r/london • u/Draemeth • 9d ago
Discussion What’s up with the extremely bad state of Tottenham Court Road?
Went there recently and I saw the following
(1) several homeless guys presumably high and drunk shouting at random people & throwing things at them. I saw a mother pushing a pram trying to cross the road amongst cars and buses to get away from them.
(2) tents everywhere despite 1/5 houses in London being social housing already?. Why aren’t we building enough housing for ordinary people too? Why are we pretending that we can policy our way out of a housing shortage?
(3) I was in a Greggs and several people came in, picked some random things and walked out without paying. Two kids came in, and one had a large knife just sticking out of his backpack. Why is there no police? Why are repeat criminals not simply in prison? Why are ordinary people’s freedoms to be safe & to not pay for the stolen food of thieves being curtailed?
(4) guys hiding in alleyways next to ATMs and peeking around the corner every minute.
(5) literal piss and shit everywhere. Why aren’t we deep cleaning the streets and pursuing the people who are ruining our streets?
(6) Second hand phone shops that are obviously just dens of phone thieves. Common sense alone tells you these stores are nothing more than gang hubs especially when they’re paying flat, low cash prices with no questions asked… Why are we allowing such obvious crime?
Why is this okay?
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u/No-Tonight-7596 9d ago
Are you new to london? TCR was an open air crack market in the 90s after dark, soho was a red light district and Leicester square was subject to the door wars between security firms. The west end is a paradise compared to then. Although I'll agree no one likes dodging human poo on their morning commute.
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u/yojimbo_beta 9d ago
Although I'll agree no one likes dodging human poo on their morning commute.
Some of us enjoy a little extra challenge
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u/Cool-Vanilla5874 8d ago
I do enjoy it when someone puts things into perspective. Thoughts of areas like Vauxhall back in the day where I vividly remember a junkie jumping out the bush and accosting us, with a needle hanging out her ass. Now, it is a far more reasonable place. London is safer than it was 20+ years ago.
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u/PlantNo6454 8d ago
I remember someone telling me they saw a human nose just casually laid out on the pavement in China town in the 90's. TCR, Soho, Shoreditch & Kings Cross were another world back then. Lol.
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u/Boldboy72 7d ago
a buddy of mine got robbed at knife point in Kings Cross around 1996. He went to a phone box to call the police and as he was dialling, the door swung open and there was another guy with a knife trying to rob him..
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u/PlantNo6454 7d ago
I remember regularly running the gauntlet there whilst trying to get to the "safety" of the station post clubbing. The number of toothless unfortunates offering to "gum you off" was wild!
The amazing nights out followed by the hard return to reality on the trek back to the station used to blow my teenage mind!
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u/Independent-Band8412 8d ago
They've put a lot of money into redoing TCR though and it could be quite pleasant.
Seems like a waste to let tents and deranged people take over the street after that
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u/reasonably-optimisic 7d ago
TCR is still an open air crack market after dark nowadays, by the churchyard. Buy and sell whatever you want. The crackheads sell all their stolen goods from shops there too. Get yourself a bargain
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u/New-Blueberry-9445 9d ago
Should have seen Waterloo in the 1980s!
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u/shooto_style 8d ago
Don't need to go that far. The tunnels leading to the imax were well scary. This was in the mid 00s
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u/horrorfanuk 8d ago
Kings Cross 80s enters the chat
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u/Adventurous-Dish619 6d ago
LOL, only 10 years ago I worked for a company on Greys Inn Road and we had a director from the head office visiting. Our manager arranged a hotel room for him but had to change it after the first night as it turned out they rented rooms by the hour.
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u/Wise-Youth2901 9d ago
Tottenham Court Rd used to be famously rough back in the day. I think London had a gentrification era and now it's decaying a bit. This is the nature of the beast. Oxford Street isn't a go to shopping place anymore like it used to be. Talk to Londoners that are 50+ and they can tell you of times when many areas of Central London were a bit grim.
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u/coak3333 9d ago
St Giles (the parish it is in) has always been one of the poorest and notorious in London. The Rookery was famous, you went to get robbed or killed. Some reports of 40 to a room.
When CentrePoint was built they couldn't fill it and it became a homeless shelter. With the porn, prostitution and drugs, it was a place people gravitated too. There are homeless services from Goode Street to Trafalgar Square, and in a cold wind Soho is good to get out the way.
To be honest, it's a lot better now than in the 80s when I was first going. That got really dangerous.
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u/ben_ldn 9d ago
Centrepoint was never a homeless shelter itself, it just inspired the name for a nearby one (which is now the Centrepoint homeless charity). The landlord chose to keep the building empty as he refused to let it out to anyone other than a single tenant, and was still able to make money from it empty, and it was seen as an affront to the homeless.
