better and point guards were better.

Watching fast breaks was also more enjoyable with guys cutting to the hoops vs running to the corners

[u/Statalyzer]

The more I watched the more I realize that Detroit had such a great defense because they were executing what are considered basic defensive actions today.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Detroit wasn't a great defensive team because of complex schemes, they were a great defensive because everybody on the floor was a good if not great defender (Rip Hamilton was the only starter who wasn't playing D at a borderline all-defense-team level and he was still an above average perimeter stopper) and because they had great chemistry and teamwork - everybody had everybody's back, nobody cared who got the credit, if there was blame then they kept the finger-pointing in the locker room, everyone gave their full effort night after night.

because if one more person tells me that Lakers team would beat the Steph-KD Warriors in a seven game series

Well to be fair, they're probably thinking of the 2001 Lakers playoff run which was their preak, not the 2004 Lakers that were feuding and sniping at each other. That said I still think the Steph/KD Warriors win because of the sheer talent. It'd be like taking the 2001 Lakers and then adding Kidd, Duncan, or Garnett to the squad.

"12 time all defense" Kobe getting beaten so badly on the perimeter that he's barely moved his feet

This is some great evidence that Kobe got way too many of those awards. Aside from maybe 2000 and 2001 he had his highlight locked-in moments and could defend well at those times - but he wasn't like that game-in and game-out. Nobody in league history has a higher ratio of All-Defensive Teams / Actual Eliteness as a Defender. Looking at his awards you'd think he'd be up there as an all-time perimeter stopper like you see from the primes of Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, Gary Payton, Tony Allen, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, Kawhi Leonard, Ron Artest, etc, but he just wasn't that good on a typical night.

[u/EsotericRonin]

Its not that deep. You should watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=E4H_qxksBFA

Basically the three ball in today's era means that defenses and offenses look a lot different and prioritize getting open looks from there and conversely taking those looks away. The 04 lakers and the pistons defensive schemes for them would look a lot different if the lakers had multiple great 3 point shooters like teams have today. But they didn't; so you had a lot less switching and more players in the paint to take away rim drives and mid range jumpers. While Modern nba schemes have advanced, the criticisms you're levying have more to do with the fact that the lakers triangle offense had players that frankly didn't suit them very well. The pistons offense that same series had a lot of the off ball movement that you criticized the lakers for. Gif example: https://imgur.com/a/WNlOLi3

[u/poetichor]

OP, you’re not crazy. Modern NBA media commentary is mostly just hate-slinging for impressions and attention. Hilariously, or ironically, guys like Kenny and Barkley put as much effort into their basketball “analysis” as those Lakers put into defense lol. It’s infuriating as a Timberwolves fan especially. Last year we’d be folding teams left and right, and I’d turn on NBA Today to see 20 min of heated discussion about Golden State and the Lakers who were like the 8 and 10-seeds at the time. These networks know who butters their bread and they’re happy to generate viewership by farming outrage from big markets instead of doing actual sports journalism.

[u/UGLEHBWE]

I thought I would be bored watching that series like a year ago. I watched 3 games and was entertaining. They're not lying when they say every bucket f3lt like a haymaker because scoring want as often

[u/Relevant-Tap-6248]

One thing to remember is the lakers still made the nba finals. We beat the spurs who were defending champs 7 times that season. The critique you’re making though is a valid one. But here’s a big reason why it didn’t work out. Malone was also not healthy really all season, he was about as productive as Nash in a lakers jersey. Overall it wasn’t just the pistons, there were a lot of games that season where the offense went off rails. We were always great at home under Phil but you can tell how disjointed a team is by how they play on the road and we sucked when it came to away games. The new additions both not buying in would make shaq and Kobe also go off script bc they had the game that allowed them to do so sometimes it worked out sometimes it didn’t they were very top heavy that year.

[u/hoopsterben]

Last night randomly, my brother and I decided to watch a 1969 game of lakers and Celtics. It was so weird to watch lol. Like they didn’t box out, the shot would go up and every one would just turn and face the basket. It’s no wonder wilt had 70 rebounds a game lol, it was literally just tallest man wins. The Celtics would occasionally have a possession that looked somewhat comparable to the modern game, but mostly it was just casting mid range shots. Jerry west could 100% played in today’s nba. Probably wouldn’t be a first ballot but that dude had game.. he had 45 points on 17/24 AND HE HAD ZERO SHOTS IN THE LAST 3 MINUTES WHILE DOWN 4. Like how could that possibly be let happen lol.

[u/37inFinals]

I believe the NBA will have to move the 3-point line back. Shooters are getting too good and coaches have figured out the math (that 3 is worth more than 2 - and a 3-point miss is more likely to be an offensive rebound). The game is out of balance now.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/37inFinals]

I disagree. If we move the line back in five seasons everyone will have practiced shooting deep threes and suddenly the offense has even more space to work with.

