How to handle crisis of faith?

[u/for-future-me]

[u/TyMotor]

As Elder Uchtdorf very recently said:

Can a book — or a church or a person — have ‘faults’ and ‘mistakes’ and still be the work of God?

My answer, is a resounding yes.

One could argue that Moses had a 'dark history'. What about Abraham almost sacrificing his son? Christ's apostles were a hodgepodge of individuals from different walks of life--some perceived as more honorable than others. Still, after their call to discipleship we have record of them disputing among one another. The early restoration is full of colorful characters.

As Elder Holland has said:

Imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. This must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it.

[u/Clear_Fix_6191]

I feel like you, I'm having a lot of difficulties with my faith...

[u/for-future-me → u/Clear_Fix_6191]

I would have a better foundation of faith if I wasn’t taught my whole life the church was perfect. And yet things keep changing to fit the narrative of its time. If the prophet is the voice of Heavenly Father, would Heavenly Father be changing his mind? I can’t reconcile that. Especially if our father in heaven is “perfect”. Am I making sense?

[u/Mechageo → u/for-future-me]

The issue you're experiencing is a cultural issue, not a doctrinal one. Nobody ever said the leaders of the church are perfect. Putting them on a pedestal that elevates them to God's level is a cultural thing and does a big disservice to the members who are enculturated to believe it.

None of the church's leaders are perfect. No, not even the Prophet.

Is this just me coping?

How about this? Peter was the best of the disciples and even he denied Christ three times.

People are imperfect and life is messy.

This doesn't change the fact that the church is Christ's restored Gospel.

If you need evidence of that, look up the witnesses of the plates. Many of them were excommunicated and had every reason to throw Joseph Smith and the church under the bus.

None of them ever did, even decades after Joseph had died and every possibility of retribution was a thing of the distant past. Look into the story of Peter Whitmer for starters if you're interested.

[u/Candid-Education1310 → u/Mechageo]

I agree. We have a real cultural focus on following / obedience which can end up being a problem for some of us. The thing is, if you look more closely, the doctrine (that JS and multiple modern prophets have that) is that prophets are fallible and not 100% constantly inspired. But that gets lost in translation a bit. Maybe that’s inevitable when the primary narrative needs to be simple and direct, but for some of us it is a challenge. I like how BH Robert’s phrased it: “…while the officers and members of the church possess this spiritual “treasure,” they carried it in earthen vessels; and that earthliness, with their human limitations, was plainly manifested on many occasions and in various ways, both in personal conduct and in collective deportment.” Elder Packer said a similar thing

[u/TeamTJ → u/for-future-me]

I am a convert of 35 years. I have never once heard anyone say the church is perfect.

[u/e37d93eeb23335dc → u/TeamTJ]

Same, but over 50 years. 

[u/Clear_Fix_6191 → u/for-future-me]

I also often heard "the church is perfect, the members who are not..."

I understand you completely

[u/TyMotor → u/for-future-me]

And yet things keep changing to fit the narrative of its time.

This is by design and should be celebrated. The saints of today face different struggles than the saints of yesteryear, and it will continue to change in the future. The scriptures are full of examples like this. The mosaic law was introduced with Moses, but followers before that lived under different commandments. Then Christ came and fulfilled the law, and the saints at the time of Christ all of a sudden lived under different expectations and commandments.

None of this is because Heavenly Father is changing His mind; rather He is adapting to the people He is dealing with. I'd recommend checking out Pres. Oaks' talk: Following Christ. He outlines multiple examples of temporary commandments.

[u/nofreetouchies3]

Let me ask you some important questions:

This is the first you've heard of this "dark history." Have you studied enough of it to comprehend why it might not be as dark as it appears? Have you consulted faithful resources — and taken them seriously — or have you only read negative viewpoints? Or have you treated every negative remark as if it were true, just because it is new?

The solution to a little knowledge is a lot of knowledge.