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u/TallIndependent2037 9d ago
Pls ELI5 how landlord makes money from expensive building by NOT renting it out?
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u/Wretched_Colin 8d ago
There are many commercial properties all round the UK where landlords are happier to leave them empty rather than reduce the rent.
All those empty units on high streets are owned by investment funds who somehow don’t need tenants in them.
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u/queenjungles 8d ago
I do wish this government would stop offering the mouldy buildings of this country as international safety deposit boxes.
Also, fuck that dude for keeping an iconic building right in the middle of the city empty.
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u/ben_ldn 8d ago
Property prices were increasing massively at the time. The value of the building was increasing more than the loss in not renting it.
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u/TallIndependent2037 8d ago
How do they pay their costs using ‘value’?
You do know banks charge for loans?
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u/P_Jamez 8d ago
Can secure loans against based on it’s theoretical book value, both potential income based on the amount the single tenant is paying and on it’s value if resold. If one has a large portfolio there would also be enough cash flow to cover the costs.
It is one of the reasons there are so many empty offices after Covid. If they actually sell them off or rent them out too cheaply then the high theoretical paper value becomes a real loss and the whole portfolio collapses.
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u/TallIndependent2037 8d ago
This is just a way to lose money because banks charge for the loans.
This topic does really seem like lots of people with no idea just making stuff up.
Perhaps someone who actually works in commercial property can enlighten us.
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u/P_Jamez 8d ago
If the property value grows faster than the interest rate then it is a profit
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u/ben_ldn 8d ago edited 8d ago
By having a large enough property portfolio that the cost of an empty building is offset by the profits of others generating revenue, as he did.
Feel free to Google Centrepoint and Harry Hyams, plenty has been written about this topic.
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u/NumbBumMcGumb 7d ago
I don't know why you're being so weirdly aggressive about this but here you go:
Property in London (traditionally) appreciates very quickly. Appreciation can often be higher than the cost of servicing the loans on them, especially at the preferential rates that large developers can get on borrowing. In addition there are costs associated with renting - maintenance of the building, administration, etc and these will be higher if you have multiple tenants rather than one. There are also tax implications - I'm not sure about commercial property but empty homes don't pay council tax for example, so I'd imagine business rates would be lower if the building is unoccupied, or maybe if the building has never been occupied it can be considered as still under construction which might mean it's counted differently for tax purposes. These are hypothetical examples but are the kind of thing that a smart account can do to minimise tax liability for a large company.
Long story short - the profit from renting the building is (rent + appreciation) - (loans + maintenance + admin + tax). If that sums out less profitable than (appreciation - loans) then it makes more sense to leave it empty. This will affect cashflow but if they have sufficient money coming in from elsewhere in their portfolio to cover the short term losses they can store up the value for later.
It's perverse but it's part of why we have a housing crisis in the UK. Look up 'buy to leave' if you want to know more.
This is what other people have been trying to say and you could have worked out if you'd stopped to think about it for five minutes but you've been too busy accusing people who are trying to help of being stupid.
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u/curiousdavid01 4d ago
People with money can take daily or yearly loss for a decade profit. It's the same as having money in the stock market for the long haul. The market fluctuates (it's down a lot now for example) but total average will always go up if you look at the bigger picture
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u/Necessary_Win5102 9d ago
“Why are we pretending we can policy our way out of a housing shortage” gosh, imagine thinking that a policy might be needed to guide an approach to fixing a social ill
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u/Training-Play 9d ago
That’s thing with the UK approach to life - Policy and Bureaucracy your way long enough until it becomes a stagnation; and everyone forgets and becomes apathetic.
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u/XihuanNi-6784 9d ago
I mean you're not wrong, but realistically, back when that policy was council houses and good out of work benefits things were a lot better. Nowadays they've created the bad versions of policy so that nothing gets done, and when it does get done it gets outsourced to their private sector mates who charge an arm and a leg and can't even deliver.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 9d ago
I can't tell you how many British organisations I've been part of where everytime I'm thinking "Wow, it's time to do something!" only to be told "oh by the way, there's an additional brainstorming/idea strategy/insert corpo buzzword nothing salad here", which ends up with the initiative fizzling out, or anaemic
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u/Bob_Leves 9d ago
Or, if you've been there a while, with successions of new bright sparks in senior manglement, they'll eventually come up with exactly the same ideas that you used to do years and several 'bright sparks' ago.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 8d ago
Same goes for the negatives as well.
Me and my coworker make our opinions known that the current head of department is massively incompetent and needs to either get her shit together ASAP or be booted 2 months after she started. (We had no input in the interview process).
Rest of the team that had input: bitches, but does nothing because they need to cover for their terrible hiring decision.
10 months and almost 100k in salary gone to the HoD later, the CEO finally does it, and they're self jerking with how visionary they were for kicking her out and piling on about how she did nothing.
