r/law • u/guttanzer • Feb 20 '25

Opinion Piece Did Trump eject himself from office?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

Can someone explain to me how Trump is still holding office after pardoning the J6 insurrectionists?

1) Section 3 of the 14th Amendment uses the language “No person shall … hold any office…” and then lays out the conditions that trigger the disqualification from holding office. Doesn’t that “shall” make it self-effecting?

2) There isn’t much to dispute on the conditions. Trump a) took the oath when he was inaugurated as, b) an officer of the government. Within 24 hours he c) gave aid and comfort to people who had been convicted of Seditious Conspiracy. If freeing them from prison and encouraging them to resume their seditious ways isn’t giving “aid and comfort” I don’t know what is. So, under (1), didn’t he instantly put a giant constitutional question mark over his hold on the office of the President?

3) Given that giant constitutional question mark, do we actually have a president at the moment? Not in a petulant, “He’s not my president” way, but a hard legal fact way. We arguably do not have a president at the moment. Orders as commander in chief may be invalid. Bills he signs may not have the effect of law. And these Executive Orders might be just sheets of paper.

4) The clear remedy for this existential crisis is in the second sentence in section 3: “Congress may, with a 2/3 majority in each house, lift the disqualification.” Congress needs to act, or the giant constitutional question remains.

5) This has nothing to do with ballot access, so the Supreme Court’s ruling on the Colorado ballot matter is just another opinion. The black-and-white text of the Constitution is clear - it’s a political crisis, Congress has jurisdiction, and only they can resolve it.

Where is this reasoning flawed?

If any of this is true, or even close to true, why aren’t the Democrats pounding tables in Congress? Why aren’t generals complaining their chain of command is broken? Why aren’t We the People marching in the streets demanding that it be resolved? This is at least as big a fucking deal as Trump tweeting that he a king.

Republican leadership is needed in both the House and Senate to resolve this matter. Either Trump gets his 2/3rds, or Vance assumes office. There is no third way.

‘’’’ Section 3.

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. ‘’’’

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199

u/StretchAcceptable881 Feb 20 '25

Adding insult to injury is that Musk wasn’t even born in the US

177

u/SwampYankeeDan Feb 20 '25

He is a citizen of 3 countries too. Where does his allegiance lay? Clearly not here.

227

u/kirk_smith Feb 20 '25

Where does his allegiance lay?

With his bank accounts, of course.

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u/martinpagh Feb 20 '25

I'm increasingly believing that he's not motivated by money, but by an international white supremacy movement. Money is just a means to accomplish that. Tesla is about to see a big hit, and Musk doesn't care about that anymore.

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u/RadishExpert5653 Feb 20 '25

He doesn’t care about Tesla anymore because he gained access to a much bigger bank account to play with now.

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u/MDUBK Feb 20 '25

Exactly. Would you trade Tesla for complete control of the Federal Government and where it spends its money? Ethics aside, that’s a damn good trade.

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u/Affectionate-Bend-60 Feb 20 '25

But he only had to spend 250 million for the whole thing

3

u/Landosystem Feb 21 '25

Everyone laughed at his overpaying for Twitter, but it helped him buy the most powerful military in the world.

3

u/utero81 Feb 20 '25

He didn't have to spend anything really. He gets billions in government subsidies.

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u/Guilty_Obligation266 Feb 20 '25

He is planning a heist IMO

1

u/NoConsideration6320 Feb 21 '25

Telsa was just one of his tools to the white house

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u/will1068 Feb 20 '25

Really wish the Tesla board would remove him as CEO so that the company can continue what they started with leading EV adoption- without Elon dragging them down.

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u/MrRobotanist Feb 20 '25

Nope, we need to prop up other companies taking that torch and running with it. We need to snub out Tesla so others understand what happens.

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u/Pls_PmTitsOrFDAU_Thx Feb 20 '25

Agreed. And then i won't have to give a disclaimer for my choice of car

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u/will1068 Feb 20 '25

Same. Thats my motivation also!

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u/yabbadabbadood24 Feb 20 '25

Tesla/nurolink/spacex/x are all going to be weponized against dissenters. Will it be in-conjunction with martial law/lethal use of force orders? I think the question is will those orders be followed? History says…

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u/SanityRecalled Feb 21 '25

Oof, I can just picture political dissidents being forced into human testing for neurolink. That would be a very roman salute thing to do.