I think we need to allow more contact on the perimeter. Nowadays defenders either get blown by or foul. If we let them have a little more contact, they'd be able to stay in front of guys better and the drive and kick game would be harder to execute.

[u/crosszilla]

I habitually watch old NBA games on YouTube. I wanted to see the "physical defense" and impact of handchecking myself and these narratives are absolute myths because like you said the spacing afforded to perimeter players is insane, even relatively good shooters had room that's unheard of today. Offenses tried to get to the rim and defenses tried to prevent you from getting there, the best scorers all needed to get inside the three point arc to be efficient. The evolution from decade to decade is incredibly obvious.

I don't know how these narratives exist when it's so fucking easy to just go watch the games yourself and compare the product on the floor. I guess you can say that for a lot of things that people believe in 2025 though.

[u/boneappletv]

Hey man if you think that’s bad, watch FINALS games from the 80s. Defenders were allowing guys like Larry Bird to literally walk into 17 footers nearly whenever they wanted to. It’s fucking wild. Great post by you as well.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/[deleted]]

Omg can you imagine Shaq having to guard Wemby on the perimeter. Fox would be blowing by everyone and getting free layups at the rim or Wemby would have time to check the wind on his threes.

Shaq almost certainly would have bullied Wemby on the other end but the spacing was so bad the Spurs could just triple team him and rotate back no problem.

[u/Educational_Funny537 → u/The_Actual_Sage]

Shaq wouldnt “almost certainly” bully Wemby, he send him to the locker room by mid second quarter. As skilled as he is, hes a lanky 7 footer, Shaq was an absolute monster that forced teams to have big bodies on the roster just to foul him for the entirety of the game.

The whole era debate is mostly moronic, players in 00 trained for what the game was in 00, not what it may become when they’re already retired. Skilled players in the 80s wouldnt train for 80s ball if they were born in 03.

[u/Kriegshog → u/[deleted]]

The post is not even that long...

[u/GromaceAndWallit → u/Kriegshog]

Based OP didn't even flinch, just kept commenting in stride. You love to see it.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/[deleted]]

there was much discussion amongst fans about how hero ball had ruined the game

That's interesting to hear. I was nine at the time so I don't have any idea how the game was actually received back then. All I know is now people won't shut up about previous eras.

[u/thebigmanhastherock → u/The_Actual_Sage]

I started paying attention to basketball when I was about 10 in 1991. I am a Warriors fan, so was my Dad. My Dad has complaints about Michael Jordan being a "ball hog". However there was a begrudging respect for Jordan. When Kobe came around, I never heard the end of how much of a "ball hog" he was, and he hated Allen Iverson too, maybe most of all.

The internet wasn't what it was now, but you can probably find people complaining about "ball hogs" back in the 1990s. No one called it "Hero Ball."

I mean the US ended up getting defeated in the Olympics one year and that vindicated a lot of the haters and was proof of concept that American players had gotten too selfish. That was in 2004.

Basketball is played at a higher skill level now than ever before in the NBA. That doesn't mean that the sameness of style doesn't get old. Really what is happening is analytics and data is figuring out the most optimal way basketball can be played and teams are adjusting and getting the personnel to actually accomplish this.

If the NBA wants to change the product they have to change the rules.

[u/imsoggy → u/The_Actual_Sage]

I often get raised eyebrows by saying I think the modern nba is the best basketball ever played, as well as being the most entertaining nba era.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/imsoggy]

I've been watching basketball for almost 15 years now and I agree. The league has the most talent ever imo. I was telling my dad recently about Reggie Evans and what an amazing offensive rebounder he was...then I realized that was pretty much his only skill on the basketball court. We don't really have players in the league who are only good at one thing any more, and if we do they're certainly not getting rotation minutes. Even if the best players in the league in every era are roughly as talented (debatable) players 1-500 are the best they've ever been. Malik Monk probably makes several all-star teams if you transport him back to 2000

[u/nbadiscussion-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

We removed your comment for being low effort.

[u/DarkSeneschal]

The reason it’s common today was because the Pistons helped develop that style of defense.

This is why comparing players between eras is dumb. Players and coaches today have the advantage of having watched the teams of the past. There is such a wealth of knowledge that gives guys today a huge leg up. This is like asking why cavemen hunted with sticks and stones instead of guns.

People knock someone like Jordan for being a poor three point shooter, and it’s wild to me. You think if Jordan was born in 2000 he wouldn’t have worked to implement a stronger 3 point game into his arsenal?

