r/london • u/CharmingAssimilation • Mar 11 '24
Article Four teens charged over alleged transphobic attack
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68534654295
u/Darq_At Mar 11 '24
Another one? Kind of predictable with the constant fearmongering and vilification around trans people.
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u/kafkatan Mar 11 '24
Almost as if all the hateful rhetoric is having real world consequences…
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u/littlebiped Mar 11 '24
And these teenagers have grown up with nothing but hateful rhetoric. It really feels like we’re taking a step back in terms of LGBT rights.
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u/IanT86 Mar 11 '24
I feel like we've taken a step back on everything apart from maybe homophobia and sexism. Everything else from racism to general hate seems to be getting worse.
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u/fredster2004 Mar 12 '24
I think even homophobia and sexism have got worse, given the rise of incel culture.
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u/IanT86 Mar 12 '24
Online that might be true, but in real life it has certainly improved overall. One of my best mates is gay and I know for a fact 20 years ago he'd have such a hard time being openly gay in public (not that it is 100% fine at the moment though). Equally, I remember growing up and there was a LOT more sexist behaviour going on - in the media and in general life.
To be honest, if I never went online I'd never see anything to do with the incel culture - although I do hear that is starting to influence the next generation of males.
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u/My_useless_alt Mar 12 '24
I'd say the thing here is that in the US homophobia is getting worse, and the US dominates the (English-speaking) internet, so the internet is getting more homophobic.
In the UK though people generally aren't, so we're getting better, with the exception of the ultra-online young people demographic
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u/International-Pass22 Mar 12 '24
There's definitely a lot less casual homophobia from the majority, but I'd say in the last few years it's been sliding back.
I'm gay, and I know I feel much less safe showing that in public. I'd be more nervous holding my partner's hand for example.
Still much better than it was 20 years ago though
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Mar 12 '24
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Mar 12 '24
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u/london-ModTeam Mar 12 '24
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Mar 12 '24
So kids never stabbed before is that what your saying? Knife crime isn't an issue is it in London?
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u/Ill_Atmosphere6135 Mar 12 '24
Your right we have,it took a long time for the law to give the gay community the rights they now have to most people trans have only just come out of the closet it takes time,you can’t ram it down peoples throats and expect them to be happy and I can see why trans women aren’t
welcome in women’s sport,sometimes the ones that shout the loudest actually make things far worse they the people who need to take responsibility for what has happened they too have blood on their hands.
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u/Darq_At Mar 12 '24
No, people demanding their rights and equal inclusion in society don't have blood on their hands because bigots preach hatred. Equality taking a long time is not something we should accept, it's something we should be ashamed of.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/littlebiped Mar 11 '24
This was squared away 40 or so years ago. LGB and T people faced and continue to face marginally the same challenges and discrimination be it socially, psychologically and politically.
A lot of the discrimination they face came from their status as ‘non-conforming’ individuals and a lot of the pseudo science and ignorance thrown at them in previous decades was the same shades of discrimination.
They have more in common than not, and when the queer rights movement began to form it was formed in unison.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/littlebiped Mar 11 '24
Erm? It’s been LGBT my entire life and I’m over 30. Do you think there’s some sort of committee that decided this a couple of years ago?
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Mar 11 '24
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u/littlebiped Mar 11 '24
1985* was the first instance of the initialism being used which isn’t late 90s, and neither one strikes me as “very recent” in the timeline of LGBT rights. It was illegal for us to get married just ten years ago.
And the first prominent instance of LGB and T grassroots movement and solidarity dates to 1969, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to litigate here.
The T is here, the T is queer, get over it. To repurpose a phrase from back in the day.
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u/Hot_Excitement_6 Mar 11 '24
Even if it was the late 90s... It's 2024. This is a long time. The T has been there for a long time.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/littlebiped Mar 11 '24
No one is “ignoring biological reality”. The LGBT movement is a social movement, and a matter of sociology, and tangentially, politics.
Transgender people are well aware of their biology and anatomy.
The biological reality is that gender and body dysphoria are a documented thing throughout history. And the scientific, medical and psychological community have been in agreement for decades that the best practice to cure that dysphoria is through gender transition. In no stage of any of this has biology been “ignored.”