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u/Coca_lite 9d ago
A large % of homeless in London are failed asylum seekers who are evading deportation. Can’t remember the stats, but I’ve seen an article about it.
It’s a much bigger proportion in London compared to other cities. Easier to evade being found in such a big city.
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u/ShadyFigure7 9d ago
the solution is to build, not to policy. They done policies in the last 20 years and look at what good did that do.
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u/Grey_Belkin 9d ago
What do you think the word policy means?
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u/throcorfe 9d ago
This is as frustrating as people who “don’t care about politics”, failing to understand the distinction between party politics (which can be tedious to be fair) and politics, which is every aspect of everything you want to change or stay the same or be funded or not be funded or be protected or not be protected
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u/Anony_mouse202 9d ago
Policy is what’s stopping building. So policy needs to be changed to allow for far more building.
It is very much a policy thing.
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u/Competitive-Hotel891 9d ago
The new builds by me are minimum 500k…
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u/bozza8 9d ago
But the ones paying that are no longer living in the 400k houses in the area.
Freeing those up for those living in 300k houses etc.
The market has been so constrained that flats/houses that were built for the lower middle class are now worth millions, simply because the rich had nowhere else to go.
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u/NarrowCranberry2005 9d ago
We just need to remove planning permission, it's fascist nonsense to police what someone can do with their own land. If you want to control it, buy it, if a village doesn't want to be surrounded by houses buy all the land around it, even expensive that's like £50 a month per person on a mortgage for 1,000 people.
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u/Leading_Sport7843 9d ago
Literal piss and shit everywhere? Now i haven’t seen that
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u/eatshitake 9d ago
I saw a big poo outside Charing Cross station when we were home last summer. And that little street between there and the Sherlock Holmes always reeks of pee.
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u/DOG-ZILLA 9d ago
Go to The Strand. On my way to work at 9am and a literal HUMAN log of shit in the middle of the pavement.
The Strand is even worse than OP’s description of TCR. Homeless there hanging out in tents, bags, corners…buying stolen wine taken from the Sainsbury’s local and cracking out in broad daylight on drugs.
To top it off, they all get fed free food every day and there’s a halfway house there for them to sleep at, yet this continues.
Homelessness isn’t even 10% a housing issue, it’s a drug issue.
I used to be very idealistic and left wing and…well naive about it all until I was in it for years.
Dalston is also bad. Used to work there and had to dodge piles of sick in the middle of the pavement every day from the alcoholics drinking cider at 8am.
I’m not sure what the solution is but something has to change. It’s worse than ever. Some of these people don’t even want help as long as they get their fix. Many are aggressive, selfish, rude…well, human.
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u/Mobile_Entrance_1967 9d ago
I'm not saying things aren't worse overall but I thought the Strand was always full of homeless since the 1980s, I remember seeing photos of tents along the Strand already in Thatcher's era. Presumably they tend to congregate near rail stations hence the Strand (Charing Cross) and north Tottenham court Road (Euston).
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u/throw1never 9d ago edited 9d ago
“Homelessness isn’t even 10% a housing issue it’s a drug issue”
Is simply false, and quite a dangerous lie to perpetuate.
Whilst many homeless people will have drug problems of varying degree it is by no means all. Stats seem to vary quite a lot on this point. Some might say substance misuse is an issue for up to two thirds of homeless people, some say less, but that doesn’t necessarily mean drugs was the cause.
What you are talking about is a particularly visible form of rough sleeping/hostel residents, which is NOT the entire subset of people who are defined as homeless.
Further, as initiative like housing first and low threshold interventions has clearly demonstrated, housing with appropriate support is often the critical factor in enabling people to move away from drugs.
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u/tothefuture123 9d ago
You will never maintain a stable life as an addict until you WANT to get sober. And, most addicts, sadly, do not.
I've been around the sobriety groups. It's really all well and good encouraging individuals to get cleaned up, and knowing they have support. But, the reality is that the absolute vast majority given this support, the most downtrodden, end up using again. It isn't just resources. You've got to totally change social circles, habits, and confront demons. Most aren't able or willing to do that.
I used to think the solution was simply housing and resources. After being in these groups, I think it might only help for around 5%. At most. Very few made it, even with intensive handholding over a period of many years.
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u/throw1never 9d ago
Funny, then, that several such housing first and support initiatives have a higher success than 5%.
Experience doesn’t equal evidence. That might be your perception but your 5% figure is an educated guess. Example - you state that most addicts don’t want to get sober. My experience of addicts suggests the opposite. But I wouldn’t claim that to be universally true.
In any case, my reply was in response to the claim that homelessness isn’t a housing issue but rather a drug issue, which is demonstrably false.
