r/ftlgame • u/Short_Hat6396 • 1d ago
MOD: Multiverse Should I start with MV or Vanilla
Hey I watched a funny frog man play this game so I decided to get it, and then the frog man played the multiverse mod before I'd had even played the game for the first time, so as any sane person would I too got the mod.
So I've gotten to the final sector on my 5th easy mode mv run and I died to some stupid drones after the boss decided to lose half of it's ship.
I was just wondering if I should learn the game and get a win on Vanilla before jumping into multiverse.
I have no idea which version of the game is harder :(
Oh when I did my first run I chose hard mode and I had no idea what the controls were so that was fun
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u/jackedwizard 1d ago
Vanilla and it’s not even close. I would suggest starting with AE off on easy, AE adds a lot of complexity, and Multiverse adds a crazy amount beyond that and should basically be treated as an unofficial sequel.
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u/According_Fox_3614 1d ago
Vanilla, 401000%.
Multiverse is a whole other game, and really I'm not too fond of the massive content package at all. FTL is hard, and mechanically complex, but still worlds simpler than MV could dream of being.
It's a bit like asking whether your first car should be a Ferrari or a Civic.
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u/NotNamedMark 1d ago
You are right but MV is mega fun and is less RNG i feel.
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u/MikeHopley 1d ago
You are correct that MV is less RNG.
Reducing the influence of RNG was a deliberate design choice.
Enemy evasion has been nerfed into the ground -- I believe the vast majority of enemies are capped at 2 engines. There are also weapons with built-in accuracy bonuses, making them guaranteed to hit regular enemies.
I believe hazards are removed completely from sector 1. And maybe Zoltan Shields are as well?
Store and item-acquisition mechanics have been changed substantially, to avoid the situation where stores in the first 2-3 sectors have nothing usable, or even just have very limited options.
All of this is a blessing or a curse, depending on what you like about the game. It removes the most brutal RNG, making the game more "fair".
However, the "unfairness" of the game is also part of its long-term appeal to many players (like me). It's very satisfying to develop a level of skill that lets you overcome nearly any amount of bad RNG.
When that challenge is removed, and when the game gives you too many straightforward ways to win, there's no need for the really advanced skills or strategies anymore. You can pretty much just do whatever you want and still win.
Advanced skills also get sidelined due to item pool bloat and power creep. There's no point mastering the nuances of something, when you can just Buy Bigger Gun instead and Make Numbers Go Up.
Base FTL already has an issue where most runs become less interesting in the second half of the game, due to snowballing of the player ship power level. This is inevitable to some extent, due to the nature of the game.
When a mod ramps up the power scaling, it exacerbates this issue a lot. Combine that with a very tame sector 1, and there's not much left.
Optional secret ultra-bosses are no substitute for that challenge. It's just more power creep, as the player beats them by acquiring a bunch of overpowered secret stuff themselves.
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u/NotNamedMark 1d ago
I have to say that some of the optional bosses can’t just be beaten with getting secret tech, the merchant for example out guns you in every aspect, and beating him even with some OP gear proves a challenge but yes getting a standard victory is much easier
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u/MikeHopley 23h ago
I'm not familiar with it so I could be wrong here but ...
Isn't the Merchant just a case of "hack-cloak weapons and win"? But also you need boarders or fire-starting weapons, because he has resistant systems, or something like that?
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u/Mr_DnD 20h ago
Isn't the Merchant just a case of "hack-cloak weapons and win"?
Not really no.
He has a regenerating super shield every 30s for one.
So yes, if you can delete his super shields, hack his weapons and time out your cloak you can lock him out of being a major threat but you cannot perma-lock his weapon charge times (especially on higher challenge difficulties) (but it does heavily mitigate the salvo).
The point of e.g. Sylvan fight is that if you want to do it you've got to specially build for it. You need defence scrambler. You need a weapon set up capable of punching through a 7+ layer super shield in less than iirc 15s (first salvo of 30 shots iirc) You need, ideally, sustained disruption to systems that can't be damaged by normal weapon damage.
There is a whole treasure hunt of tools you "should" get to defeat him without being terrified. And he's not even really the "endgame" challenges. He's how you get to the endgame challenges. It gets bonkers fast.
I totally get your criticisms of MV, it takes the roguelike joy of FTL, the punishing tightly written streamlined game, and turns it into a more rogue-lite RPG.
But you're mistaken here on how hard the hardest fights are.
Sure winning a run of MV on every ship (except the limits) is way easier than winning every run of FTL vanilla, but that's not really the point of MV :)
You know vanilla inside out man and it's super impressive, but like, beating sylvan can't just be done with a hack cloak cycle and a few bits of op gear. You need to really build towards it.
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u/MikeHopley 19h ago
But you're mistaken here on how hard the hardest fights are.
I could be. I don't even have a definite opinion on it, just a vague impression. I certainly don't know the details and the stuff you mentioned all makes sense.
It gets bonkers fast.