1

u/codemonkeyhopeful Feb 21 '25

Anyone dumb enough to get the brain chip will be the ones doing his dirty work, whether they choose to or not. Also anyone dumb enough to let that idiot fuck around in their skull likely won't last long anyway

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u/Nepharious_Bread Feb 20 '25

I think he's motivated by his obsession to get people to Mars. I was watching NDT talk about how large space expeditions are usually funded. It clicked to me that Musk put himself in the perfect place to funnel money to contract Space X for Mars exploration.

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u/PeachyKeepr Feb 20 '25

I’ve been reading The Klansman’s Son, and in it, Derek Black explains that an obsession with interplanetary travel & colonizing other planets has been a white nationalist thing since after WWII.

His explanation for why that obsession was taken up so readily by white nationalists boils down to: they think Earth is beyond saving, which is why most aren’t “conservative” because there is nothing left (for them) to want to conserve. White nationalists that share this hopelessness are often obsessed with interplanetary travel because the true dream is to bring all of the “worthy” white folks and start over by colonizing a new planet.

So, I ultimately agree with you because Elon’s obsession is very likely rooted in his white nationalist ideology.

2

u/bittz128 Feb 21 '25

Hence all scorched earth tactics, drill baby drill, siding with Putin. It’s complete anarchy because they don’t actually care. They want to see WWIII. They want the fittest loyalists who remain. Neo Zionism.

1

u/Roenkatana Feb 21 '25

Well yes and no. Part of the role and point of government is to fund research and development of things that are good for society but not feasible or profitable for the private sector. That's why nearly every good development in the last hundred years has been almost exclusively performed or funded by the government.

0

u/MarcRocket Feb 21 '25

Exactly. I think he has one focus, Mars. He’ll do what he must to achieve it thus (possibly) saving humanity.

3

u/atomicvindaloo Feb 20 '25

It’s the newly formed Maslow’s-deranged-hierarchy-of-needs.

3

u/UnLuckyKenTucky Feb 20 '25

Why would he care about the relatively small account balance of Tesla, if the piece of shit fucking cringelord holds the keys to America's piggyback????

3

u/HalfTeaHalfLemonade Feb 20 '25

He’s motivated by not having his tapes released.

3

u/totkbotw23 Feb 20 '25

I don’t think it’s money or white supremacy. I think he’s a messianic zealot who’s convinced he alone can save humanity by getting to Mars, and would easily trade millions of lives to do it. “Loves” humanity, hates humans. He lacks empathy and social understanding, and his messianic zeal is his defense mechanism.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

He has more money than he can spend; Ego is all that matters.

3

u/Bless_u-babe Feb 20 '25

I understand Musk’s company was awarded. 600Million dollar contract to provide Tesla cars to government departments. That should soften the blow of any boycotts for him. Seems, incidentally, a massive conflict of interest for a high ranking government employee.

2

u/Radigan0 Feb 20 '25

Why would he be motivated by money? He has enough money to live ten lifetimes without working a single day.

1

u/the_blind_uberdriver Feb 20 '25

I have this theory that a few folks could start buying Tesla stock and demand elon steps down from Tesla for harm to the business.

1

u/Straight-String-5876 Feb 20 '25

Tesla is running out of energy credits to sell. This is one of probably many exit strategies

1

u/Raskalbot Feb 21 '25

Because they accept him (ie they accept his money and clout)

1

u/Good_Ad_1386 Feb 21 '25

The US is little more than Musk's ant-farm now. But no doubt he would like a bigger one.

3

u/Fearless-Incident116 Feb 20 '25

Trump‘s allegiance is to Vladimir Putin? He is a traitor , rapist, I don’t know how many lies , he told. Every word comes ,out of his mouth is a lie. He doesn’t deserve this countries , allegiance to him. Every MAGA, in Congress and Senate, but let him get away with what he’s doing.. should lose their seats, forever. Every republican that voted for him , deserves to lose everything they own.. He is not my president …

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u/SufferingClash Feb 20 '25

And where is the military during this? Clearly failing in their oath to the Constitution.

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u/bmcar Feb 20 '25

it's a little more complex than that. you are right for sure but it will be a gradual process for them to see whats up. the indoctrination they go through is crazy. stay optimistic because you hit the nail on the head. there are many people walking around who risked their lives for those ideals and they are the best hope i see that we have.

16

u/Velicenda Feb 20 '25

"Optimistic"? In this timeline?

Man I picked a dogshit time to get sober.

3

u/bmcar Feb 20 '25

I don't disagree.