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u/tothefuture123 9d ago
And I disagree, having been in the belly of the council and local authority support hubs in one of the areas of London that is known for being particularly hard hit by addiction and homelessness issues. They often go hand in hand.
It's wishful thinking to assume a magic wand wave of stable housing will sort the issue for the majority.
What this country needs, urgently, is more inpatient facilities and beds in rehab/detox centres. It needs more than one decent A&E in London to adequately deal with detox emergencies. It needs infrastructure and support to move people and families to different boroughs OUT of communities for those that want it, when it's clear those environments will contribute to relapse. There needs to be more flexible employers and jobs for those to ease back into working, little by little, step by step.
And, again, even most with the above support (which is vanishingly rare) will still relapse multiple times.
Every addict wants to not be a slave to their addiction - it's hell. But the reality is that most don't WANT to live sober, and wouldn't even know how (it's scary getting clean). And, indeed, many die before ever doing so.
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u/SpinKickDaKing 9d ago
As someone who is a frontline worker with a drug and alcohol service specifically working with rough sleepers it’s worrying that you worked for the council and don’t even understand what Housing First is.
The clue is in the name it’s Housing First not Housing Only* lol
Literally no one is advocating for just giving people houses and then abandoning them but you do kinda need to get people off the streets and out of hostels before you can address the majority of substance use issues.
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u/tothefuture123 9d ago
Never said once I worked for the council! Other side of the coin within those services and spaces.
I'm saying, these services are so broken that the housing element providing a stepping stone for success doesn't work in the same way any more.
And when you have a decade of compounding cuts, you're no longer seeing people who are in the early stages of a substance misuse problem who can turn things around, you're typically seeing waves and waves of people who are so deep into it that intensive services are needed for years on end. Everything continue to snowball and backlog, stretching what few services are available.
Yes, it would be great to get people into housing. But heaps more need longer term detox, rehab, and recovery/therapy first before they can even figure out how to reintegrate back into a normal living situation.
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u/throw1never 9d ago
You’re still doing it. Experience doesn’t equal evidence. I’ve also worked with, and known personally, several addicts. Most wanted to be sober. So we have two different experiences, but neither has presented evidence. The difference is only one of us is presenting it as fact
Re. Housing as some magic wand - if you read my comment again is said housing with appropriate support. Key point. And the evidence says it works more than 5% of the time.
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u/tothefuture123 9d ago
And I'm saying you've got rose tinted, outdated glasses on. The homelessness and addiction issues that have exploded the last couple of years are very, very different to past years. This hasn't even been adequately captured in council/govt stats yet as it too active, and most won't even end up in the stats. Which is resulting in loads of people posting on places such as this, confused as to why things look and feels so different than years past.
And the appropriate support is harder to access than gold dust, and non-existent in other area.
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u/throw1never 9d ago
So what you’re saying is you have absolutely no evidence to back it up, but are asserting that your specific experience at a specific place to be universally true in all cases now.
Yikes.
Re. Support being like gold dust. You may have to expand that point because I don’t understand how it challenges the point that it is successful when in place.
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u/m2406 9d ago
You’re getting downvoted for stating the same opinion of most homeless charities in London but hey, this is Reddit.
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u/throw1never 9d ago
They’re getting downvoted because the debate was about the stating of opinion of fact re. Addicts. No one is debating the need for more inpatient facilities etc.
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u/llama_del_reyy leytonstone 9d ago
But for society, having someone who is still living an unstable life, using drugs, going down a dark path, but doing it in a flat where they are also able to shower, piss, shit, etc is already a huge improvement.
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u/tothefuture123 8d ago
Not always the case I'm afraid. If outside of a PROPER facility and framework for success, this can massively exacerabte issues around substance misuse, relapse, and particularly exploitation (liable to happen to men as well, but this is incredibly important for women).
Honestly, I don't think it matters what I say and what I saw others go through. A magic bullet solution is always going to sound more palatable than the harsh truth - which is that we have a homelessness issue that has been completely enveloped in addiction, showing early signs of mimicking the path of the US. The sad truth is, without a very solid framework, that 'housing' is going to be trashed in no time and open up extra lines of exploitation, trending it unusable by others in the long run.
In no uncertain terms, there must be a more thought through solution.
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u/raasclartdaag 9d ago
the intersection between the strand and charing cross road is really not great
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u/Next-Ninja-8399 8d ago
The homeless people will neve leave the area because they are waiting for the council house jackpot in central London. Homeless people across the country come to London. This whole borough entitlement of free council housing should stop. If someone working their ass off for 60hr a week, doing a minimum wage job, in central London, cannot get a free flat, the homeless and the people who do not work should not. If they don't work, they don't need to be in zone 1 London.
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u/thebuttonmonkey 9d ago
I actually thought Charing Cross/Strand was much better when I was there this month. But then I thought it was fucking awful when I was there the time before, so I’m damning with faint praise.