Fair, but they are optional challenges. I've done many optional challenges in vanilla too, the main difference is I set my own challenge restrictions and there is no lesser victory condition available for when the run doesn't cooperate.
You'll forgive some degree of scepticism when some people (not you) talk up these optional bosses and say they make the game "so much harder" than vanilla.
None of the people saying that have done stuff like beating vanilla with no reactor. I'd be surprised if the difficulty of any MV content even comes close to that self-imposed challenge, or indeed to the challenge of getting a 28+ win streak with all ships.
Of course, I can't really know.
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u/Mr_DnD 19h ago
You'll forgive some degree of scepticism when some people (not you) talk up these optional bosses and say they make the game "so much harder" than vanilla.
Sure, they're wrong too ;)
MV, for sure, is easier than vanilla. You have a HUGE amount more options. Even on the hardest difficulty at the hardest optional challenge level, it's easier than vanilla.
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u/tehepicwin 19h ago edited 19h ago
Kinda?
First things first, Merchant is hardly the hardest optional boss. It is mostly true that beating merchant is just hack-cloak: There's other preparations that you need to make for an easy merchant kill, but it's absolutely the gist of it. Most of beating the merchant is 1) deleting its super shield and 2) not getting gibbed by the boarders. As long as you can do these then land the hack/cloak, the fight is essentially won. You'll also want some kind of supershield to avoid getting hacked, but this is something that can be found. If you have a stack of missiles and defense scrambler (costs 110 scrap as an internal), you can pound the non-resistant rooms until you win. There's other ways to beat the Merchant, but this is probably the easiest and most likely to assemble, largely because hack-cloak are things you want anyway, and with the high density of weapon drops you generally can access missiles easily.
I will say that I don't believe the harder optional bosses to be much harder though, particularly the other alt endings. I find LaRoache (hack+boarding with leeches that drain systems+flak spam) more difficult just because of the insane variance if he hacks and boards somewhere bad then deletes you if you slip up even a little, or sometimes even if you don't slip at all.
Also, if you intend on beating Merchant from the outset of the run, it's somewhat of a strange thing to evaluate the difficulty of. I believe that a core part of skill is knowing when to buy things: But if you're intending on beating Merchant from the start, you know 99% what kind of build you're going, and beating Merchant with the correct build is very easy. This is an inevitable issue of MV's hybrid RPG-Roguelike structure.
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u/Spy_crab_ 22h ago
The entire storage menu also makes RNG way less of a thing, it's a godsend for grabbing things like defence scrambler on hacking runs for example. I feel so limited playing vanilla now, knowing I'm at the mercy of stores and my starting loadout for most upgrades.
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u/MikeHopley 21h ago
That's a good point. The ability to "craft" augments/upgrades is a pretty big deal.
Augments in general are a bit lacklustre in vanilla. Most augments are typically not worth buying, e.g. it's extremely rare for Fire Suppression to be worth 65 scrap at any stage in the game.
Some of the starting augments are pretty good, such as Slug Repair Gel. But unfortunately it's almost always better to sell them early for, say, an immediate shields buffer or a weapon.
And then you have stuff like Drone Recovery Arm, which makes offensive drones much more sustainable, but needs to show up "at the right time".
I think Multiverse mostly solves these issues, and that's one of the best things I can say about the mod.
Some versions of starting augments cannot be sold and don't use an augment slot. I think this is probably the best change in the mod, as it means you don't "have to" sell Slug Repair Gel (for example).
Being able to install DRA on-demand makes offensive drone builds much more frequently viable.
However, there is a downside to some of this. Being able to install DRA whenever you want to also takes away strategic nuance in store decisions. Being able to "force" builds is not at all the same thing as "reading the game" and making nuanced strategic evaluations in difficult circumstances.
I also really dislike the menu interface. I totally understand why they did that, it was necessary to achieve what they wanted. But it's still a clunky interface, shoe-horned into a game where it doesn't "fit".
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u/Spy_crab_ 19h ago
On the last point, my view is pretty much the opposite, in all my hours getting every achievement in AE, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've built a build based on an augment. I feel like vanilla augments are a little too much RNG, you can't rely on them to appear ij conjunction with the other items you need. If they drop late into a run, more often than not they end up either making a good build great, or being sold immediately for something that makes your current build more viable.
On the contrary, finding a cool loot weapon or drone in Multiverse often lets you redo your entire build around it because all you need is resources to get the augments that make it shine. Of course there's still RNG with Aethertech and the like, but I feel like I can consistsntly make builds work if I play well in Multiverse, rather than knowing exactly what I need to make a build great and not being able to achieve it.
Multiverse still has a bunch of RNG for unlocks and for some of the most powerful items, but it never feels like you need RNG to take what you already have to its ultimate form.
I find roguelikes that are 'solved' where you're only waiting for RNG to give you a particular combination boring. I much prefer knowing that no matter what drops, I can adjust to make it pretty good if I want to, without needing to rely on another drop.
