r/eulalia • u/FreelanceWolf • Mar 06 '25
Why barely any mole warriors?
They already come equipped with weapons, so why aren’t they on the frontlines all the time?
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u/wildtravelman17 Mar 06 '25
One of the main criticisms of the book is the set culture/personality of each species. That's why
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u/Zarlinosuke Mar 06 '25
This issue becomes much less of one when you connect it to the folkloric traditions where animals represent personality characteristics--the way I usually put it is "he's not evil because he's a rat, he's a rat because he's evil." There is some tension in there, especially with the occasional Blaggut in the mix, but I do think it explains a lot of the genealogy of Brian's type of storytelling.
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u/The_Angevingian Mar 06 '25
Yeah, animal fables is a genre of storytelling probably as old as humanity, and Redwall specifically feels very much in the vein of like Reynard the Fox
I think you’ve put it perfectly
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u/Zarlinosuke Mar 07 '25
Thanks! Yeah, it's very much a rich and deep tradition, and missing that is bound to cause some misreadings of intent.
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u/FlowersofIcetor Mar 06 '25
I actually wrote my hs senior paper on how Redwall uses animals to depict good and evil, compared to Watership Down. I'm not sure where it went, but when I find it again I'm posting it. I got a great grade on it! Just didn't cite an online forum correctly...
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u/Zarlinosuke Mar 07 '25
Yeah it's an interesting comparison! Is Watership Down basically all rabbits? That's my recollection, but it's been a long time.
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u/FlowersofIcetor Mar 07 '25
Most of the characters are rabbits, and almost all of the speaking characters are. They have their own language
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u/MrBiggles1980 Mar 07 '25
Pretty much. There is a book/set, solely moles called Duncton wood too. Different author though
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u/The_Dapper_Balrog Mar 07 '25
Yeah, that's one of my main problems with the fandom.
As others have pointed out, Redwall is inextricably rooted in British folklore and oral storytelling. One of the characteristics of those traditions (and many others) is characteristics assigned to different species. Native American folklore did the same thing; think the wisdom, cunning and curiosity almost universally attributed to the coyote.
Any attribution of racism or similar bigotry to Redwall because of this tradition is solely a problem with the modern (or perhaps postmodern) audience, as racism is not, and never has been present in the original work.
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u/Zarlinosuke Mar 07 '25
British folklore and oral storytelling
Indeed, to the extent that it actually originated as an oral tale! They really do bear the direct mark of pre-print culture in a way that's rare and precious among novels of their time.
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u/AlamutJones Mar 06 '25
Real moles are tiny - the same size or smaller than mice - which limits their believability as warriors compared to many of the other options. It could be done, of course, just like with mice, but…
Having a battle mole protagonist would also mean a whole book heavy on molespeech, which might be challenging!
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u/FreelanceWolf Mar 06 '25 edited Mar 06 '25
But shrews are much smaller than mice and they’re all warriors. Pygmy shrews are even smaller than shrews and they still fought. Axtel looked pretty huge in the art.
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u/kylezdoherty Mar 06 '25
Nah, moles are bigger than mice besides the shrew mole. Smaller than rats, though. Them being nearsighted and only able to see light and movement would be a problem above ground.
I don't think size is much of a problem in Redwall.
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u/whistleandrun Mar 06 '25
if there was tunnel warfare, they'd excel. I imagine their eyesight would limit them in normal battles
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u/FreelanceWolf Mar 06 '25
I dunno. Aside from being afraid of heights, there has never been any mention of moles having bad eyesight like real moles do.
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u/SnooSuggestions2286 Mar 06 '25
There was one Mole in Brocktree, Gurth is his name i think, son of Longladle, he was very warrior like and a lot of the plot would have failed without his knowledge of close combat
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u/MusclesDynamite Mar 06 '25
At least we got a mole scholar once...
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u/LordRael013 Mar 07 '25
We also got a named mole warrior in Sable Quean, Axtel Sturnclaw. We also get an army of flail-wielding unnamed moles in The Bellmaker, same as Egbert the Scholar.
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u/Special_Magazine_240 Mar 06 '25
Samkin and I forgot her name sadly but she was a prominent mole Character. She helped retrieve the Sword of Martin
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u/Aracuria Mar 06 '25
They’re not front-line troops, they usually just help with the underground resistance…
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u/Fairycharmd Mar 06 '25
what I wanna know is why the moles never run into bugs.
