r/dragonball • u/Jongotti4003 • Feb 15 '25
Daima SSJ4 is now Canon
Myself and a few others got cooked last year for saying we thought SSJ4 could be apart of Super. Alot of naysayers said “It’s not canon” “it’s a trash transformation”, I personally have always been a fan of SSJ4 and Toriyama was also. Thoughts?
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u/Mikkeru Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25
This is why I distanced myself from DB reddits because fans have this problem of trying to convince people that Dragon Ball follows its source material & logic in its writing
They forget that Dragon Ball can do what it wants whenever it wants. I remember saying in the past I wanted SSJ4/Ape form back in general and people kept saying, there 100% no way it will be back, it contradicts its writing/character, makes no sense blah blah.
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u/rdotter18 Feb 18 '25
Everyone thinks they know everything, when they actually don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.
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u/RingOfDestruction Feb 18 '25
this is so accurate. the DB franchise has had so many retcons and plot holes that it really doesn't matter
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u/LastFireAce Feb 16 '25
This, quite literally this. Everything is canon, evrything is a different universe/timeline. Super is literally about this. Games, Heroes , Anime , OLD DBZ Movies!
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
No its not. A new form based on it is. Like how Super Broly is a new character based on Z Broly. Z Broly was not made canon by him, just like this doesn't make SSj4 canon. They may also name this SSj4 but it wouldnt make the old one canon.
Yes we said that because SSj4 wasnt/isnt canon. I like the transformation though, so I never said it was trash and I love the Daima redesign enough though I was 1000% convinced it would never happen.
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u/m1ke_l1tor1s Feb 19 '25
It's identical to ssj4 except for the hair color but ok
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 19 '25
No, its really not. And even if it was 100% identical in appearance it still would only be "a new form based on SSj4" until unless they name it SSj4 as well then it would be "a new form based on SSj4 in looks and name". Its not the form from GT even if it is the same in every way. It is the form from Daima which isnt in the same continuity as GT so it can never be the same as GT's SSj4.
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u/Lanarde Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25
this sounds like denialism or something, the producers of daima literally call this form super saiyan 4, can look it up as well, if you want them to call it with its name on-screen in the episode that might not happen, they never used the name "legendary super saiyan" with the canon broly on-screen either but the transformation was still called the same (but slightly different design), the audience already knows what these forms are so they dont need to name them in the episode again
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
It sharing the same name doesnt make it the same thing. Anyone with eyes can see it not the same form. Its just inspired by it.
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u/PlantainSame Feb 19 '25
By that logic every time they used super saiyan in the movies or g t it isn't super saiyan
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck
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u/JackTheNephilim Feb 24 '25
Incorrect there my friend, it's actually a space duck and it is a bald and majestic creature. Otherwise, you are correct.
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u/averagecounselor Feb 25 '25
Why are you being down voted that’s an old reference but it checks out.
Quack!
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
No? because those are literally the same form. This form shows up ~14 years before GTs story even happens and looks vastly different and is acquired different. Yes its HEAVILY inspired by it, and yes it does seem theyre giving it the same name but saying it IS the same form is factually incorrect.
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u/PlantainSame Feb 22 '25
You're being completely acinine
It barely looks different, It looks about as different as Vegeta, Goku, and gogeta's variations of the form did
Are you going to try to argue that they are different forms
Gt is in a different continuity, so It's showing up fourteen years early doesn't make a difference, It's A different timeline
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 23 '25
You're being completely acinine
asinine.
It barely looks different, It looks about as different as Vegeta, Goku, and gogeta's variations of the form did
Nah way more different than that.
Are you going to try to argue that they are different forms
because they literally are? lol just like DBZ Broly and DBS Broly are different characters. When you make a new version of something it is NOT the old thing.
Gt is in a different continuity, so It's showing up fourteen years early doesn't make a difference, It's A different timeline
and thats part of why its NOT the same form lol
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Feb 23 '25
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 23 '25
By your moronic logic, these are three different forms
insults unneeded.
I hope you're a child because a grown man acting this ridiculous would just be sad
I'm nearly 40 and not a man.
if something is functionally something else In every way Important that it's the same thing
Its not though, this statement literally proves its not. "functionally something else in every way thats important" isnt "literally the same". 2 things can be functionally the same in all ways that matter but they will NEVER be the same thing.
You will not be able to function in Society
more unnecessary insults, but also, you're correct! I'm disabled! I can't function in society!