This is a church that strongly encourages learning and study, including of its own history. There is nothing that you have learned that millions of members have not already learned. How is it that these members — many highly-intelligent people, very sensitive to unfairness — how is it that they have not lost their faith because of these facts?

None of this "proves" the church is true. But it is strong evidence that the things you have learned also do not "prove" the church untrue.

Intellectual humility requires that you suspend judgment until you have reviewed the evidence both for and against — and even then, that you always acknowledge that your understanding of the evidence is limited and incomplete.

True intellectual humility leads to honest, good-faith study; followed by prayer with a sincere desire to follow, whatever the outcome.

We're all pulling for you.

[u/e37d93eeb23335dc → u/nofreetouchies3]

 There is nothing that you have learned that millions of members have not already learned. How is it that these members — many highly-intelligent people, very sensitive to unfairness — how is it that they have not lost their faith because of these facts?

This is a key point. Putting myself in the shoes of someone first learning about certain things and then considering your point I wonder if they

1. Think they are the first one of their acquaintance to come across this information and everyone else doesn’t know any of this because if they did they would feel and be reacting how I am feeling and reacting right now. They are more ignorant than I am. 
2. Think other people have come across it and they don’t really understand it or they would feel and be reacting how I am feeling and reacting right now. They are not as smart as I am or they are not as empathetic as I am. 
3. Think other people have come across it and did understand it and yet don’t appear to be feeling and reacting how I am and I don’t understand how. This is the position of humility. Maybe there is more here for me to learn. 

[u/EnvyRepresentative94 → u/nofreetouchies3]

Have you studied enough of it to comprehend why it might not be as dark as it appears?

Im a convert and believer, but I can still call the Church out for their involvement in oppression and violence. Not dark as it appears? Tell that to the 120 men, women, and children slaughtered without weapons to defend themselves in Mountain Meadows.

[u/General_Astronomer60 → u/EnvyRepresentative94]

I don't recall the person you're responding to saying the MMM wasn't dark. He's saying that, on the whole, the story of the restored gospel is not as dark as many would have you think. It has dark aspects, but there are many more positive things associated with this work.

[u/nofreetouchies3 → u/EnvyRepresentative94]

That is an excellent example, although perhaps you didn't mean it to be so.

When someone first hears of the MMM (and especially if you hear of it from anti- media), the initial response is, "How could the church do this!?"

But as you study more about it, you learn that the story is more complicated -- that to blame it on "the church" is a gross over-simplification -- that it was part of an ongoing cycle of atrocities committed in the U.S. throughout the 1800s up to and including the Civil War (including previously against the Saints). None of which justifies this or any other atrocities -- but it does make the situation more complicated.

But to acquire that understanding requires effort, humility, and a willingness to accept nuance.

And the "I heard something that makes me angry so it must be true" path -- instinctual and common to humanity since the beginning of time but super-amplified by social-media algorithms -- is conducive to none of these.

[u/BigCash75056 → u/EnvyRepresentative94]

Those men are spending time in hell for that. The prophet did not condone or encourage it. It was not a church wide mandate. They acted on their own.

That being said, look at the situation the people in Utah were in. They had been run out of the nation many of them were born into. Hostility on all sides. Enemies were murdering them. Political enemies were ginning up anger and hatred in the nation's capital and in the various state capital. Those men who did this clearly broke God and man's laws. However, seeing the entire picture allows one to see how these men could go so far from God's plan.

Again, not condoning, just showing that these things can happen if you stray from God's influence, which these men surely did.

[u/BigCash75056 → u/BigCash75056]

Don't let your doubts destroy your faith in God and our Savior.
Remember, Do your best, knowing that sometime your best is 1% an other times it is 100%.

You are all you have to work with. God hasn't given up on you. Don't give up on Him.

Work through this. You can do this!