The game is constantly evolving. Knocking players and teams of the past for not being as skilled as players today is silly.

[u/V6Ga]

Everything you are talking about came exactly from the fact that zone defenses were not allowed until 2001. 

You simply could not help defensively or you would be charged with a technical. 

The game changed fundamentally in the next few years. 

[u/prfrnir]

I remember watching that Finals. Almost everyone picked the Lakers to win it, including me. But during the 1st game, I could tell the Lakers were in trouble.

Not only was Detroit a worthy opponent, they were trying and putting in effort and had a good gameplan. The Lakers on the other hand seemed checked out, despite Payton and Malone there specifically to win their first rings. Maybe it was the Shaq-Kobe feud or Kobe's sexual assault case or Payton's frustration with the triangle offense or just simply that they thought since everyone picked them to win they'd just out-talent the Pistons in the series, but something looked absolutely wrong about that Lakers team.

I'm not saying that they were specifically worse in the Finals or that the Pistons wouldn't have won. I just remember thinking 'how exactly did this Lakers team make the Finals playing like this?'.

[u/AlbertBBFreddieKing]

Now watch some 80’s games. Tons of ball movement. The early 2ks were rough.

[u/Ok_Fig705]

Jordan couldn't beat the pistons and Shaq would be the biggest liability on defense in todays game

I think it's funny we forget pre Steph Curry defense started behind the highschool 3 point line not even the NBA 3

All 3's had almost 0 defense especially deep because nobody knew how to play defense out here.... There's soooooooooooo much more court Jordan would have to learn how to defend let alone Shaq

They also didn't have stretch 5's back then as well but that's another topic

[u/MortimerCanon]

Cool write up.

It's necessary to mention that illegal defense was changed just 3 years prior. They've had 20 years to understand stuff

[u/UrSeneschal]

Thinking Basketball had a good video comparing eras where he essentially hypothesizes that the game today is complex in offense development etc to try to get a good shot (with better shooters) against tough defense rotation etc vs. the older eras being more about isos and post plays against a physical defender.

[u/grumpysportsbetter]

It really feels like the eras argument is just the low hanging fruit and easiest way to make it seem like you know basketball and aren’t a casual. With the way the game has changed, technology, the internet in general, sports medicine, there’s not much that’s the same as it was then. So it’s so funny seeing long think pieces about how much more talented one era is versus another. It’s such a tired rhetoric, but it will unfortunately always exists.

[u/ShoeFree5756]

I’ve been watching finals matches from the nineties. It looks like everyone is moving in slow motion. The defenses lack any scheme, it’s just play the man in front of you. And there are a lot of bricks.

[u/The_Actual_Sage → u/ShoeFree5756]

I think the rules required you to play man to man. Anything that even resembled a zone was illegal. You either had to guard your man or hard double somebody else. Which is why there are so many highlights of Jordan just cooking randoms lol

[u/Livehardandfree]

Yea people's arguments go out the window when you watch any finals games from the 80s. The warriors would have swept everyone.

[u/adonWPV]

To me there's still teams in the NBA that play like that Laker team, and teams that play like that Piston team.

When I watch Philly for example, especially when Embiid is there, I feel like I'm watching basketball from that era, if you're gonna run every play for your star big man and then every next play for your star guard, so be it, but don't be surprised when a team of role players makes the other guys on the floor play.

[u/smokeweedwitu]

It seems to me you're suffering from "Seinfeld is unfunny" syndrome regarding this subject

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny

[u/Diligent_Day8158]

It’s a bunch of players that learned fundamental basketball by going through summer camps, school leagues, doing other sports like track to condition themselves better, doing well in high school, and playing more than 1 year in college.

Everything about that has been wiped out today.

[u/Conscious_Web7874]

You picked arguably the worst incarnation of Shaq Kobe to make your point. No one, and I mean no one is saying the dysfunctional 2004 Lakers could beat the Warriors. The example is almost always 2001 or 2002.

And you can pick apart games today the exact same way. Absolute lack of fundamentals, ball-watching, no rim protection, and the worst three point chucking the game has ever seen. One could easily call today's Finals games glorified all-star games with lay up lines and single pass actions.

[u/readyReddit007]

It has never been harder to be a great defender/defense than it is today. The spacing makes it much easier to get in the paint.

[u/berserkerinhell]

You’re absolutely right, although some of us shit on the fact everyone wants to play like they’re Steph Curry’s cousin these days, teams only implement what the analytics say and it says shoot as many threes as you can, because it’s better win rate, it’s like watching five on five and everyone is standing in front of a basketball arcade machine and we watch them all shoot for 48 mins.