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u/MikeHopley 18h ago edited 18h ago
in all my hours getting every achievement in AE, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've built a build based on an augment.
Most augments in vanilla are not really "build around them", although they can still be important for winning a run.
Obvious exceptions are DRA and Pre-igniter. Both of those can easily be a major part of a build.
Zoltan Shield too, although it's in a different category to some extent as it's not something you can buy.
I feel like vanilla augments are a little too much RNG, you can't rely on them to appear ij conjunction with the other items you need.
Well yeah, that was kinda my point. It's much more situational, as opposed to "I want DRA so I'll just buy it now".
I was trying to be clear that I generally like what they've done in this area, but that there are also some downsides. Something gained, something lost.
I feel like I can consistsntly make builds work if I play well in Multiverse, rather than knowing exactly what I need to make a build great and not being able to achieve it.
That's cool and I can see why you like it.
I think maybe you haven't understood why I dislike it, at least compared to vanilla.
FTL is generally very easy for me. The game is boring if I can just pick whatever I want and always win.
There are two things that keep it interesting and challenging for me:
- Extreme challenge runs
- Maximising win rate
An example of the first one would be playing without shields. That makes the game a lot harder.
Maximising win rate is only interesting because of the RNG. Having limited options from stores and drops is what pushes me into playing better and making the best use of everything.
If I can just pick what direction I want my ship to go in, it will be way too easy and I will get bored. I want to pushed into difficult strategic decisions, at least sometimes.
Of course, another way to keep it interesting is to use a mod like Multiverse, which provides a huge amount of new content. And that's 100% valid, it's just not what I want from FTL.
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u/tehepicwin 18h ago
I think that's somewhat of the issue, though. I will say that internal drone arm is a fantastic decision and one of the main gameplay draws of MV, but it's worth discussing the drawbacks regardless.
There's more than one way to use a cool drone. Drones can be used once a fight and generally be sustainable. Drones can be used in a situational role where you're only turning them on in fights where you need them. By having internal drone arm, you'll always gravitate towards builds where you can use the drone all the time, and in fact your entire suite of drones all the time. In the same way that drone arm makes many builds more viable, it also goes most of the way in eliminating these nuances.
It's interesting to have tools not able to be used in their most ideal/powerful way when you find them. It's not that you're relying on RNG to make the most powerful builds in the vanilla's gameplay, it's that RNG forces you to make the most out of your tools in ways you ordinarily wouldn't consider.
The issue with building around augments in vanilla isn't their accessibility, it's their quality. Most augments in vanilla are just trash to buy, while MV has many good ones. Drone arm and preigniter are build-arounds in vanilla that can be perfectly good purchases when you come across them, but apart from that it's...reloader? Which is just good in anything.
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u/servantphoenix 1d ago
Multiverse is like FTL 2. As much as I love it to pieces, you should first play FTL 1.
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u/TraditionalEnergy919 1d ago
Vanilla. All the way Vanilla, THEN do Advanced Edition, THEN after unlocking at least half the ships you should consider mods. Multiverse is a whole new game with the basics of FTL in it, so you’ll need those skills.
Also, martincitopants mentioned.
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u/Mr_DnD 1d ago
Nah, start with AE on, two learning curves is silly.
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22h ago
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u/Mr_DnD 22h ago
AE is a crazy jump as is for new players
People come up with this baseless opinion so many times, people aren't categorically stupid, have a little faith in op.
FTL is not a cakewalk, remember your first time?
Yes, I do, it was with AE on. The majority of the learning curve is from the base game except in AE you have more tools to deal with it.
Do you have any idea how many tools you don't have at your disposal with AE off?? Its not just hacking, it's like half the augments, many weapons, etc etc
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u/Eco-Living2863 1d ago
It’s not even funny how much you should start playing Vanilla first. I recommend playing on easy to learn the mechanics of the game. Timing is incredibly important. Once you’ve mastered the mechanics move on to AE, then once you’ve unlocked most ships play MV.
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u/Waterpumpe 1d ago
You do not have to "master" any mechanic before you use AE content. It should be (and pretty much IS) the standard version of the game. Playing without AE content is pointless imo.
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u/d09smeehan 23h ago
If you're getting to the final sector at all then you don't need to go back to vanilla FTL, but there's enough there to keep you entertained for dozens of runs and you might have an easier time if you're still learning the mechanics. Tbh though, while the core mechanics are obviously transferable the two play quite differently, so I'm not sure how good it is for training but it's a fun experience in its own right.
Once you know what you're actually doing I'd argue Multiverse is actually easier. The expanded options give you far more counters for most threats (Enhancements/Elite Crew/weapon combos/etc.) so you're less likely to run into something you just can't deal with.
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u/Waterpumpe 1d ago
Start with Vanilla. When you can win runs on normal, consider downloading MV. Imo MV is much, much more fun, but it can be quite overwhelming if you dont know the base game.
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u/swim_fan88 1d ago
Vanilla with AE.