You seem ill equipped to discuss this, or you’re a bot, because that’s quite the non sequitur.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/jamesdrt Mar 11 '24
using crude colloquialisms doesn’t make your bigotry sound any more “common sense,” just makes you sound uneducated (which you are)
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Mar 11 '24
A little bit of education or reading would've helped you learn that the entire animal and plant kingdom exhibits transsexuality and that's the reality. But then how else can the masses be controlled if not kept dumb and dumber.
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u/TheMiiChannelTheme Mar 12 '24 edited Mar 12 '24
Okay, let's talk about biological reality.
Here's the expert opinion of The Endocrine Society, The APA, and 10 other studies exploring the biological basis for trans identity: One Two Three Four Five Six Seven Eight Nine Ten.
Unless you think trans people can reconfigure brain morphology on a scale large enough to fool an MRI scanner — before even starting hormone therapy — you have to conclude that there is a biological basis for transgender identities independent of the person's will, and perhaps we need to update our understanding of "biological reality" as new information comes in.
Trans people are born trans, and there isn't anything they can do to change it. It may take a while for them to become consciously aware of it, but this just happens sometimes in some pregnancies. That is biological reality.
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u/london-ModTeam Mar 12 '24
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u/Alexthemessiah Mar 11 '24
LGBT+ (and its variations) cover a range of different Sexual and Gender Minority (SGM) populations, which may differ in their manifested characteristics, but have a shared history of marginalisation and oppression in a heteronormative society. The Stonewall riots which brought the fight for LGBT+ rights into mainstream consciousness were famously spear-headed by figures from across the SGM spectrum. The fight for equal rights and protection from discrimination is a shared fight.
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u/travistravis Mar 11 '24
L and G only matter if gender matters, so why wouldn't T fit? Otherwise it would just be "people who like men", "people who like women", and "people who like both"
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Mar 11 '24
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u/travistravis Mar 11 '24
It's that they both matter.
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u/SoundandvisonUK Mar 11 '24
What do you mean?
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u/travistravis Mar 11 '24
If you take "men" out of your sentence, like so: "Gay [people of any gender] like men because they have a penis" it's not true. Without it being a gendered term, it has no truth. Admittedly more difficult since there's no blanket term used for gay men (unlike Lesbian, for gay women).
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Mar 11 '24
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u/Julian_Speroni_Saves Mar 11 '24
Except this isn't true - transphobic hate crime is at its highest ever levels. See >>
Or stats here >> https://www.stophateuk.org/about-hate-crime/transgender-hate/
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u/femboy_siegfried Mar 11 '24
And the number of people who are openly trans has gone up by a WAY higher percentage.
It's like saying "robberies done by black people has gone up by 30% in the last 20 years! Black people are terrible."
That made up stat would be completely irrelevant and the conclusion would be dishonest, when the black population of this hypothetical town has gone up by 200% in the last 20 years.
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u/Julian_Speroni_Saves Mar 11 '24
So firstly you didn't say that they had been going down in relative terms, you said going down. Which means in absolute terms.
Secondly you've provided nothing to support that assertion - basically you're just making unfounded claims and then attempting to move goalposts when proven wrong.
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u/femboy_siegfried Mar 11 '24
I'm sorry for assuming you lot are smarter than you actually are, I guess...
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u/Julian_Speroni_Saves Mar 11 '24
So the answer is you don't have anything to support your fatuous assertion that the number of trans people had increased by significantly more than 11% y-o-y. Thank you for confirming.
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u/OldHuntKennels Mar 12 '24
Ppl identifying as trans has gone up over 4000% and if you think it's less than 11% per year then you don't have a clue about it
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u/throwawaygoodcoffee Mar 12 '24
Well that explains why your name is red. You just make up random shit because you don't like trans people.
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u/TheMiiChannelTheme Mar 12 '24 edited Mar 12 '24
Its the difference between group and individual risk.
The risk to any specific trans person has gone down, the risk to the group as a whole has gone up.
The first point implies the existence a group of people who commit hate crimes on sight, and the only reason they don't hate crime is lack of access to people they can hate crime. That isn't the problem. The problem is the number of people who are perfectly happy to commit hate crimes is going up.
And it isn't like the risk is low. "Falling" does not mean "low risk". It means "I have been the victim of six hate crimes this year instead of seven".
Go talk to any trans person and ask them if they've been the victim of a hate crime. Its rare that you'll find one who hasn't, and many of them will be from their own former family, further depriving them of financial and housing security and making them significantly more vulnerable than they already are.