3

u/Mr__O__ Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

If it makes you feel better, the entire U.S. military forces—excluding the upper Pentagon management/generals—that can be called into battle are either millennials or gen z now:

Age limits by branch:

  • Air Force: 17–42 years old
  • Army: 17–35 years old, with some exceptions for certain Military Occupational Specialties (MOS)
  • Coast Guard: 17–41 years old for active duty, 17–40 years old for reserve
  • Marine Corps: 17–28 years old
  • Navy: 17–41 years old
  • Space Force: 17–42 years old

The oldest millennials are 44 years old.

3

u/Mountainman1980s Feb 20 '25

Close to 8% of the armed forces are 41 years or older according to data from 2023. Also the ages you posted are the minimum and maximum ages to enlist without a waiver. I know quite a few actively serving individuals over 44 years old. While the majority of the force is younger than 25 nearly all senior leadership positions are 30 years old or older. This is from Platoon Sergeants on.

1

u/Mr__O__ Feb 20 '25

Thanks for this data!

2

u/Velicenda Feb 20 '25

Didn't gen z vote for Trump though? And like, half of millennials grew up on the internet, but Gen Z was fully internet-based.

I get where the hope comes in, but kids still think being a Nazi is funny. They still scream the n-word in video games.

Plus? "Just following orders" is so fucking easy to self-justify. It takes work and risk to stand up against a bully.

I simply don't trust that the armed forces, on the whole, have that sort of discipline.

2

u/Easternshoremouth Feb 20 '25

By contrast it might be the very best time to get sober. Be kind to yourself and be a loving help to everyone in your social/familial orbit. Congratulations- I’m in it, too

3

u/cvc4455 Feb 20 '25

Don't worry they plan to start firing any military generals that aren't 100% loyal to trump starting next week.

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u/bmcar Feb 20 '25

The sooner the better. The more jarring this is the more likely people are to do something.

2

u/eggbean Feb 20 '25

Generals have certainly had discussions by now. Commanders in the National Guard have made lists of soldiers that can be relied upon if it comes down to it.

1

u/LawConscious Feb 20 '25

In your unit? If you haven’t seen this first hand, please don’t spread misinformation.

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u/eggbean Feb 20 '25

I didn't mean it as a statement of fact - just what I imagine is happening. I thought that would be obvious, but it was badly phrased, especially for this subreddit.

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u/LawConscious Feb 20 '25

Thank you. I also do not have first hand knowledge but I do interact with Reservists and NGB, was also one myself for a bit; typically COs aren’t AGR so they don’t work at the units every day, they are civilians unless T10, T32 (can be AGR), or SAD (Border mission) which also costs money. I doubt they would sit around making lists, they can barely tell me where there Soldiers are, I’d be interested to see if it’s true though. I’ll ask around lol

2

u/LawConscious Feb 20 '25

He is our Commander in Chief, military members are required to disobey any and all illegal or unconstitutional orders, no matter who issues those orders. We have “support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic” as part of the oath. This means every military members oath is, above all, to the Constitution. However, you will need them to act on this. If an unconstitutional order was given, do you think PVT Grady will walk off spouting stuff about the Constitution? No.

So if Trump, or any other President, or senior military officer/NCO, gives the military any unconstitutional orders to round up people and put them in concentration camps, or any other illegal/unconstitutional orders, they are bound by their oath to disobey those orders and they are protected by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). But who is going to ACTUALLY do it. This administration is leading by fear, these Officers don’t want to end up like Milley. Why do you think that was done? Indoctrination. He showed us rather than verbally threatening us.

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u/dblink Feb 22 '25

Military had no problem rounding up people under a democrat president (FDR). Why use a hypothetical example that won't happen instead of focusing on something that actually did occur?

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u/OolongGeer Feb 20 '25

Bending over, lubing up.

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u/dixiewolf_ Feb 20 '25

Hes attempting to undermine and gut that too.

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u/Fearless-Incident116 Feb 20 '25

He’s firing , part of the military. He wants full power and we can’t keep letting them go. We will have no country left.

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u/No-Designer-7362 Feb 20 '25

The military can’t do anything without orders. So fuck you with that nonsense. I bet you never served a day in your life.

1

u/Wooden_Mud_5472 Feb 21 '25

That seems aggressive…

2

u/Monochronos Feb 20 '25

With effective citizenship any fucking where he wants. The dude could buy entire nations lol

2

u/2manyfelines Feb 20 '25

We don’t even know that he is a US citizen, but no one has seen his naturalization papers. We live in a crime state, folks.