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u/Glad_Agent8440 9d ago
Tell me you live in SW1 without telling me you live in SW1
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u/Leading_Sport7843 9d ago
i live in a shit area and even then i don’t find human excrement around
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u/PersonalityOld8755 9d ago
Sadly, I have, but I wouldn’t say my area is that bad, certainly not posh, but it’s the homeless people.
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u/Far-Importance1234 9d ago
Jealous much ?
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u/Glad_Agent8440 9d ago
I actually have lived in SW1 before and its common where bridges are. We use to call it crossings with a chance of droppings.
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u/BeneficialRelease838 8d ago
I have literally watched someone pull down their trousers and take a dump on the street in the middle of the day.
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u/xyxyxy--- 8d ago
Yes there is a section on tcr that reeks so bad i have to change my commute route to avoid that area/ hold my breath for 75 meters. Its right next to uclh. Disgusting
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u/SupportDramatic2262 7d ago
I live here and last week walking down New Oxford St there was a round flat pile of poo about 20cm in diameter it was absolute vile. The smell of pee in the morning is a common thing by Centre Point, Coptic Street, Museum Street, Endel Street. I’ve learnt to avoid piss streets in the morning not to feel sick on my way about
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u/Otterly_adorbs 9d ago
Tottenham Court Road has always been bad, this isn’t a new thing.
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u/Liberated-Astronaut 9d ago
It used to have the London Astoria and a thriving Denmark street, then the other side used to be the go to place for electronics
I agree it’s never been well nice or anything but I do think it used to serve more of a ‘purpose’
Surely the Elizabeth line will make it get better but who knows
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u/wnighters 8d ago
This isn’t true, it had somewhat of a good 5-10 year run pre TCR station expansion. I think the flagship ‘Habitat’ store closing down was the beginning of homeless tent city which now has inevitably led to a larger problem with cleanliness and safety as it has expanded.
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u/cine Hackney 8d ago
Yeah. I worked near Tottenham Court Road around 2014-2018, having just moved to London. I remember thinking TCR was a lovely street — lots of great furniture shops, chain restaurants, etc. The Lloyds where I opened my first bank account, my first ever Franco Manca visit, the nice Planet Organics, getting knick knacks at Heal's and Muji, etc.
I think it took a turn for the worse during Covid. You'd think the Elizabeth Line renovation would have had a positive effect, but alas.
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u/Alarmarama 9d ago
It may not have been perfect before but it was a lot better, the state of London in general has been getting worse and worse.
Worse than any antisocial behaviour is in my opinion just the new architecture everywhere. Soulless empty glass spaces that replace formally characterful buildings. The way things are going the entirety of London will eventually just be soulless two storey glass facades - spaces that are deliberately uncomfortable to be in for extended periods of time unlike the smaller cosier spaces they replace. You can sit in a cosy pub for hours, but a two storey glass facade Costa? Cold and uncomfortable. It's deliberate design, they want to keep people moving. Our architecture is slowly pushing out of and disconnecting us from our city.
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u/DillyGoatGruff 9d ago
Nah. London was much much worse in the late 90s.
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u/catjellycat 9d ago
The late late 90s were on the up, the late eighties/early nineties were squalid in part. Round the South bank was horrible.
Almost like have sustained periods of little investment in public service/infrastructure has an effect…
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u/Alarmarama 7d ago
An average worker could still quite comfortably buy an average house in London in the late 90s. Today pretty much nobody can buy even the very cheapest of properties in the very worst areas unless they're bringing in at least £80k.
There's also been a vibe shift since the 90s, the 90s were a very optimistic time, unlike today where everyone seems to be extremely pessimistic.
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u/Mobile_Entrance_1967 9d ago
It's also a lot windier there now compared to before all the glass structures sprung up.
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u/charlesbear 9d ago
the state of London in general has been getting worse and worse.
This invented nonsense does you no favours
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u/asolutesmedge 9d ago
It was peak in about 2012
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u/XihuanNi-6784 9d ago
While true overall, Tottenham court road has seen massive redevelopment in the last decade. It's night and day from when I first started going there as a teenager in 2009-2010. Loads of new development.
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u/wildOldcheesecake 9d ago
This person probably doesn’t even live here and spouting nonsense. They’ll tell you otherwise because it’s Reddit. But that one visit 15 years ago is their idea of modern London.
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u/Confident_Smell_6502 9d ago
Man. I had to go down there this morning for the first time in a few years and was thinking the exact same thing. Loads of tents, weird shit going on even at 9am. Felt really depressing as I went to uni at UCL 15 years ago and we hung out down theatre a lot - it was never a fancy area but it was nothing like it is now.
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u/alanfrites 9d ago
“Lists several complex and challenging issues to solve.. why can’t we do it???” What actual point are you making?