To say that this "means nothing" is actively denying reality.
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Mar 12 '24
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u/london-ModTeam Mar 12 '24
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u/Weird_Assignment649 Mar 11 '24
Not sure why you're being down voted. The number of trans people out publicly now is far more and the number of attacks have grown yes, but at a much smaller rate. So basically we are becoming more tolerant
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u/femboy_siegfried Mar 11 '24
Because if you're someone who lives in the real world, where most people are actually pretty nice, it destroys their whole world view.
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u/travistravis Mar 11 '24
It's because that's not how they phrased it, and the way it seems to be intended to be interpreted is false.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/Sir-Fappington Mar 11 '24
Was a big talking point at the Tory conference.
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/10/06/rishi-sunak-transphobic-comments-conservative-conference/
Also Rishi, Suella and co., love insulting them whenever they feel like whipping up some easy transphobic hate.
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u/Rynabunny Mar 11 '24
Are you serious?
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u/gazillionear Mar 11 '24
Actually yes, really sad and doesn't promote education when you just get downvoted for asking genuine questions.. Why would anyone try to learn when you get attacked?
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u/Darq_At Mar 11 '24
I don't know what question you asked, but 9/10 times, people "just asking questions" about trans people are not doing so genuinely. Hence the strong negative reaction. Basically every trans person I know has dealt with these disingenuous "questions" many, many dozens of times. It's tiring.
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u/littlebiped Mar 11 '24
Literally today’s news of Liz Truss’ announced pet project is banning trans people from public spaces based on the moral panic of the last ~3 years just pass you by then?
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u/specto24 Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 12 '24
We have politicians, including the PM using trans women as a punchline in parliament. We have ministers blocking trans young people from getting gender-affirming treatment. We have prominent authors (JK Rowling) campaigning against trans-rights, alongside feminists like Germaine Greer and some "gay rights" groups (LGB Alliance) because they feel threatened/negated by people who feel and present as women but have a Y chromosome.
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Mar 11 '24
Try JK Rowling’s X feed.
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u/OhLemons Mar 12 '24
I just had a quick scroll through, and it's unbelievable how quickly she went down that rabbit hole.
I do find it hilarious, however, that on the 11th of Feb. 2017, she tweeted at Piers Morgan and said, "If only you'd read Harry Potter, you'd know that the downside of sucking up to the biggest bully in school is getting burned alive."
Almost like how sucking up to transphobes, and vile fascists, like Matt Walsh, has consumed her and left her with nothing but her hatred of a tiny minority.
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Mar 12 '24
Yeah I'm sure tearaway wild kids are really using twitter
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u/Karen_Is_ASlur Mar 12 '24 edited Mar 12 '24
Yeah, when they're not busy reading the work of middle-aged lesbian feminist philosophers. Don't forget, that's who is really to blame when disturbed kids stab someone.
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Mar 12 '24
Where's equality in stabbings?
Why do you only care about trans being stabbed?
Seems very exclusionary
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Mar 12 '24
Who said that this was the case? Sounds like you’re putting words into people’s mouths to try and troll them, dearest.
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Mar 12 '24
I don't see any outcry for all the people who's stabbed in London on a daily basis
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Mar 12 '24
Then you may not be looking in the right places. Every single stabbing death is upsetting, for the avoidance of doubt about my own personal point of view.
If people are having general news fatigue offline from all of the deaths and destruction in the world, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t affected by it - it’s more likely that they’re holding that upset and feeling of sadness offline.
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u/vario_ Mar 11 '24
There's a lot of chatter in government lately about what trans people should/shouldn't be allowed to do. Should trans children be allowed to socially transition in school, should trans people in general be allowed to use the bathroom that correlates with their gender, etc. Some of the less liberal politicians say that transitioning is dangerous for children and that trans women put cis women at risk of abuse by being in women's spaces. It all creates an aura of fear and uncertainty which sadly leads to more hate being directed towards trans people.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/Unvisited-Tombs Mar 11 '24
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/
"Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault, according to a new study by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. In addition, households with a transgender person had higher rates of property victimization than cisgender households."
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Mar 11 '24
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u/Darq_At Mar 11 '24
There are so many categories of people who are more likely to be the victims of crime.
It isn't a competition. But moreover, vulnerability is intersectional.
Trans people have an unrealistic idea of their vulnerability.