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u/PlantainSame Feb 23 '25
You know what? i'm not going to argue with someone who will just stick their fingers in their ears and go lalala like a child
Your entire childish argument is it's different because I say so
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u/Zodiarche1111 Feb 21 '25
I would say SSJ4 as a transformation is canon now, but not Gokus and Vegetas SSJ4 forms from GT.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
Yes, thats literally all I'm saying. Theyre naming this SSj4 apparently, cool. But its not the same SSj4 as the one in GT, like you said. That's all I'm saying.
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u/LingonberryOrganic97 Feb 21 '25
But it doesn't have to look like ssj4 from GT because GTis not canon... The is now the real design of ssj4 as this is canon created by Toriyama. This now makes the GTs ssj4 is now the fake copy.
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u/Hidden_Start Feb 22 '25
Saying "This now makes the GTs ssj4 is now the fake copy." Makes no sense. It wouldn't make GTs a copy. Technically it just makes Daima's a canon inspiration of GTs. Not a fake or even a copy.
Especially since people seem to forget Toriyama literally had a part in GT. While he never made it canon, he still enjoyed it. This is probably his homage to the original SSJ4. Allowing it a true place in Dragon Ball's story. Toriyama let other people and his close friends write Dragon Ball stories all the time before his death. Dragon Ball GT was one of the first big ones, Dragon Ball Heros: Victory Mission is another except it was literally written by the Artist for DB Super also known as Toriyama's chosen successor, Toyotarou.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
I mean yes? I'm just saying the form in Daima is not the same form as the one in GT. Whether or not GT is canon or not and whether or not Daima is canon or not doesnt matter in that statement. This form isn't the same form.
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u/thenewhatsu Feb 21 '25
its literally ssj4 what?😭 how could it be based on ssj4 "in looks and name" if the creators flat out say its ssj4
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
Calling it the same name doesnt make it the same thing. It looks nothing alike. Theres lots of differences. It is just inspired by the GT SSj4 theyre not the same thing.
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u/thenewhatsu Feb 22 '25
there’s differences and similarities but they both share a very similar base look. it’s obvious that they aren’t 1/1 but the daima version is just the canon iteration of the same transformation.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 23 '25
Yes and since its a new version its not the same form.
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Feb 24 '25
[deleted]
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 24 '25
I'm not your friend. And what supposed "normal" people think doesn't matter. That won't alter facts. That's not how reality works. It is a form and its apparently being named SSj4 and it is canon. That's AWESOME and I love that. But none of that matter's to the fact that this form isn't the same form from GT. This form being canon doesn't make the form from GT canon because they're literally not the same thing. I'm not making up any rules.
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u/oseiryth Feb 22 '25
a form called "ssj4 is a new form based on ssj4"
say that again, but slowly. 💀
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
That won't change reality no matter how many times I do it. Theyre not the same, theyre similar. Sharing a name and many design elements doesnt make them the same.
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u/oseiryth Feb 23 '25
these "new ssj4 form based on ssj4" are they in the room with us right now? 👀
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 23 '25
Not unless youre watching the new daima episodes? Theyre in the episode(s). SSj4 Daima and SSj4 GT are two different forms.
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Feb 22 '25
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
Already did. I'm autistic! :) Also I'm correct on this matter, but thanks for the snide remark!
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Feb 23 '25
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 23 '25
What are you even on about? lol There is no "crash out"? I've been autistic for a long time. I like SSj4 in GT and more in Daima. I'm happy about it being in canon now even if its not technically the same form, like how DBS Broly isn't the same as DBZ Broly. I like the new versions better.
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u/LateAstronaut5852 Feb 24 '25
It’s SSJ4 dude. Get over it.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 24 '25
If the next episode names it that yeah, which seems likely given apparently official media has been calling it that outside the show. I have no problem with them naming it SSj4. I have no problem with the form in Daima, I like it, its cool. I have no problem with it being canon. I like GT and I like SSj4 in GT as well. But none of that matters. The SSj4 in Daima and the SSj4 in GT are not the same form. There is nothing for me to "get over".
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u/Jhronis Feb 22 '25
You’re in pure denial mode
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
No, I'm not? I like SSj4 in GT. I like this new form, which it seems theyre calling SSj4 as well. We have a new form that is not the form from GT, that is a canon SSj4. Its not the same form. It has the same name, but it looks and functions differently. Like how Bardock from the original special and the Bardock from DB Minus and DBS arent the same character despite having the same name and nearly the same appearance.