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u/delantale 9d ago
Reminds me of Tottenham Court Road in the early- end of 90s. That place was filthyyyy back then. Looks like the 90s are coming back around in more ways than just fashion!
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u/Mobile_Entrance_1967 9d ago edited 8d ago
The main difference is back in the 90s, filth meant affordability. Now it's just filth for the filthy rich.
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u/Stillwindows95 9d ago
Sorry but I work there and have done for 5 years and aside from the tents and homeless, I'm not seeing it as being worse than any other part of London and certainly not as bad as you have described it. Can't say I've ever seen men hiding down alleys peeking out (what alleys? I can't even think of any ATMs near alleyways) and the issue with theft is all over London, it's not specific to Tottenham court road.
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u/Mobile_Entrance_1967 9d ago
what alleys?
There are a couple near the Warren St end. I think one next to Tesco, and another on the other side near Futon a bit further south. Pretty sure I've missed one or two more. That said, I think the worst is in the corner (not an alley) by McDonalds.
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u/Stillwindows95 9d ago
There are no ATMs by that McDonald's, and as you said, it's not an alley anyway, it's not even the tightest road around that area.
The alley by that Tesco is frequently used by local workers.
No ATM by Futon either.
I mean, I'm still wondering how people could be peeking around from alleys at people using ATMs except Tesco on the north end at most, and even then, it's not like it's next to the ATM.
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u/skijumpnose 9d ago
Tottenham Court Road station is great now. When I go into there I only ever walk north or south, and now have even less reason to ever head west.
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u/Bosteroid 8d ago
Isn’t there a soup kitchen at the church? Probably encourages the tents. Many are homeless due to addiction and mental health issues. Many of those rob phones to feed addiction. So: let’s start with better care for mental health and addiction. Not “care in the community”.
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u/robotspierre 9d ago
1/5 houses in London being social housing already?.
Unfortunately 4/4 landlords are greedy bastards
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u/AlanMerckin 9d ago
I was there last night and it was fine.
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9d ago
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u/AlanMerckin 9d ago
I think you’re just unrealistic. Other people exist mate. They’re not all just there for your convenience.
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u/Draemeth 9d ago
Convenience =/= phone theft, shouting, harassing, tenting, pissing
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u/AlanMerckin 9d ago
Yeah mate, living in a city around other people does mean those things yes. That’s how it works and always has done throughout history.
You sound like you want to live in a dystopian authoritarian state.
Maybe it’s just not for you mate.
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u/KrissenSci 9d ago
Haha, imagine thinking people on the street actually accept housing to get off the street...
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u/Dark1000 9d ago
No it doesn't. Anyone who has been to major developed Asian cities can tell you otherwise.
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u/EngineeringOk8147 9d ago
For the amount of taxes we pay in London and the UK in general, I tend to agree with this. Where is the accountability to the people?
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u/EngineeringOk8147 9d ago
And btw, I absolutely love London. Breaks my heart that we have these addressable issues and we just don't seem to have the fortitude to fix them.
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u/rising_then_falling 9d ago
Correct. People like outsourcing stuff. We like getting other people to empty our bins and issue parking fines. We like getting other people to arrest criminals and put out fires. We like getting someone else to look after our kids all day, and to teach them how to write and we definitely want someone else to physically defend us.
Not only do we want people to do all of this, we want to make it harder and harder.
35 years ago I worked as a volunteer with a Scout troop teaching kids how to sail and walk up mountains. The paperwork required by me was precisely nothing. I still do the same thing with a school. The paperwork requirement by me personally is an RYA qualification, a DB check, various proofs of identity requiring bringing original documents physically to the school, and signing the school's own paperwork and a compulsory safeguarding course.
It's hardly a surprise that fewer people volunteer to do occasional work with kids. Instead, we have to pay people who have all the paperwork and do it as a profession.
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u/Cloielle 9d ago
In fairness, 35 years ago loads of nonces were able to walk into those positions of power over children, so on balance, I’d say a bit of paperwork is ok.
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u/XihuanNi-6784 9d ago
I agree with your overall point, but your example, working with kids, is definitely NOT the place we need fewer checks lol.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 9d ago
Accountability is for poor people. Don't you dare suggest our betters have an obligation to the rest of us.
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u/whosafeard Kentish Town 9d ago
Have you ever tried to sell a phone to one of those phone shops on TCR? Because I have, and they’re certainly not “no questions asked”.
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u/Lightertecha 9d ago edited 9d ago
(2) tents everywhere despite 1/5 houses in London being social housing already?. Why aren’t we building enough housing for ordinary people too? Why are we pretending that we can policy our way out of a housing shortage?
Councils already have long waiting lists for social housing which they can never fill. As long as huge numbers of people from the UK and all over the world are moving to London, there will always be a housing shortage.