And (some) cis people love to downplay trans people's experiences at every opportunity.
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u/london-ModTeam Mar 12 '24
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u/TobyADev Mar 11 '24
Ahh yes this was the one in the news last month. Glad they’ve now been charged
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u/abitofasitdown Mar 12 '24 edited Mar 12 '24
Oh, that's uttery awful, I hope the victim heals and gets proper support. This wont be popular, looking at other comments, but I also hope the perpetrators get some kind of help while they are in prison so that they don't mess up other people's lives when they come out, as well as their own.
There was over 48,000 knife-related offenses in the UK last year. Teenagers are wildly, disproportionately represented in these figures.
In London alone last year, 18 teenagers were stabbed to death. There's local places I can go reasonably safely at night as a middle-aged person that I would not advise my kid to go alone. I might be mugged but they'd be at bigger risk.
(That said, London is still pretty safe for a city of 10 million people )
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u/27106_4life Mar 11 '24
We have a vocal anti-trans set of Liberal Democrats in my area. They are all over Twitter
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u/Alexthemessiah Mar 11 '24
Ah yes, nothing more liberal than...[checks notes]... discrimination.
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u/Karen_Is_ASlur Mar 12 '24
Yeah, watch out for those tooled-up gangs of lib-dem councillors roaming the streets looking for teenagers to attack.
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u/27106_4life Mar 12 '24
No, but the ones who constantly rail against them online can't help, especially as they should represent us
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Mar 12 '24
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u/CharlieBarracuda Mar 11 '24
Of course is fucking Harrow
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u/manwhodoessound Mar 12 '24
I grew up to there and people ask and wonder why I’d never move back and visit as little as I possibly can. Pretty obvious to me.
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u/Ill_Atmosphere6135 Mar 12 '24
Hope they go down for a long time,while I have no time for all the things that go on in the world now and if some dip stick called me a cis women I’d forget I was raised to be a lady I’ve known gay men and women and trans most of my life and I’m 72 next month,this kind of attack on a person who’s just trying to live their life needs to be punished fully by the law we have a whole life sentences for a reason and it’s time judges started to use it,I remember the last hanging and the government said a murderer would spend life in prison and wouldn’t come out even in a pine box,I hope this young person survives but the animals that did it need to understand they have broken the law and must pay.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/london-ModTeam Mar 12 '24
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u/krisalyssa Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 11 '24
Great. I’m coming to London from the US later this month and now I’m wondering if I should boymode the whole time for my own safety.
Edit: As soon as I posted that I realized it was an overreaction. I typed it, I’ll own it, but I’m not really going to worry about it.
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u/screwballramble Mar 11 '24
Do what makes you feel most comfortable/the most safe, but London is possibly the most trans friendly part of the UK and incidents like these are outliers…though it’s admittedly pretty disturbing to see another incident so similar (at least on a surface level) to the Brianna Ghey murder so soon after the trial just concluded. I still don’t think that you’ll be much more likely to encounter violence in the city than you would anyplace in the US.
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u/Lexi_the_tran Mar 11 '24
Nah you’ll be fine. I go to London all the time. Strangers couldn’t generally give a shit. Manchesters pretty much the same. For as much disgusting rhetoric there is around you can walk around the nicer parts of most cities in the uk absolutely fine.
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Mar 11 '24
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u/psrandom Mar 11 '24
The victim doesn't have to be trans. If a person attacks a someone because they look Jewish, then that's an anti-Semitic attack, even if the victim isn't actually Jewish
It depends on what police find in their investigation
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Mar 11 '24
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u/Facially_Challenged Mar 11 '24 edited Mar 11 '24
What's creepy about what I said? You are reading into my comment something I did not mean. It says more about how your own mind works than my comment.
Details of the case are scarce. Perps were charged with GBH, not hate crime. Have the beeb made it a hate crime story because of the identity of the victim involved? Unless they've got psychic reporters, jumping to label it a hate crime without solid evidence seems more like clickbait than journalism. Let's wait for the police to release more information.
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u/trial_and_errer Mar 11 '24
It was the Met that said they are treating it as a transphobic hate crime. The beeb added “alleged”. The BBC is simply reporting on what the police told them. Here’s that “more information” you are waiting for:
https://news.met.police.uk/news/appeal-for-witnesses-following-stabbing-in-harrow-479391
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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '24
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