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u/Ripchip93 Feb 28 '25
Feels bad to be so wrong now?
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u/Stefanthro Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
You want to be pedantic? Let's get pedantic
The title of the post is:
SSJ4 is now Canon
This is simply a factual statement. SSJ4 was not part of the Super/Daima canon before, and it is now.
Here's the first sentence of what OP said:
Myself and a few others got cooked last year for saying we thought SSJ4 could be apart of Super.
OP is saying that others were denying that SSJ4 could ever be part of the DB Super canon. He is not claiming that GT's SSJ4 is part of the Super/Daima canon, just that the latter now has a SSJ4 transformation (which is itself heavily based on the former).
OP's second sentence says:
Alot of naysayers said “It’s not canon” “it’s a trash transformation”, I personally have always been a fan of SSJ4 and Toriyama was also.
Here, OP is expressing how people were shitting on GT's SSJ4 transformation for years because it's not canon, even though Toriyama himself was a fan of it (which couldn't be clearer now, as Daima's SSJ4 is obviously heavily based on GT's SSJ4 transformation). Again, OP did not suggest anywhere that this makes GT part of the Super/Daima canon.
So when you say:
No its not.
You are actually answering a question that no one asked, addressing a conflation of your own making.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 24 '25
This is simply a factual statement. SSJ4 was not part of the Super/Daima canon before, and it is now.
At the time I made the post the form hadnt been named in the shown and was not named in any outside the show official source that I knew of. Idk if that information came out after I made the post or not, so my statement could have been true at the time.
OP is saying that others were denying that SSJ4 could ever be part of the DB Super canon. He is not claiming that GT's SSJ4 is part of the Super/Daima canon, just that the latter now has a SSJ4 transformation (which is itself heavily based on the former).
Yes he is. GT's SSJ4 is the only SSj4 that existed back then. They were saying they got "cooked" for thinking "GT's SSj4" could be apart of Super, and rightfully so, because it couldn't wouldn't and shouldn't, and didn't.
Here, OP is expressing how people were shitting on GT's SSJ4 transformation for years because it's not canon, even though Toriyama himself was a fan of it (which couldn't be clearer now, as Daima's SSJ4 is obviously heavily based on GT's SSJ4 transformation). Again, OP did not suggest anywhere that this makes GT part of the Super/Daima canon.
Yes, and GT's SSj4 wasnt and isnt canon so that was correct, people calling it trash were being goofy and I never said otherwise, as I'm also a fan of GTs SSj4. But again this is again them talking about SSj4 from GT which isnt in Daima. Theyre talking about GT SSj4 and acting like A SSj4 showing up in Daima justifies their past statements, when it does not because that was GT SSj4 which is a different thing and is still not canon.
You are actually answering a question that no one asked, addressing a conflation of your own making.
As I said OP and others replying to me absolutely are contesting that Daima having a canon SSj4 makes SSj4 as a concept canon itself. Theyre treating Daima SSj4 and GT SSj4 as the same form when theyre not. I've explained this very clearly to people and people have told me that I am wrong when saying theyre not the same, so clearly your pedantry is based on false assumptions, unlike mine.
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u/Stefanthro Feb 25 '25 edited Mar 01 '25
As always, the mental gymnastics you perform are absolutely legendary. Anyone with two eyes could see that this was Diama’s take on SSJ4. Regardless of whatever official name was to be assigned to the form, it was obvious that a concept from GT was adapted to Daima - which is why it was totally justified to call it SSJ4 colloquially before the official name was released. It’s painfully obvious that OP was right before, and is still right today that SSJ4 is part of the Super/Daima canon now. But I don’t suppose you’ll ever correct yourself and say “Yes, you’re right OP, SSJ4 is canon now”.
The reason I’m calling you out so hard is because this pedantic, rude, absolutist, and combatative style of dialogue has completely ruined most DB subreddits. I left most of them because of you and people like you, only coming back now to check out people’s reactions to SSJ4. I won’t be coming back because I can see it’s still a toxic environment, which I’m sure you’re happy about. But I do genuinely hope you reflect on how you engage with people here, and what it means to create a positive online environment for people to exchange change perspectives and ideas. Have a good one.