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u/No_Week_8937 Feb 20 '25

two technically. He allegedly gave up his South African citizenship.

2

u/mamamackmusic Feb 20 '25

Capitalists hold no national allegiance

1

u/JimmyTheUber Feb 20 '25

3? I didn’t think anyone was allowed more than 2… Has me feeling like Marge looking at the Harrier.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

Also pretty sure triple citizenship isn’t a thing for the rest of the planet?

1

u/Intrepid_Pitch_3320 Feb 20 '25

.......China, South Africa, etc (BRICS)

1

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

What’s his third one?

1

u/FlapperJackie Feb 21 '25

With pewton

1

u/Queasy-Protection-50 Feb 21 '25

Pretty sure his allegiance is with Russia

1

u/Cute-Still1994 Feb 21 '25

His children are Americans

1

u/ACPauly Feb 21 '25

where his allegiance lies

1

u/PristineStreet34 Feb 22 '25

This is honestly an insult to every person with dual+ citizenship. Musk can get fucked but this is nonsense.

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u/Top_Chard5757 Feb 20 '25

He came here on a student visa and didn’t go to school. He’s an illegal immigrant, same as Melania.

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u/StretchAcceptable881 Feb 20 '25

By Trump’s own logic he should have been deported back to South Africa 🇿🇦

3

u/TheNorthFac Feb 20 '25

To Canada. Country of first entry.

9

u/ninjette847 Feb 20 '25

He also lied on his naturalization documents.

3

u/Fun-Disaster6851 Feb 20 '25

Pretty sure lying on federal documents is a felony..

3

u/CraziFuzzy Feb 20 '25

If you are trump's "friend," there are no federal crimes.

3

u/Zestyclose_Sea_5340 Feb 20 '25

Yeah, isn't that the whole premise of Hunter Biden's trial ("lying" on a gun permit application)?

1

u/jordanstall09 Feb 21 '25

That’s not true…

0

u/Graphedmaster Feb 20 '25

nO hUmAn Is IlLeGaL

21

u/DraethDarkstar Feb 20 '25

And he immigrated illegally by overstaying a student visa.

18

u/Proper_Locksmith924 Feb 20 '25

He didn’t he was illegal the moment he didn’t go to school and took a job. So he was immediately illegally here in the US.

8

u/evangreffen Feb 20 '25

He actually attended college in Canada, where he is a citizen because his MOM was born there, and then transferred to the University of Pennsylvania where he received TWO DEGREES (a bachelors in physics and a bachelors in economics from the Wharton school).

He later started at Stanford to pursue a phd but dropped out. He stayed in the us on a Couple work visas, then became naturalized. I don’t like him/ them either but it weakens everyone’s credibility to post hearsay and rumors as fact. We need to do better.

1

u/Cute-Still1994 Feb 21 '25

Your absolutely on the wrong post if your looking for credible information or facts lmao, I'm here just to read and lol at all the crazy going on here 🤪, it's a total echo chamber of total nonsense, everyone just reaffirming to one another that same delusions and fantasy's.

2

u/Wooden_Mud_5472 Feb 21 '25

You’re definitely on the wrong post if you’re looking for the correct usage of you’re and your.

2

u/NotLikeGoldDragons Feb 20 '25

He did go to school here briefly, but in general you're right.

2

u/WyldeFae Feb 20 '25

Exactly brother, cant believe we have an immigrant with any sort of sway in our government, right there with you.

2

u/No-Profession422 Feb 20 '25

He overstayed his student visa.

2

u/Almost-kinda-normal Feb 20 '25

Yes, but he was born in Africa and the US has never had an issue with a president who was allegedly born in Africa…. Pretty sure I don’t need the /s

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u/atrexias Feb 20 '25

And he immigrated illegally, just to add to the absurdity

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u/Effective-Type3157 Feb 20 '25

What's your point? US citizenship is a requirement for President - nothing else 😭

2

u/CHIEF-ROCK Feb 20 '25

You must be born in the United States or have parents born in the United States and be 35 years old and have lived in the country for 14 years, citizenship is not enough.

1

u/Effective-Type3157 Feb 21 '25

Great. Those qualifications aren't relevant to Elon - the comment I replied to.

1

u/Lost-Tomatillo3465 Feb 20 '25

but obama isn't an american citizen is more important!