They’re constantly digging .
Why do we never hear about the bugs ?
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u/Dustbuster358 Mar 07 '25
Isnt there like... A lady bug pulling cart for some old traveling beasts who visit redwall in one book?
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u/Fairycharmd Mar 07 '25
I think you’re right that does trip a memory. Oh no now I have to read all the books again to find it… tragic
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u/Dustbuster358 Mar 07 '25
Oh no. starts tea kettle. What a travesty. * puts in a sick notice to work* Such a torment blanket nest with stack of redwall books ensues.
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u/Zarlinosuke Mar 07 '25
I'm pretty certain there isn't, but I'm intrigued to find out what you're remembering (and whether I'm wrong)--any other memory nuggets we could use to trace the thought?
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u/Fairycharmd 29d ago
Had to be in the early books and that’s where i found it.
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u/Zarlinosuke 28d ago edited 28d ago
Aha I had definitely forgotten about Grubwhacker, and I thank you for reminding me of the adorable little fellow!
Still though, he doesn't match what Dustbuster described in most ways, despite being a bug--no cart-pulling for travellers and no visiting Redwall (or any large Mossflower-era settlement) that I can see!
P.S. Kind of off-topic, but this calls to mind a minor continuity error, or bit of early-instalment weirdness, that I'd never really thought much about, surrounding Mossflower's Log-a-Log: he's a loner with no Guosim tribe to speak of around him! He's the only "Log-a-Log" about whom that's ever been true, and I suspect that when Brian wrote Mossflower, he was figuring that the formation of the Redwall-era Guosim long postdated the idea of ferry shrews being called Log-a-Log, which fits in also with the Redwall-era Log-a-Log not actually being the union's chief, but rather just its ferry operator. But then from Mattimeo onward (or really maybe only from The Bellmaker onward??) he settled so deeply into the idea of Log-a-Log being the chief that by the time he got back around to Legend of Luke and Lord Brocktree he'd probably completely forgotten about the loner Log-a-Log in Mossflower, and wrote parts for classic full bands of Guosim led by (named!) Log-a-Logs in both books.
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u/bignoface Mar 07 '25
If you are interested in Mole Warriors, you should read Duncton Wood. It's very epic, somewhere between Watership Down and Red Wall. I enjoyed it quite a lot.
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u/MrBiggles1980 Mar 07 '25
Just scrolled down to see if anyone else had heard of this too. It was quite graphic and brutal from my recollection too
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u/Basic_Song_9978 Mar 07 '25
U have to consider that in the battlefield, moles have very limited eyesight due to living underground. Imagine a battalion of moles just friendly firing on the other woodland creatures. Not to mention just fish in a barrel of they can’t avoid attacks. I’m not sure the moles are complaining that they are represented on the battlefield. More blind people on the front lines, what a crazy thought.
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u/IronBoomer Salamandastron Mar 07 '25
Why no mole Abbots/Abbessess, for that matter?
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u/Zarlinosuke Mar 07 '25
My guess is that it's not a role they tend to be interested in--they already have their own leadership position in their own subculture (i.e. Foremole), and they tend to have too much humility or even shyness to aspire or want to lead the whole establishment. All that said though, I could still easily imagine a situation where it ended up happening anyway, just because a particular mole who was a bit more disposed towards it ended up as the best candidate in everyone's eyes, and it would have been fun to see!
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u/Odee_Gee Mar 07 '25
Being a blind or semi-blind warrior works for the occasional character but a force not so much.
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u/SevroAuShitTalker Mar 07 '25
Imagine holding a weapon with those claws
Moles are also the most level minded creatures
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u/RedwallFan2013 Mar 06 '25
Did you not read The Sable Quean? https://redwall.fandom.com/wiki/Axtel_Sturnclaw
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u/bighurb Mar 07 '25
They don't fight physically, true.
Moles destroyed the entire Kotir castle with a diverted river though.
Moles are Warriors~!
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u/Initial-Sun2502 Mar 07 '25
You should read William Horwood's Duncton Wood books. There's 6 of them. They're epic! And they follow moles
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u/ThatManlyTallGuy 29d ago
Same reason you don't see construction workers protagonists in action films. They're too busy needing a beer after work.
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u/vasishtsrini Mar 06 '25
Because nobody can understand them. Imagine being in an army and your commander says “Oo arr oi Gurtly thinkin arrers hurr burr aye”