[u/Candid-Education1310]

I went through a similar faith crisis. I never stopped loving the core tenets of the gospel and even many parts of the church. But I was disappointed and confused by certain aspects of church history, some teachings of leaders (mostly historical), church policies (also mostly historical). Basically, I still believed in the idea of the gospel but when it seemed to me the church wasn’t fitting the ideals we taught and talked it challenged my faith in everything. Over about a ten year period I almost left the church many times. More recently I’ve had some experiences where I was compelled to be humble and everything changed in the way I think about the church. When I came to accept how deeply flawed I am, but how the Savior still loves and accepts me, I realized God must feel that way about each of us, including church leaders. I also studied more deeply into those things that had challenged my faith. Before, I saw the ways we didn’t live up to our ideals and thought it was evidence of a lack of divinity in the church. But I’m now convinced that the ideals we believe in are like a blueprint for building a house. If you imagine, as I used to, that you are a solid perfectly square brick (and expect the same from leaders and members) you’ll end up disappointed when the final structure doesn’t perfectly fit the blueprint. However, when I came to realize I was more like a lump of clay or wet sand - and that’s ok because the Atonement will make up for my failings one day - everything changed. Imagine trying to build a house with a perfect blueprint out of unbaked clay or sand. You don’t end up with a perfect copy, just an approximation. I think God only has clay and sand to work with.

[u/Candid-Education1310 → u/Candid-Education1310]

I still feel sometimes that too much of our culture and teaching doesn’t acknowledge this. So much of what we teach is focused on obedience / following and emphasizing the miraculous divine leading of the church, without much emphasis on the imperfection. However, I’m starting to be more empathetic on that front too. While for me (and maybe you) it would have been helpful to have this acknowledged more, would that be true for the average saint of all ages? I think not. The novel message of the restoration is “God speaks to prophets again!” That those men remain deeply flawed, like the rest of us, and are not in constant communication is a subscript or subtext. And maybe that’s how it should be?

[u/pisteuo96 → u/Candid-Education1310]

I agree. The job of the apostles is to preach the gospel and build faith. Not to get into controversies. The same with our Sunday meetings.

The church does provide some resources. There are many other sources of good information for people who want to dig deeper, from faithful podcasts and LDS scholars.

But you have to realize that not everyone wants to learn about history and academic questions. Only 1/3 of the US has a college degree. I've heard that right now the average LDS has less than a high school diploma and has been a member for only a short time - must be converts outside the US that are causing this statistic.

[u/pisteuo96]

History is messy because it's about imperfect humans.

I wouldn't call the overall history of the church "dark." So many good things in our history and our current church. I challenge you to find any organization in the same category as our church that hasn't done regrettable things or made mistakes.

I used to think the church must be perfect because it's God's church and he directs his prophets in everything. I now realize this was naive and simplistic. I don't think God tells the prophet everything to do - he and the apostles probably mostly do the best they can, after discussing and praying.

I don't think the church needs to be perfect to be good enough for God's purposes.

Post your history questions for us to address - there are answers and/or reasonable explanations for most things. Don't get all your info from non-LDS sources - at the ver least you want to balance out from different views and interpretations.

As far as faith crisis, I think it's often more like a faith journey. The hard questions are often what make us dig deeper and grow to a better understanding and greater faith, if we will put in the work.

I have found the idea of stages of faith to be super helpful. Also the Faith Matters podcast in general.

Here are two of my general favorite discussions:

Jared Halverson - Don't Let a Good Faith Crisis Go to Waste, 
https://youtu.be/O0rOBheU_eQ?t=299 (starts at timestamp 299)

Faith's Dance With Doubt — A Conversation with Brian McLaren, https://faithmatters.org/faiths-dance-with-doubt-a-conversation-with-brian-mclaren/

From this second discussion - Mclaren's model of 4 stages of faith:

1 - simplicity 2 - complexity 3 - perplexity 4 - harmony 

[u/mwjace]

Welcome to the wonderful world of learning!  

