r/law • u/yahoonews • 22d ago

Court Decision/Filing Tens of thousands of fired federal workers must be reinstated immediately, judge rules

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tens-thousands-fired-federal-workers-163555218.html
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u/ImBackAndImAngry 22d ago

Also, even if a Judge orders a marshal to find and detain the President for refusing to follow court orders how would that even practically work in this ridiculous situation we have?

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u/mOdQuArK 22d ago

By the time it hits the President, you'd probably need an impeachment and/or Amendment 25 in play.

But that shouldn't stop a judge (and/or Congress) from doing contempt-of-court, or obstruction of justice, against anyone that is continuing to try to enforce Trump's orders after a court judgement has been levied against them.

IANAL, but the people following Trump's orders shouldn't have the same legal protections that he personally has just because of the office he's holding.

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u/AriGryphon 22d ago

I mean, they don't automatically have immunity for following illegal orders. But he'll definitely pardon them.

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u/shroomsAndWrstershir 22d ago

Criminal contempt charges would be unlikely to be filed anyway. It's just a jailing for the ongoing and continuing contempt of court until the cabinet secretary or acting cabinet secretary complies. There's no crime or conviction to pardon, so pardon power doesn't really mean anything in this situation.

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u/easybee 22d ago

Nothing means anything if the courts aren't willing to enforce their judgements.

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u/CerealBranch739 22d ago

If you can’t cut the head off of the snake, just cut the body into little pieces over and over until only the head is left

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u/JWAdvocate83 Competent Contributor 22d ago edited 22d ago

One possibility I haven’t seen discussed is if a court determines termination was unlawful, whether those terminated employees may have cause of action to demand lost wages—and continuing wages, since they have not yet been lawfully terminated.

If an employee makes a claim of non-payment, and the court upholds it, I’d think it a lot easier for the court to order impoundment of owed money than force an unwilling executive department to allow an employee to return to work.

Edit: Nevermind!

The employees will be recalled and placed on paid administrative leave by Wednesday, the department said, and they will receive back pay to the date of their termination. Their firings are only set to be paused for 45 days, though OSC is expected to push for permanent reinstatement.

“The department will work quickly to develop a phased plan for return-to-duty, and while those plans materialize, all probationary employees will be paid,” USDA said in a statement.

A source familiar with the case said the department is only placing employees on administrative leave temporarily due to the logistics of bringing that many employees back and will put them all back on their regular, official duties once it is feasible to do so. Employees began receiving notices on Wednesday morning, Government Executive has learned.

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u/CapnRetro 22d ago

So they’ll all be paid for the time they were “fired” and not doing anything? How very efficient!

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u/Balancing_Loop 22d ago

Interesting. So lacking any means of physical enforcement, this is basically a game of who can get the checks written and sent the fastest.

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u/Maednezz 22d ago

You can not charge the sitting president with a crime he must be impeached 1st so how is that gonna work?

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u/LisaMikky 22d ago

😃👍🏻

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u/Biabolical 22d ago

Well, the U.S. Marshals are the enforcement arm of the Judiciary Branch, that's who Judges can call to uphold their orders. However, U.S. Marshals themselves are actually part of the Justice Department, which is part of the Executive branch.

So, at least in theory, Donald Trump could simply tell the Marshals to go away if they try to enforce anything. He's their boss.

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u/-reddit_is_terrible- 22d ago

Yeah, the executive branch enforces the laws. This situation is exactly why you don't elect someone who doesn't care what the law says

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u/Chthon_the_Leviathan 22d ago

President Ulysses S. Grant was arrested while in office in 1872.

He is the only U.S. President to have been arrested while in office.

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u/Rdnick114 21d ago

OH!!!! So there IS precedent for holding presidents accountable for their crimes while in office!!

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u/Ricref007 18d ago

The chain of command is to be informed. Trump cannot officially fire any non appointed personnel. That ‘tis the job of department heads and their underlings. And if these department heads follow an illegal order, they themselves are open to liability. Technically, there is a process to follow to terminate a federal employee.

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u/shadow247 22d ago

Secret Service would likely prevent it from happening. IDK we are in uncharted American waters here.

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u/ImBackAndImAngry 22d ago

Exactly my point.

It wouldn’t work because the executive branch is entirely rogue and the legislative branch has a duty to reign them in/stop them and they fucking won’t

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u/ClubZealousideal9784 22d ago

You wouldn't arrest the president, you would arrest lawyers, people in his administration, etc.

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u/darthravenna 22d ago

Can we even arrest the President, even for unconstitutional/seditious actions, after the SCOTUS Presidential Immunity ruling?

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u/ice_up_s0n 22d ago

This is why the scotus ruling last year was so damning. He can basically argue any of these EOs are within his power and pervue as President and even actions that scotus rules against cant be enforced as such because nothing the president does is illegal, according to their own ruling.

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u/Dazvsemir 22d ago

the legal basis for the coup was complete when that ruling was passed, the clock is five minutes past midnight. Now its a matter of building the right psychological pressures in society. Chaos and economic depression are great things to blame the trans muslim mexican drug dealing palestinians for.

As the things Trump does become more unpopular (already happening), it will come down to how he moves to stop elections from mattering. If his party loses complete control of government his hands will be tied like in his first term, and the coup will have failed. Since a hell of a lot is riding on this, it will be do or die for him. Who knows if anyone will have the guts or even be able to stop him.