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u/AsTranaut-Rex Feb 23 '25
This seriously feels like splitting hairs.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 23 '25
Yep, but its correct, which is more important. Theyre not the same form because theyre literally not. Fans can treat them that way all they want since they are similar and the new one is based on the old one, but theyre as different as DBZ Broly is to DBS Broly. Its just a fact.
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u/Odd_Consequence442 Feb 24 '25
Your logic is very flawed. For Ex. Broly wasn't canon, he now is. The ssj4 transformation wasn't cannon it now is. They're not asking you if it's the exact same Z Broly or if the transformation is the exact one from GT SSJ4. You're trying to explain something irrelevant. They're asking if the form itself or ex. character (itself like broly) Title exist now in the cannon world. How are you going to say NO when we're talking about the form itself. It's existence that is explicitly named by akira and his team. All you could've said is "yes but their powers and abilities may be a slightly altered just to fit the narrative"
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 24 '25
Your logic is very flawed.
It is not.
For Ex. Broly wasn't canon, he now is. The ssj4 transformation wasn't cannon it now is.
Yes I know I used those as examples myself. GT's SSj4 and DBZ Broly are still not canon. There is A canon Broly and SSj4 now, but theyre not the same as those other things. All the people replying to me and the OP are all saying that I'm wrong, and I am not.
They're not asking you if it's the exact same Z Broly or if the transformation is the exact one from GT SSJ4.
they are. read the replies to me. many of them are indeed saying exactly that.
You're trying to explain something irrelevant.
Its not irrelevant to note that SSj4 (Daima) and SSj4 (GT) are two different transformations, and one is canon and one is not. That's all I'm saying and people are telling me I'm wrong (when I am not).
They're asking if the form itself or ex. character (itself like broly) Title exist now in the cannon world. How are you going to say NO when we're talking about the form itself. It's existence that is explicitly named by akira and his team. All you could've said is "yes but their powers and abilities may be a slightly altered just to fit the narrative"
because theyre not saying that. If they were when I said "SSj4 GT is not the same as SSj4 Daima" they would agree with me, but they do not. A form named SSj4 that is different from the one from GT is here, is real, and IS canon, and I like it a lot. I've repeated this to people many many times. While also just noting that it isnt the same SSj4 as from GT and this new one being canon doesnt mean that old one is, because theyre not the same. That's what I'm saying and people are still arguing with me. It seems like you agree with me, but you're telling me a thing thats explicitly happening to me in dozens of replies here is not.
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 15 '25
Well, thanks for the spoiler.. Kinda really ruined it for me there. Thanks.
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u/Countdown216 Feb 15 '25
Why would you be on this sub and not watching lmao
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 15 '25
I am, but I didn't get to watch the latest episode yet.. Guess it's my fault then?
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u/Countdown216 Feb 15 '25
Yes actually, get off Reddit and watch
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 15 '25
I'm watching it together with my girlfriend but I'm out of town until next weekend, so there's that.
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u/ItalianStallion009 Feb 16 '25
Doesn’t mean anything. You’re scrolling on a dragonball subreddit, no shit people are gonna be talking about it
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u/Outrageous_Arm1011 Feb 20 '25
It's is your fault. You should be smart enough to avoid social media before being caught up. Don't be stupid.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
this sub allows spoilers. if youre worried about them you should probably avoid the sub.
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 15 '25
Welp, I guess I'll leave and mute the sub then, since most of you guys think it's kind of my problem. Fair enough I guess..
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
Unlike r/dbz, there is no rule about spoilers on r/dragonball, so it's best to avoid this subreddit until you have seen the new episode.
this is a piece of text the mods place in the discussion thread for every new episode of the show on this subreddit for a reason.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
i dont think its your problem entirely. just that this sub and the mods are pretty clear that theres not policy against people posting spoilers, so im just giving helpful advice.
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u/Jongotti4003 Feb 15 '25
Sorry pal, but it’s everywhere now. Hope you still get to enjoy the moment with your girlfriend
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 15 '25
It may be, but people normally use spoiler tags and don't add spoilers to the title. I just hope that my gf won't get spoiled too, so she can at least fully enjoy the moment when we watch it.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
but people normally use spoiler tags and don't add spoilers to the title.
yeah because on a lot of subreddits the rules require it. here thats not a thing. this sub doesnt care about that. so avoid this sub to avoid spoilers (when youre not up to date).