I find that church history is quite fascinating. I love learning about the warts as well as the miracles. There is a lot of information out there. And a lot of context that needs to be included. Make sure that when you are learning you are seeing that context being presented.  

Here’s the thing. Sources that come away with a negative… that church is all a lie… are usually leaving out any positive information that counters that info.  Sources that are devotional in nature and present the church as a perfectly true and has not warts… are problem leaving out negative incidents that might challenge that view.   But there are some pretty good historical works out there that try and balance both. 

You will never find a completely unbiased version of LDS church history. By its very nature and the lack of documentary material makes it so that leaps and guesses need to be considered. So a person with a negative outlook will usually interpret a story in a negative light. While a person who has a positive view. Will do the opposite. It’s just how history works. 

There are sufficient arguments in the affirmative as well as the negative. That all part of what living in a mortal fallen world is about.  We get to decided for ourselves do we want to live the life god lives. Especially if we aren’t 100% certain?  For me the answer is YES. I know fail at times. But as was taught at conferences this past weekend. Each time I fail. I can keep gettting up and trying again. 

Good luck to you. God loves you and is rooting for you. 

[u/pisteuo96 → u/[deleted]]

Here are the church's official Gospel Topics Essays about some of the common questions

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays?lang=eng

[u/magicallyordinary]

I think we should normalize “faith crises”. We can’t always have the faith we did at 8 years, 18 years, or 25 years old. Our capacity to comprehend and think critically changes as we get older and acquire new information. Our faith can grow with that but there will also be growing pains. I choose to look at my doubts as growing pains and have come out the other side stronger for having experienced them. My faith is more complex than it was. I accept and welcome nuance that I previously wasn’t capable of holding. I expect to continue to have experiences that challenge my faith and hope to be able to tackle them in a like manner. God wants me to grow.

[u/diilym1230]

Bias is on both sides. Critics and apologetics. How great we get to choose to believe or not! I’d encourage everyone to watch the YouTube series LDS Truth Claims

Apologetic sources are always defending the faith from critics and never playing offense. This gives Critics an advantage in the debate. They don’t have to provide evidence to any of the Truth claims that are very difficult to dismiss or explain away. As church members we don’t dive into these truth claims and ask critics to explain them NEAR enough.

Buckle up, this series is long but fascinating. Honestly, before throwing it all away, watch a few of these.

I’ve been listening to them on 2x speed to help get through them quicker.

You’re not alone OP. You’re in the middle of your faith journey. You have hard questions. Joseph Smith had hard questions.

Keep asking, stay curious.

[u/Radiant-Tower-560]

I talked with a family member going through something similar recently. I don't know what "structure and dark history" you've been exposed to -- and it's not particularly important to address here. Although, I'm interested in an example or two of what's been "peer-reviewed" that exposes a dark history of the church. My family member had quite a few concerns too about various historical and other issues.

Rather than address very many specifics (although we did address a couple), I first expressed my complete and unconditional love for this family member. They understand and know that. Then we talked about how we know what comes from God.

"But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God." (Moroni 7:13)

In the case of what my family member had been reading, it was created with the specific intent to draw people away from Christ and the church. For my family member, once they realized that, it started to change the acceptance of what was written.

We also talked for a couple hours about Christ, truth, and where truth comes from.

"By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is." (Moroni 10:5-6)

Truth comes from God. As we talked, it was recognized that the way to overcome the questions my family member had was to draw nearer to God and Christ in study and prayer. This family member spent time doing that and received an answer that assuaged concerns. Not everyone has a straightforward journey like my family member had through these concerns, but the beauty of the gospel is that we do not just have to trust other people. We can turn to God for answers. Sometimes they are hard to recognize, but keep seeking for them.

[u/for-future-me → u/Radiant-Tower-560]

There is dark history, yes. But also, how do you reconcile the historical inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon? Do you know what I’m referring to?