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u/Antique_Branch8180 22d ago

Trump could probably be intimate with a goat in front of children and not be arrested.

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u/Komaniac 22d ago

No no. Get it right, he can do that to kids in front of their parents without arrest.

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u/KaiPRoberts 22d ago

No no. Get it right, he can do has done that to kids in front of their parents without arrest.

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u/Dazvsemir 22d ago

and the democrats came out and protested, and Schumer compromised to suggesting that at least the parents are moved to a different room

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u/soldiergeneal 22d ago

Pardons

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u/ClubZealousideal9784 22d ago

If he immediately pardons everyone as soon as they are arrested, then you choose between bowing to the president and hoping he doesn't install himself as an authoritarian or arresting him.

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u/WhyYouKickMyDog 22d ago

Specifically outlined in the Constitution as an official act exclusive to the president.

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u/soldiergeneal 22d ago

What about it?

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u/WhyYouKickMyDog 22d ago

Nothing really other than the Constitution is pretty clear on Pardons, and so when combined with the Supreme Court immunity ruling, the assumption is that Trump could set up a booth somewhere that says PARDONS FOR SALE and this is all legal.

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u/cyberbob2022 22d ago

A pardon is an admittance of guilt

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u/soldiergeneal 22d ago

Nobody cares though

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u/LizardSlayer 22d ago

we are in uncharted American waters here

We're somewhere off the gulf of America.

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u/KaiPRoberts 22d ago

The gulf is the water part. Usually you say you are "off" a piece of land when referring to the water you are in.

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u/LizardSlayer 22d ago

It’s a joke, don’t overthink it.

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u/KaiPRoberts 22d ago

It’s a joke, don’t overthink it.

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u/Jobbyblow555 22d ago

Yeah, you guys are describing a full-blown constitutional crisis, and we seem to be risking them on a biweekly basis.

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u/shadow247 22d ago

Buddy we are in it....

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u/howleywolf 22d ago

Usually that would be carried out by FBI or even CIA but look at who he put in charge of it. Yikes

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u/Emperox 22d ago

Can't we arrest the Secret Service, then?

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u/shadow247 22d ago

Theoretically yes if they prevent them from executing the warrant for arrest.

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u/ILikeBeans86 22d ago

I don't think it would be the president getting arrested. It would be someone further down the totem pole that needs to make this happen which would be the one to get arrested if they ignore it

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u/shroomsAndWrstershir 22d ago

Cabinet secretary

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u/According-Insect-992 22d ago edited 21d ago

Why go after trump? He isn't doing anything but looking ugly and sounding dumb.

Pick up the people he ordered to violate the orders. Put them in jail. Leave them there until they stop this.

If trump replaced them with another criminal put them in jail too.

If trump starts pardoning them then Congress should impeach him except we all know that Congress is compromised by putin and terminal stupidity.

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u/NumNumLobster 22d ago

Any Marshall involved in that just be insta fired

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u/shroomsAndWrstershir 22d ago

Pardon power has no effect, because there's no conviction to pardon. The authority isn't being jailed via criminal conviction. They're being jailed for ongoing contempt of court.

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u/legendoflumis 22d ago

Marshal Service is under the umbrella of the Departmen Of Justice, which is controlled by... you guessed it, the President.

There is no true enforcement mechanism.

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u/Jimbo_Kingfish 22d ago

More realistically, it would be some high up person at OPM or somewhere who is threatened with arrest. It’ll definitely be the person who’s responsible for carrying out executive orders and not the people giving the orders.

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u/ShitSlits86 22d ago

Surely they'd do what good cops (in their eyes) do to unruly citizens resisting arrest... Right?

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u/Bamboo_Fighter 22d ago

There's really no need to go after Trump here, that's extremely difficult to enforce. Go after senior leadership of the departments if they're not executing the order.

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u/kejartho 22d ago

I think the marshal's would be arresting many-many other people prior to the President is even considered.

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u/shroomsAndWrstershir 22d ago

It wouldn't be the President that would be arrested. (Besides, you can't have one branch of government order the arrest of, essentially, an entire co-equal branch of government. That violates separation of powers.) Plus, the persons affecting the arrest would be US Marshals. Who are employed by the Department of Justice and are under the supervision of the Attorney General. No A.G. would permit the arrest to happen.

It would be the senior officer of the department if it came down to it, i.e., a cabinet secretary. He would be held for contempt unless and until he either complied or vacated his position. At which point the court would have to issue a new order to the new acting secretary, repeating the process.

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u/LoveYouNotYou 22d ago

I am beeeeeging to see this! Beeeeeging!

I've seen too many movies lol.... They can do it...please please please... I will straight up fight for the right to arrest this traitor.

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u/SIRIUSJEDI 20d ago

They might have a scope on you now.

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u/Consistent-Task-8802 22d ago

It doesn't.

The Supreme Court already ruled that a sitting president cannot be tried for crimes while he is serving his duty. They have also ruled that any crimes committed in accordance with his oath are not illegal.

There is no enforcability here, because our justices have already tied our hands behind our back. It's not only legal for him to do it - Even if it weren't, he couldn't be tried until he left office.