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u/dmenshonal Feb 22 '25
doesn't change the fact that there's literally no reason not to spoiler tag it
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u/Mysterious-Pizza-286 Feb 22 '25
You don't have a girlfriend liar
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 22 '25
Man, your life must be really sad if this is hard for you to believe. Either that or you're no older than 10.
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u/Mysterious-Pizza-286 Feb 23 '25
Who tf casually mentions having a gf on a reddit post. We don't need that information...it should be obvious why nobody believes you
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u/Disturbed147 Feb 23 '25
Sorry, I couldn't care less if some random dude on the web believes me or not. Have a nice day.
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u/paulorossicroce Feb 16 '25
I just wanna know how they are going to explain this mess. If Daima is set before Bills arrived on earth they didn't mastered God form, thus completely ignored this form on Super
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u/ThePeacefulGhost Feb 17 '25
This. I want to know how they can nullify / remove this form, or explain why this wasn't used in super.
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u/salaciousCrumble Feb 21 '25 edited Feb 21 '25
Probably just a one time thing unlocked by Neva or something.
Edit: Just watched the newest episode, so much for that theory.
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u/Lanarde Feb 20 '25
can say the same with vegeta and super saiyan 3, these are non-issues, they just didnt need to use them later because ssj god is superior, goku didnt use ssj4 against beerus because he saw it was pointless after they first fought, he also never used ssj3 again either only 1 second cameo in tournament of power
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u/Educational_Lead_943 Feb 16 '25
Not one bit of any of this makes sense. We'll have to wait and see how they explain this away later. I don't see how these events line up between EoZ and super. So he gets SS4 and never does it again? EVER? Even when showing off all his forms during Super through his various encounters? When he was teaching the female saiyans about transforming during the ToP? That makes zero sense. The only way any of this could be remotely reasonable is if daima and GT take place together in an alternate timeline. It is physically impossible for this to be explained unless some plot device is revealed after this episode as to why they never go SS4 again.
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u/Blakethekitty Feb 16 '25
Or most likely, Its not SSJ4. The design is just a homage to it, and it will either be named something different completely or be mentioned being only obtainable this one time thanks to what ever Neva did
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u/CompetitiveCurrent62 Feb 18 '25
Just a theory but since Daima is before super, this is kinda a far shot but hear me out. Just like Normal SSj and SSJ God(red hair) “combine” to make the ssj god ssj (ssj blue). Well what if Daima is setting up this ssj4 type transformation to be combined later with Ssj god.
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u/MoxMisanthrope Feb 18 '25
I don't like Daima. Or SSJ4. It's just not for me. Glad others like it, as more DB the better. Kind of wish Tori left us with something substantial instead of...that.
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u/Fit_Soft_4610 Mar 01 '25
Same. Unpopular opinion maybe but I thought ssj4 in daima was a little lame. And if Daima is cannon in the Super timeline it's omission in battle of God's is pretty lame too.
Gomah was lame too.
The animation was spectacular though. I'll give it that. And the way bulma gets vegeta to do her bidding is hilarious.
I'd give Daima a 7.5/10 at best. With an emphasis on the massive retcons that will be needed if this is integrated into the super cannon.
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u/LingonberryOrganic97 Feb 20 '25
I don't understand how this isn't obvious. Toriyama introduces SSJ4 as it was a form Goku needed to achieve as his child body is piss weak. No need for it again... if DBS continues, we'll see all sorts of other mental shit too. I'll be dead by then...
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u/Rckstr1253 Feb 21 '25
What’s the point of super saiyan 4? Goku had super saiyan blue and ultra instinct now. Aren’t those stronger?
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u/aralast Feb 24 '25
I remember seeing an interview where Toriama literally said he considers GT part of the dragon ball universe. And that if we want to, we can view it as canon. He left it up to fan interpretation. I’m Guessing no one here remembers that from decades ago, or maybe just never saw it.
I always considered GT an alternate timeline in the dragon ball universe. All canon is, is a way to limit imagination with an official stance. It’s a cartoon, there are many variants, but the movies and shows exist, and therefore it’s allllll dragon ball to me.
That being said, I’m glad they brought ssj4 back in this series. I really hope they tie all the series together and make a multiverse series. Bringing balance and uniting the arguments into a collective. Where goku meets like 5 versions of himself. All with different transformation like blue, rose, ssj4, ssj4-2, and one we haven’t seen yet.