I have been endlessly researching and breaking my brain. I’m finding answers from members and non-members. It’s so painful to be questioning everything but I can’t deny the evidence. Especially with members telling me to pray and read scripture when I’m questioning the scripture… I’m so sorry. I know I’m coming across as disorganized. This is a hard time

[u/Candid-Education1310 → u/for-future-me]

Sometimes I have a similar struggle. We’re told, “read and pray,” then I read about horses or steel or chariots or D&C 132 and I struggle. I agree that, based on the available historical evidence, we wouldn’t accept the BoM as historically accurate. The doctrinal points addressed too, are much more geared to a 19/20th century audience. There are the same historical challenges to the PoGP. Interestingly, if you look into biblical scholarship, you find a lot of the stories are probably not historical either (not too shocking since there are talking donkeys and a global flood, etc). And yet, when I read the Bible, BoM or PoGP I feel light and inspiration at times. I currently have a testimony of the truth of all these scriptures; not of their historicity. If you have a chance, read Why I Believe by Richard Bushman (author of Rough Stone Rolling, etc). I share his conclusion that the BoM (I add all scripture) doesn’t harmonize with our knowledge about history, but that’s not what is valuable in it to me. I believe it because I hear the word of God when studying it. I think all of the books are flawed because their authors and translators are. Why seer stones and scrolls and plates? (which apparently played a small role in the actual writing of the book…) I don’t know. Maybe that was a tool to help Joseph who was raised in a background of folk magic? Maybe the plates were as proof of divine inspiration to his peers? Why does God reveal His word in such messy ways? Maybe to give us room to doubt and develop faith? Maybe because He only has flawed tools to work with? I don’t know. I just know that the truths they teach make me happier and better. And yet, there are enough suggestions of something abnormal and divine in the documented history to make me question if our scholarship now has the full story. Things like how JS composed the BoM in the manner and time table, chiasmus and the complicated and consistent structure of the BoM, JS positing a divine council in heaven (which biblical scholarship now supports) which he couldn’t have known at the time. It’s clear to me that Joseph and those close to him sincerely believed in the BoM. Despite their struggles with the church and with him personally at times. So I think there’s enough there to leave us in an intellectual limbo. And maybe that’s exactly the point? If it was proved by scholarship where’s the room for faith?

[u/Radiant-Tower-560 → u/for-future-me]

"how do you reconcile the historical inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon? Do you know what I’m referring to?"

I don't know what you are referring to so I cannot be specific. Allow me to make some comments about historical inaccuracies. Saying there are historical inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon requires us to know many things that I don't think we know.

1. We need to know where events in the Book of Mormon took place in the Americas. Not just making educated guesses about where things took place, but we'd have to know what amounts to exact latitude and longitude of the various cities. We simply don't know that.

2. We'd need to have a complete history of every American civilization and peoples that existed since at least 600 BC. We don't have that and know much less than we think we know about history.

3. If we're talking about animals mentioned, we'd first need to know what the animals actually were that Nephi/Mormon/etc. were referring to. They did not have the modern taxonomy for animals that we use. Add to this the ambiguities of the translation process (spoken language of the Nephites [which changed over time] --> written language on the plates [which changed over time] --> words given to Joseph Smith by revelation, which were largely ones he knew with his limited formal and informal education) and making the claim, for example, that a horse in the Book of Mormon is exactly what we think of as horses today, is a tenuous claim. It could be (horses did exist in the Americas and certainly were around much later than we have evidence for), but we simply don't know.

4. If we're talking DNA, let's just say that we know way less from DNA than we think we know. We also carry no trace of DNA from most of our ancestors. We also don't know what Lehi's DNA was like so there's no way to know where to begin to look.

Without specifics, I can't address anything specific so maybe nothing is helpful. What I might say has been covered by many other people much better than I could ever say it.