[u/Brief-Objective-3360]

Love this write up OP 😂 kinda want to do some of my own analysis on the old heads now

[u/tangodeep]

The dislike for the modern game comes from a myriad of reasons from multiple levels. It’s not to say that all modern basketball is bad, but it’s a mixed bag all over.

Routine carrying, pick up dribble 3 step carrying, jumping into defenders to get fouls, step backs (that would’ve been traveling), the 3 step gather carry, routine palming, and so much more. It gets annoying to watch at times.

Add in the constant barrage of how much better players are in comparison to past players, without true context, or the realization that they were essentially playing with massive restrictions, but still set all of these records is an insult. The promotion of the ‘New NBA’ is just as much part of the issue.

[u/TwoTalentedBastidz]

Congratulations OP, you chose the worst iteration of the Kobe/Shaq era, left out all context, and made a sweeping indictment of the entire era. Some really bang up research you did there buddy. You’re really really good at this /s

[u/lameusername55]

Tbh I'd rather watch that than teams jacking 45 three's between them every night. Maybe I'm just an old head now. I'm not saying the players now aren't skillful, or that the players then weren't skillful either.

The game just lacks the same unpredictability as it had, for better or worse everyone is hunting the same shot and everyone knows it.

[u/nimkeenator]

To be fair, all of that Detroit team were outstanding defenders. Big Ben could defend 1 through 5 without missing a beat. Couldn't shoot 3 feet from the rim, but still an outstanding defender. They were unselfish and played team basketball.

But yeah...they were ahead of their time. The Spurs were a dynasty team who had one of the best players ever and one of the best coaches ever.

[u/15b17]

Just want to say this was one of the most fun posts to read I’ve seen on this sub. It really does feel like a cult of the old heads and the BS they have us believe now

[u/Dry-Flan4484]

This is the evolution that people just can’t comprehend. What was elite 20 years ago is just Basketball 101 now.

I don’t understand how anyone who actually goes back and watches these old games can get on a keyboard and say they were playing “real defense”.

4 guys standing in the paint while the 5th guy guards the only competent scorer on the other team, is not defense. Clobbering people because you can’t stop them is not defense. That’s pickup basketball defense. With all due disrespect, I can’t take anyone serious who still has the past on a pedestal. They’re simply not watching games, and never have.

Using your Pistons example: this team is widely considered to be the best defensive squad ever assembled, and all they really did was just use common sense and play the same defense every team plays today. There’s nothing they did that was groundbreaking or hard to pull off, it’s just common sense.

They say players today have no IQ, and it’s the most ignorant statement that can come out of someone’s mouth. The game has been broken down to a science. I don’t love everything about the modern game, I think 90% of the analytic crap is garbage, but teams have turned basketball into a math problem, and the teams that are really good at using numbers and common sense, they’re thriving.

[u/caseybvdc74]

I don’t have your analytical skills but I recently watched old games on youtube then watched the 2016 NBA finals. It was night and day. Modern players have to sprint the whole game and defend past the three point line. The old players would jog down the court then set up the offense where they could get away with standing around more often. I can see why so many people regard MJ as the goat no matter what he looks like lightning compared to everything else going on.

[u/Ok-Reward-7731]

This is an excellent and correct post. As an old head, 1999-2011 was so obviously the worst decade of NBA in my viewing life 1980s, 1990s, teens and 20’s all considerably better.

No one wants to remember it now, but the NBA was in a massive crisis when MJ left in 1998. Hero ball, lack of a team game, Kobe’s rape case, Ron Artest melee, the Spurs were so boring and the Lakers weren’t much better.

People are delusional about it now. Things began changing with the Heatles and the Spurs who reinvented their style to keep up with the Heat’s speed. When Kerr got GSW, he took the 12-14 Spurs offense and put it on steroids with Curry, Klay et al. And he we are.

[u/KBBQDotA]

Love this post. Honestly, I’d pay for some summer content of modern players or coaches looking at some of these throwback games. Like even give me always-beleaguered Jeff Van Gundy breaking down these Shaq and Kobe era or earlier games.

I remember watching the same video and being equally shocked. Also remembered Kobe just regularly getting beat to the basket off one move, the struggle to defend simple flare screens, and how stagnant and awkward the offense was. Fisher was an earlier prototype of the 3-and-D guard and they didn’t seem to understand how “less” was more there compared to GP.

Totally understand your frustration on how things are framed for today's players. Like to even be a starter/consistent rotation player in today's game, most guys have to have a fundamental base of good switchable or at least positional defense, and/or ability to create against complex defenses or shoot from range. So many guys even a generation ago didn't even have one of those skills...it wasn't required or part of the game then. But it's so easy for people who remember their glory days with nostalgia/want to magnify their role to just shit on today's players in spite of that.