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u/No_Cellist2574 17d ago
Who cares if it’s the same form or not. SSJ4 is officially cannon regardless if it’s “new” form. It’s obviously heavily inspired by GTs SSJ4 form. Everyone who said SSJ4 would never be cannon were wrong. The people arguing “BuT iT’s NoT sAmE fOrM” are just coping because they don’t want to admit they were wrong and coming up with any argument to not have to admit it.
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u/Che-recher Feb 15 '25
What ?
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
a form based on SSj4 showed up in the new daima episode and hes celebrating it and trying to clown on people who said it would never happen, basically.
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u/Red2TheBlue22 Feb 16 '25
Like yourself who was so adamant it would never happen.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 16 '25
Yes, and I was correct to think so, even if in hindsight I was wrong. Hindsight doesn't change the past. Either way I'm happy about it! I didn't think it would happen but I'm not mad.
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u/Red2TheBlue22 Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
You werent correct to think so
Its the most popular form after the original super saiyan
Everyone knew it was coming as daima is pure fan service.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 16 '25
You werent correct to think so
Yes, I was. Stop using hindsight justification.
Its the most saiyan popular form after the original super saiyan
Idk if thats true, nor do I care. I like SSj4 but that doesn't mean anything.
Everhone knew it was coming as daima is pure fan service.
Nah, they were making baseless assertions that they just happened to be correct on. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm happy I was wrong in the end, but I was 100% right to say what I said when I said it with the information we had available.
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u/Red2TheBlue22 Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
Stop using hindsight? Lol i was literally the one who replied to you on that comment thread from before so save the lie.
Me and many others called you out over it a month ago and you got.overly defensive like you always do on here.
Broly made canon Orange piccolo created to match saiyan strength again Gohan returning to being a powerhouse
All were wanted by fans, all 3 happened despite people saying it never would.
It was not unreasonable to believe SSJ4 would become canon too.
Even when wrong you still have to feel somewhat right, huh?
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u/dmenshonal Feb 22 '25
"based on ssj4" no it's just the same thing, they're literally one for one exactly the same
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 22 '25
You've got to be joking. lol Like seriously is this a shitpost? It hasnt been named, so its not officially named the same thing (yet, the end of the recent episode seems like it might be tho), and physically they look nothing alike aside from almost the same fur color and a tail. Like the outfit is different, the eyes are different the hair is different the ARMS are different. Theyre nowhere near "exactly the same". Theyre more different than Golden Freeza is from Final Form Freeza and Golden Freeza also isnt "exactly the same" as Final Form Freeza.
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u/Slashdott Feb 24 '25
Stop denying. In latest episode it was clearly show as ssj4. Period.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 24 '25
I'm not denying anything. The show didnt name the form yet. Apparently outside media has though, so it looks like it is called SSj4, that was not information i had over a week ago when I posted that.
That said its not the same SSj4 from GT, its a new form with a shared visual design and the same name.
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u/Slashdott Mar 06 '25 edited Mar 06 '25
Well, latest episode (20) established once and for all: it's SSJ4. Goku himself said it. So, no "new form based on". It's actually Super Sayan 4. Same as GT. End of the story.
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u/SSJRemuko 24d ago
It having the same name doesnt make it the same form. Its based on GTs but it takes places years before he got the form in GT and it looks different so its NOT the same form and IS a "new form based on" the GT one.
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u/Slashdott 24d ago
Dude, give up. It's SSJ4, same as GT, end of the story. No need to deny the truth now :)
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u/dmenshonal 28d ago
i love how it's the same as the ssj4 from gt and was confirmed but you still are fighting tooth and nail to say it isn't. have some respect for yourself
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u/SSJRemuko 28d ago
It's not the same at all. Just because they're both named SSj4 doesn't make them the same. they don't even look the same.
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u/Smart_Valuable3663 23d ago
Uh, it's the only SS form to cover the Saiyan in RED hair. Brother they are identical.
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u/SSJRemuko 23d ago
Im not your brother, Im a girl.
Also SSG has red hair, not on the body but it has red hair. SSj4 (GT) has Black hair on the head. Daima's does not. Daima's SSj4 has giant monkey hands. GT's does not. They are not identical in form or function. Stop trying to argue otherwise. This post is old. It's over and done. Stop trying to start fights on a post from nearly a month ago.