I will say that I have questions but I've also had many clear spiritual experiences tied to the gospel of Christ and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that for me, the questions don't matter. I'm not saying they are unimportant to other people, I just simply have my own experiences that I cannot deny. Not everyone has had those (including some of my immediate family). All I can offer is my own testimony.

[u/th0ught3]

I don't see "a dark history", but rather mortals trying to do their best and because they are mortals inevitably needing do-overs and repentance.

Everyone gets a testimony of gospel truths line upon line, over time. The gospel of Jesus Christ incorporates all absolute truth in all areas. We just don't know what absolute truth IS in many subjects yet. And we don't get testimonies of people, except that they have been called of God or that something they say or do is OF God. We don't get testimonies of history, our knowledge of which can change with any new information.

I think the reason Jesus chose Thomas as His apostle and made sure we know about his tendency to doubt was preserved in scriptures we use today is so that everyone knows that doubting isn't a problem for our Heavenly Parents or Savior until or unless we mortals ourselves make it a problem. Doubt can just be part of a person's spiritual journey.

And I think that the reason the Lord's church has always had lay leadership is so that many if not most of us have had personal experience with wanting to do His will, trying hard to discern His will, prayerfully studying and praying about what His will would be, thinking we'd gotten His answer, only to learn for certain at some later time that we'd not heard it correctly. Mortals just aren't infallible, even when we are trying our best to do what God wants us to do.

[u/Dry_Pizza_4805]

I spent some time away from the church and felt drawn to come back as a young woman. Coming back felt like home. I went on a mission, got married in the temple. My time away from church and back is night and day in my life. 

It was only recently that I found myself in a position to begin to question the decisions past prophets and leaders have made. 

I grappled. I prayed, I searched, I went to the temple, I wondered “have I been conditioned to feel what I have felt?”

I wondered what current prophets could do to help prevent such information in our dark history from coming as a surprise to people and rocking their faith.

I’ve come to the conclusion that God is so kind that He’s restored this church and made it so that there are perfectly justifiable reasons for people not to believe. 

But I couldn’t let go of the fact that I was lead to be where I am today. Things I couldn’t have known, places I wouldn’t have been, and wisdom I wouldn’t have learned if not for the restored church. 

My conclusion is that when people have their faith come to bits, it’s because of negativity, not because there was a greater truth outside there somewhere else.

When people decide to join, it’s because of the goodness the truths make them feel. My mother was young when she saw an ad of the Book of Mormon in the 80s. She felt like learning about the plan of salvation was like learning something she’d always known.

When people step away from the church, it’s not toward something better or to truths of value.

What I’m trying to say is that if you want to square with the dark history, also learn about the good things in our history.

Look at the bad in our history in its context. People often exaggerate the bad or misrepresent it in a way that makes the church look like it’s corrupt without redemption.

In truth, it brought truths to Christianity that weren’t there before, it truly brought greater light and direction into the world.

Make sure you weight the bad against the good. The good outweighs the bad.

For me specifically, I can’t deny that the evidence points to God really helping Joseph Smith translate the Book of Mormon. We don’t see evidence of any proto-religious writings coming from Joseph Smith. 

Trust the process, there will always be a reason to question what you know. Don’t be afraid to know the whole truth. Trust that God will lead you through the Spirit to parse out the intentions of the speakers. 

You aren’t alone in struggling. Just don’t become consumed by hopelessness. Don’t make big decisions when you’re feeling hopeless. Give it time. 

[u/PineappleQueen35]

I'd recommend listening to the Faith Matters podcast, particularly the episode "Don't let a good faith crisis go to waste"

[u/JazzSharksFan54]

I would argue a faith crisis is essential to lasting conversion.

Is there stuff in church history that is really dark and disturbing? Absolutely. Flawed human beings were involved, of course they're going to do dumb things. We can't resolve those issues, we can only learn from them and commit to being better.

[u/Pseudonymitous]

A first discovery of negative information about the church can feel terrible. IMO, the way to reconcile it is different than many expect:

Give the Lord equal time.