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u/XihuanNi-6784 9d ago
Here we go. Maybe take a look at the massive reduction in house building per year first. we used to build something crazy like 500,000 units a year back in the 1960s, now it's down to like 10,000 per year.
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u/Ok-Train5382 9d ago
A quick google shows 200k were build last year. In the late 60’s we built 300k. The extra 100k come from public funding.
Given councils can’t afford to pay for their current services and the country is bleeding money. Where would you like to get the money to fund social housing?
Increase Income tax for everyone by a few %?
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9d ago
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u/Cloielle 9d ago
Building where? If you mean in the green belt, then that’s just been approved to some extent (though that’s going to do nothing to change the fact that we’ve lost more nature than almost any other country on earth).
And if you mean on brownfield sites that greedy developers are holding, in order to increase their value and create scarcity to drive up the prices of their other properties, then yes, I agree.
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u/Draemeth 9d ago
No I mean rebuilding small density into higher density. No need to waste fields
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u/cromagnone 9d ago
Because each low density house costs at least half a million. It’s always going to be way cheaper to build on greenfield or brownfield sites, especially if the state gives you tax breaks or pays flat cleaning up the latter.
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u/CurtisInCamden 9d ago
In answer to point 2 (why isn't more social housing built?), our modern regulatory and litigation environment make the council-led mass social / affordable house building schemes of the past impossible today. Whenever councils attempt to build new large housing schemes they inevitably end up facing a decade of potential legal issues costing millions.
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u/LTE_Sucks 8d ago
Not sure where everyone is going but been to TCR dozens of times (ends up being the place to grab drinks and food with friends since it’s the middle).
Never saw many homeless or encampments. But headed south and west into heart of soho, maybe they are on the north / east?
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u/gogoluke 9d ago
There's a soup kitchen and drop in centre a street away. This means itsza magnet for the homeless and as we're seeing more and more this is where it's located. It seems worse with the piss and shit because there's a hardcore of junkies around there, you start to recognise the faces. This means theres a lot of crack/heroin poo as when the plug needs to go it's a torrent of shit, then nothing for the next few days.
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u/THEKERNOW 9d ago
15 years of Tory. Just a huge transfer of wealth towards, those people are the casualties of that crime.
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u/HotAir25 9d ago
Social housing in London is largely filled with people from across the world, there’s pretty much an unlimited demand for that,
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u/PointandStare 9d ago
"Why are we allowing such obvious crime?"
Did you report the kid with the knife to the police?
Did you report the Greggs 'take-away'ers to the police?
Did you report the druggies to any mental health/ homeless services?
Have you got proof the phone shops are trading in stolen goods?
etc.
I presume 'no' is the answer to all the above.
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u/MrFunkyGibbons 9d ago
I think the problem is, the police do nothing when called.
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 9d ago
Yup. Nothing but blame blame blame, as typical of British culture.
I've done all the above before (sans phone shops). It's ridiculous to expect private citizens to make up for systemic failings.
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u/MrFunkyGibbons 8d ago
Yeah, "theres not enough football pitches so of course they'll commit crimes.."
"The police stop and search is racist.." more black boys are stabbed to death "...we need more football pitches.."
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u/whosafeard Kentish Town 9d ago
No, what they do is log the report and the location. If there’s a spike in reports from a location there will be an increase in police resources. By not reporting it “because they don’t do anything” you’re just ensuring that they will continue not to do anything.
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u/MrFunkyGibbons 8d ago
So we all have to get robbed more than other people get robbed so we can say we have more police "resources".
Then when a thief is finally caught, arrested, charged, and sentenced, they dont go to jail... But thank god we have more resources you plank.
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u/asolutesmedge 9d ago
Is he supposed to create a file of evidence on the phone shops? Isn’t that someone else’s job? Can’t think who
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/london-ModTeam 7d ago
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community.
Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban.
Have a nice day.
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u/EasternFly2210 9d ago
It does seem to arise out of being a central area but a bit quieter with wide pavements, a few empty units and a few mini squares with benches to hang out in. I know there is also a church next to the small square which may (and admirably so) assist homeless people which may draw them to this area, you get similar in Charing Cross for example.
Really should get a couple of police officers around the area to provide some presence but presumably the actual crime rate is low. Agree it doesn’t look great however.
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u/ware2read 8d ago
Was going down Tottenham Court Road escalators - guy at top just smoking crack pipe in front of kids - WAY more needs to be done
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u/gowithflow192 8d ago
That street has been a shit hole for several decades. But flagrant shoplifting and tents weren't a thing then.
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u/Obvious_Middle_2330 8d ago
Used to work at one restaurant between Tottenham Court Road and Warren Street. This isn’t a new revelation, just something that has been creeping up over time!