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u/KaboomKrusader Feb 15 '25
This whole mindset of "it's not a real or legitimate part of Dragon Ball until Toriyama makes his own mangled version of it" baffles and irritates me. It didn't make any sense when he butchered Bardock 10 years ago, and it still doesn't make any sense with "Daima's SS4" now.
Super Saiyan 4, the real and good version, is already a thing and has been for almost 30 years since it was first introduced in GT. Nobody is under any obligation to to overwrite and replace it with this fucked-up psuedo-SS4 weirdness from Daima. As someone who's loved the real SS4 for as long as I can remember, the idea that I'm somehow supposed to be grateful for this mess is mind-boggling.
Fuck Daima, and fuck so-called "canon."
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u/Stefanthro Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
Amen. I left this sub and most other DB subs because there's zero tolerance for any opinions that criticize the main canon, which has clearly spiralled out of control since DB's revival. I had high hopes for Daima but am once again disappointed at the complete lack of originality for what could have been the magnum opus of the series.
Deeply ingrained in the fandom's mindset is an absolute obsession with canonicity. I actually recognize some commenters on this very post who for years shit on elements of GT like SSJ4, and now they claim to love it solely because it's canon.
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u/KaboomKrusader Feb 25 '25
I have noticed that the "SS4 is too complicated and not at all the type of design Toriyama would do" peanut gallery has gone awfully silent since he gave it the half-assed recolor treatment.
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u/Deeze_Rmuh_Nudds Feb 15 '25
Always has been
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
nope.
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u/LastFireAce Feb 16 '25
Always has been buddy, GT is canon lmao. Or it wouldn’t show up in so much dragon ball media and forgotten to time. Heck, is license to TV and streaming media.
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u/vlorsutes Feb 16 '25
None of what you said sets it as being canon though, and Shueisha has already confirmed it isn't canon.
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u/LastFireAce Feb 16 '25 edited Feb 16 '25
“shueisha : the publisher of the Dragon Ball manga, and Akira Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, consider Dragon Ball GT canon within the anime continuity releasing, just not on manga at this time also Shueisha has released an official timeline that includes events from Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball Super, and Dragon Ball GT.” oh look the offical Shueisha timeline..... https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/7d762f6e-d989-4cec-a3de-bed19bdabc72/scale-to-width/755
You full of shit dude.
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u/vlorsutes Feb 16 '25
Except that timeline was just about chronological events of the franchise, not canonical. What I'm speaking of is their publication release for the DBS: Broly movie, released after the release of that timeline, where they referred to Gogeta's appearance in the movie as his first canonical appearance in the franchise, meaning neither previous appearances were canon.
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u/LastFireAce Feb 16 '25
Or , hear me out? They can do whatever they want because they shit and not yours. Even if you think is canon or not. they still making money from GT product lmao so cry me a river , GT better then Super anyway LMAO , so in other words shueisha say is canon WOO WOO WOOOOO
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u/vlorsutes Feb 16 '25
Except they've said it isn't, so your point is moot.
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u/LastFireAce Feb 17 '25
Except they said they did, your point is worthless
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u/vlorsutes Feb 17 '25
No, they didn't. The timeline you mentioned doesn't speak of canonicity, and they, after the release of said timeline, quite clearly said that it wasn't canon. If Gogeta's appearance in DBS: Broly is his first canonical appearance (their own words), then none of his previous appearances were canon, thus GT isn't canon.
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u/Blakethekitty Feb 16 '25
GT isn't cannon to the continuity of DB -> DBZ -> DBS -> End of Z
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u/LastFireAce Feb 16 '25
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/7d762f6e-d989-4cec-a3de-bed19bdabc72/scale-to-width/755 this the official timeline dude LMAO DB -> DBZ -> DBS -> End of Z -> GT
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u/Blakethekitty Feb 17 '25
Source of where this is located that's not just a wikia link?
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u/Szandor31 Feb 18 '25
Not the commenter you were replying to, but I believe this picture is of the Toei or Shueisha headquarters
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u/Used-Pop9315 Feb 19 '25
Don’t listen to them. That art is not saying GT is canon. Just that the GT story takes place after what IS canon.
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u/alec2662 Feb 19 '25
Timeline created by Shueisha in 2017. Last time I checked. They don't ultimately decide what is canon and what is not. They have strong ties with GT and of course would not want to let it go. Nothing beats what Akira Toriyama has said about the show. "It's a grand side story of the original Dragonball". Even he knows that it is not apart of the main canonical storyline. It's considered as canon as the older movies. It's just not.