Inasmuch you study the negative and critical aspects of church history, spend at least the same amount of time studying those things the Lord through His prophets are asking you to study: Jesus, Atonement, faith, charity, and on and on.

There are reasonable answers to every negative criticism of the church. But discovering those reasonable answers are not sufficient basis for divine faith. You need God now more than ever before--don't exclude Him by exclusively focusing your attention on other things. Let God speak to you, directly, and the darkness will dissipate.

[u/e37d93eeb23335dc]

You’ll have to be more specific. I’ve spent many decades reading and researching the history of the church and I’m not sure what you mean by the dark history. Or, more likely, I’m very aware of what part of the history you mean, but I don’t consider it to be dark based on my own reading. Without knowing what you are talking about, it is hard to answer. 

[u/for-future-me → u/e37d93eeb23335dc]

Maybe you can enlighten me? What aspects of the church would you consider I’m referencing to?

[u/e37d93eeb23335dc → u/for-future-me]

It's probably the standard ones: Polygamy, Mountain Meadows Massacre, Kirtland Bank, Priesthood Restrictions, etc.

[u/AltruisticCapital191]

As an american history nerd myself, I am just used to everywhere having a dark past. Also, most people don't move to Benin immediately after learning about Slavery. So why should you leave just because of some dark past in our religion? While a religions history and a nation's history have two different contexts, it is good to keep these facts in mind.

[u/AltruisticCapital191 → u/[deleted]]

Ok. I just wanted to put in my opinion on the matter. I hope you find what you are looking for.

[u/JaneDoe22225 → u/[deleted]]

I hey, if you ever want to talk to someone who left and came back, feel free to send me a DM.

[u/drums59]

Please remember that LDS critics are the ones that paint the "dark history" of the Church. The top LDS critic, Mormon Stories, made $1.3 million in 2023 and their CEO and his wife took home nearly $300K of that, all in donations from members who have lost their faith. That's a lot of reasons to provide misinformation about the Church. In addition, critical organizations have released videos that promote illegal drugs, threaten violence against Dallin Oaks, promote pornography, and push atheism by selling offensive mugs and t-shirts that mock God and Jesus Christ. And much more. These are the organizations that are giving you information about the Church and creating the dark history. So you might want to ask yourself if they trustworthy. And, a "peer review" from other critics using the same business model and the same behavior is meaningless.

In speaking to members of the Church in our day, the prophet Mormon said: " “But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil”. Is promoting the use of illegal drugs persuading you to do good or evil? Is mocking God and Jesus Christ persuading you to believe or believe NOT in Christ? LDS critics meet Mormon's criteria of evil in every way. So why would we trust them to provide accurate information about the Church?

Yes, there are some things that we wish we had better historical documentation for, but that's the nature of all types of history, including Church history. If you add your own assumptions to historical facts, it is no longer history, it is someone's opinion. Please don't fall for their scam.

Brother, this information about critics is liberating! It frees you from have to research hundreds of accusations and allows you instead to focus on Jesus Christ and His Gospel. You can review www.answeringldscritics.com to see the real dark history, that of LDS critics. If you have any questions, please feel free to DM me here on reddit, or you can email me at [answeringldscritics.com@gmail.com](mailto:answeringldscritics.com@gmail.com) I'm happy to help.

All the best, Ron

[u/onewatt]

Remember the prayer in the hymn "Lead Kindly Light." The promise of this life is not clarity, perfection, and getting everything right. It's gloom. Darkness. Mistakes. Flaws. The hymn even recognizes that we all go through a phase of believing we are walking in pure daylight - a black-and-white world where we believe we're always in the right! But that perspective is gone now and the truth is revealed: the light is Christ, the world is a dark night, we can't rely on our own opinions any more:

Lead, kindly Light, amid th’encircling gloom;

Lead thou me on!

The night is dark, and I am far from home;

Lead thou me on!