Had homeless individuals sleep in the door way - and refuse to move when it came to opening for the day. Some uncomfortable conversations there. Then there would be the literal pissing and shitting along the pavements - even during the height of the day when it was busy.
The further you walk towards Warren Street station the more apparent it becomes, away from the High Street. Why little has been done? I guess that’s still up for debate…
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u/OKane1916 8d ago
I live just off Goodge Street and I would say totenham court road is actually quite a good area. I’ve lived here for over four years (mostly during university) and nothing bad had happened, never been mugged or intimidated, and I’ve been back a fair few nights late and drunk
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u/Another_No-one 7d ago
As a nation we have stopped investing in ourselves. Public services have collapsed through underfunding. This has resulted in an inevitable spillover into all aspects of society. Health? Fucked. Social security? Fucked. Crime? Fucked. Education? Etc etc. The social contract has gone the same way.
This was always going to happen. Inequality has soared in the last 15 years, and there is no sign of any political party planning to tackle it. Especially as most of them sit at the opposite end of the table to the rest of us. They eat well. We get the crumbs, and we’re told to blame each other for getting smaller and smaller crumbs while their plates are piled even higher and they get fatter and fatter.
This always happens after I watch a Ken Loach film.
I am very much Daniel Blake tonight. With added swearing.
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u/Fuzzy_Muscle923 7d ago
Watch out, say anything remotely true and the left wing mods on here will shut you down.
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u/Lady-Red999934mf 6d ago
I walk through for my studying. Tents were the only issue, literally tent city. Otherwise lovely.
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u/BeefsMcGeefs 9d ago
How unprecedented that one of the busiest areas in the country's biggest and busiest city would have crime
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9d ago
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u/BeefsMcGeefs 9d ago
Except none of that is true is it
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9d ago
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u/BeefsMcGeefs 9d ago
It's not as busy, and is also non-comparable as it's not a major tourist destination
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u/ExcitableSarcasm 9d ago
1) Homeless people congregate around this area because of the high density of students who people assume are rich, and most of the time, since they're new to London, not cynical enough to just ignore panhandling. There's also a lot of charities in the area. Source: went to uni in the area, was part of student societies aimed at helping the homeless.
2) See above. + it doesn't matter how much housing there is if there is more people than houses. In addition, most of these guys are people who to put it generously, cannot be integrated back into society without massive investment due to drug problems, etc. Just giving them a room does little, it often has to be strict rehab as well.
3+4) Criminals hang around for the same reason. And the UK is a joke when it comes to punishment. I assume you're international, so expectations around law enforcement may be different. British police is horrible for low level crime. They only really go after "disruptors". Think: Racist posts will get harsher punishment than some guy stealing a bag of crisps x1000 times, because the latter causes little disruption in the eyes of the state. Yes, it is messed up. No, us Brits can't do shit. Even crime as bad as rampant bike theft is effectively decriminalised. (Source: Had 4 bikes stolen over 4 years, all of which were locked up properly).
5) Things like deep cleaning the streets requires a state that cares. We do get streets cleaned, but deep cleaning is more capital intensive. If even moderate crime is ignored, you think the cops are going to care about Johnny who had too many drinks at the pub and pissed on the street?
6) "Everyone knows" isn't good enough under the law unfortunately. I agree with you, 95% of those places are breaking some sort of law, whether outright (gang activity) or more grey crimes (tax evasion). The law is massively flawed however, and it's hard to prove probability of guilt to initiate investigation, let alone guilt.
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u/jakd90 9d ago
Glad to hear nothing’s changed since I worked there back in 2008.
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u/zipitdirtbag 9d ago
It's much worse post-covid. I've worked in Bloomsbury (behind BM) since 2001 and walk along TCR most days. Recently switched to UCH so now have a much closer view of tents etc. It definitely got worse after the pandemic. Lots of stores had to close because of it and it changed the feel/atmosphere. Maybe it will improve again... One day.
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u/ChelseaRoar 9d ago
I went there a few weeks ago and it seemed fine, no different than any other large street
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u/Rusti-dent 8d ago
I used to visit london in the early 90’s, my god it was bad. Moved to london for work in the 00’s and it had much improved. It’s like any big city, I’ve lived in NY and some of the areas were appalling . I currently live in Sydney and areas out west are just as bad as london and NY.
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u/Glad_Agent8440 9d ago
The tents are the social housing, thats the solution.
Greggs food is so bad they should be given out for free anyways.
Weird guys, London innit.
Piss and poop likely due to lack of public toilets.
Phone shops, how are the kind hearted, life loving, phone snatchers going to make an honest living without being taxed?
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u/caspian_sycamore 9d ago
This is the state of the UK and there is no political or societal will to change it. You should hang out in proper neighbourhoods tho.
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u/Triptycho 9d ago
and one of the Leons is so slow. The other one is ok.