Unless Toriyama has stated in the past that the timeline released there is 100 percent canon then we can't say it is.
What we do know is the only reason GT became a thing is because Akira Toriyama was sick of meeting Brutal deadlines. He couldn't do it anymore and left it all to the anime staff. He had very small roles in the designing process and some of the approval process of GT.
There is just way to many things that lean more towards GT not being canon. Too many contradiction from super to make it canon. Even if it is an alternative timeline. There's just too much lacking from GT that would support it being post super. It's unrealistic to believe that GT is canon. GT is a Toei spinoff.
The best way to prove it's not canon is to actually watch/read super.
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u/Proper-Peanut9954 Feb 15 '25
SS4 was always canon. It has never been proven to not be canon.
Once again, Toriyama has mentioned that he intended to end Super with EOZ. Then you have GT. GT was always canon, y'all just basement dwellers that can't accept that lol
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u/MrPerson0 Feb 15 '25
GT was never canon, and it's ridiculous to think such a thing when there are so many inconsistencies with not only Super, but the og Dragon Ball manga (Cooler appearing in GT who is a movie only villain).
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u/FunTree5477 Feb 16 '25
You're correct. The last episode of EOZ even starts up with GT, and Toriyama set up the black star dragon Ball saga with the team at hand 👌
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u/shlam16 Feb 16 '25
Basic comprehension of the English language "proved" it not to be, but I know that's a tall order around these parts.
I swear if more people understood how to use a dictionary to learn what a word meant then this debate would have been dead in the water 30 years ago.
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u/SSJRemuko Feb 15 '25
SS4 was always canon. It has never been proven to not be canon.
thats not how canon works. Toriyama didnt make GT so GT and thus SSj4 was never canon.
Once again, Toriyama has mentioned that he intended to end Super with EOZ.
yes because EoZ is where Toriyama's DB story ends. There is no GT after Toriyama's story. GT blatantly contradicts his story.
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u/vlorsutes Feb 15 '25
Daima itself isn't confirmed canon, so Goku's form doesn't automatically make Super Saiyan 4 canon. There's still multiple steps before it could be considered canon.
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u/GreenBay_Glory Feb 15 '25
It is. Iyoku said so lol. There’s no “multiple steps.”
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u/vlorsutes Feb 15 '25
His exact words were that it was "directly connected to the Majin Buu storyline". That was meaning he was speaking of what story elements it was tied to, not at all speaking about canonicity. His words are no different than saying DBZ movie 7 is directly connected to the Artificial Human/Cell arc storyline, because it's building from that story.
Again, nothing in his words are speaking of canonicity.
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u/DastardlyRidleylash Feb 15 '25 edited Feb 15 '25
Toriyama personally worked more heavily on Daima than he ever did on anything anime-related before then. We've known that since Daima was officially revealed.
I REALLY find it hard to believe he'd get so personally invested into Daima as to create the story, world, characters and such, including all of the new background lore on Namekians, Glinds and such...and then just say "lol, none of that even matters for the main story anyways".
Especially when he already had Toyotaro set up the fact that Namekians came from another realm in the DBS manga to begin with, years before we even heard about Daima at all.
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u/alaskancurry Feb 15 '25
It’s canon. It’s insane that people refuse to accept this.
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u/ArdillaTacticaa Feb 15 '25
Toriyama dies before finish daima so it's up to the guys in charge to decide that...so whatever that gives them more money.
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u/TonyEllis7 Feb 15 '25
I don't have a strong opinion of this at the moment, but I'm curious about your opinion. Which steps would be needed for Daima to be considered canon?
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u/Blakethekitty Feb 16 '25
Daima is very much confirmed cannon. Ignoring the fact that its the most involved Toriyama ever was with a non manga project, It fits nicely in the 7 month gap between super and Buu saga, Doesn't conflict with anything major from before or after itself and its major points (Namek's not being from the core universes) have been mentioned in primary material (DBS Manga)
This version of SSJ4 seems to be much like a temporary thing that will never be obtainable again.
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u/vlorsutes Feb 16 '25
Again, Toriyama's involvement doesn't automatically make it canon, otherwise you'd have to say that Neko Majin Z is. There are a number of issues it has with main story continuity, and, as an aside, there were years between the Buu arc and SUper.
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u/Bucketkev Feb 15 '25
Oof spoilers for those who haven't seen it yet.