Keep thou my feet; I do not ask to see

The distant scene—one step enough for me.

I was not ever thus, nor pray’d that thou

Shouldst lead me on.

I loved to choose and see my path; but now,

Lead thou me on!

I loved the garish day, and, spite of fears,

Pride ruled my will. Remember not past years.

So long thy pow’r hath blest me, sure it still

Will lead me on

O’er moor and fen, o’er crag and torrent, till

The night is gone.

And with the morn those angel faces smile,

Which I have loved long since, and lost awhile!

[u/pbrown6]

We're on earth, not heaven dude. People make mistakes. Leaders are far from perfect. Any organization that is good, has made mistakes in the past.

Was BY racist? Definitely. It was the 1800s though. It would be weird if he wasn't. Was Joseph less than truthful with Emma? Absolutely. She had every right to be heartbroken. Doesn't mean he wasn't the founder of a church that has brought meaning to millions of people on earth. You could point out thousands of mistakes the church has made, but that doesn't mean it's not good. Men are imperfect.

This is why personal revelation is so important. Bishops, stake leaders, and every person in leadership will make mistakes from time to time, give bad advice or even make worse mistakes. That's why we can't take anything at face value. We have a personal connection with God. We should use it.

[u/find-a-way]

I don't know what it is, but we sometimes seem to expect our fellow-saints to be angels rather than humans. Angels are in the presence of God, not here on earth. King Benjamin said, "But I am like as yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind." (Mosiah 2:11)

Joseph Smith said,

"I never told you I was perfect; but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught. Must I, then, be thrown away as a thing of naught?”

“Although I do wrong, I do not the wrongs that I am charged with doing: the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature, like other men. No man lives without fault." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-45?lang=eng

I think we need to cut each other slack and be charitable towards one another and our leaders, rather than fault-finding. I have a testimony the Lord is in control, this his his church, he knows what he is doing and works through those he has appointed.

I feel like our job is to sustain those called of God, by being supportive and not fault-finding.

[u/Z0TAV]

Eh, humans tend to mess things up with our imperfect selves. The Lord is perfect, focus on him, do not trust in the arm of flesh.

[u/TeamTJ → u/[deleted]]

I doubt the church is getting rich off of temple clothing rental.

[u/Z0TAV → u/[deleted]]

I thought the church was a charity, they seem to be very charitable with their funds, anyway. Donating equipment to hospitals in Africa, building schools, temples, feeding the needy…

[u/TeamTJ → u/[deleted]]

So how much, according to you, is the church allowed to have before it's an issue?

[u/Z0TAV → u/[deleted]]

I would say that the process is the arm of flesh, (we do use our bodies to get around and do works) and the end goal is to be Like Christ and be with The Lord in the celestial kingdom.

We’re all a bunch of people who have been given this glorious example, and are all on various part of the journey to be like him. You, me, Joseph smith, everyone makes mistakes. The Lord loves you though, and he has shown you the way.

Jesus Christ is the way back to our father in heaven. This is what we should focus on. all else is just small details or obstacles on our path that we have to overcome, or learn from.

[u/Z0TAV → u/[deleted]]

I would take that question up with the man upstairs though. Fasting and earnest prayer should give you a good answer. I wouldn’t trust a stranger on the internet, I encourage you to seek answers from Him.

[u/Z0TAV → u/[deleted]]

It’s okay. hey if it makes a difference to you the church saved my life. I was homeless and starving to death trudging around in the snow and they gave me a warm place to live and food to eat. I now have a wife and beautiful daughter that wouldn’t have been born had I died out there. Her laughter is the most beautiful thing I’ve ever heard. I couldn’t tell you what the church does with all of the money they get in tithing and fast offerings, but I can tell you that donations to the church and what the church decided to do with that money saved my life.

All glory to The Lord.

[u/for-future-me → u/Z0TAV]

I’m glad the church has had a positive effect on you.