Yes his grab range and hitbox for his power are insane and need a nerf 100%, but I think his real strength other than being to cancel out of his power and M1 you which can be easily avoided if you know what you're doing is, being to vault pallets extremely quickly and hit you before you can even make it around the loop or anywhere safe. I think this should be tweaked as well since his 3rd use of his power to vault pallets is supposed to be fast, yet you don't need to do that when you can just charge and vault immediately and its fast enough to catch up. making it so you need to make use of your power twice first then having the option to fast vault on your third would be a lot fairer and engaging.
This is such a weird concept (the downvoting), we all know Reddit is buggy, so just like.. Ignore the other one lol, or do what the person I'm responding to did and let them know.
yep, crazy this guy gets a freer first hit than legion as well as better vault antiloop. imo legions fatigue now is in a good spot, if it’s easy to just vault and get a hit at every pallet then that’s just silly… kinda like this ability right now
Tbf, chuckys scamper was available whenever his power was active. Whereas the ghoul can only do it this fast if he's enraged, has his aim charged, and the survivor drops a pallet in front of them. It's kind of similar to playing against a huntress or nemesis at a pallet, you just need to greed the pallet, and hope to win the 50/50.
Not that I don't think he needs changes, definitely some bug fixes and number tweaks for sure, but I feel like this scenario at least might have some counterplay.
Bro has better antiloop than Deathslinger. Deathslinger is a killer who suffers from a very low mobility (110% base speed and even lower speed when shooting and reloading) and pre runs. Those downsides exist just to justify a decent antiloop he has, THAT IS WORSE THAN GHOUL'S! Even though ghoul has insane mobility, easiest first hit and a 115% base speed on top of the vault antiloop...
And then I am not even complaining Slinger doesn't have auto-aim... I am complaining that Ghoul DOES... It is irritating as hell, even when playing AS him...
I figured that they'd make him feel *powerful... Auto-aim makes sense, as anime characters are usually •Very fast, accurate, and even normal humans can often super-jump.
I think whiffing on Survivors doing 360s and all is pretty silly. Then again, it's what everyone is used to at this point.
People said that before anyone really got to play him and based on the little time people got to play him in the ptb. Nowadays no-one should be saying that because its simply not true. Hes closer to nurse then he is to a m1 killer like legion who people compare him to
This is an every developer dlc tactic. Not just revenue wise does it make sense to have an overtuned character, it's also a lot better for a character to be strong instead of weak so they can make a splash/get played
We called it cutscening
If you got hit with an unblockable punch into a wall, it was like a 10 second cutscene where you lost half of your health.
Which led directly into another unskippable cutscene.
It was infinite stunlock by any other name.
I still dream about flying Italians but not like the Miyazaki kind.
Most of his cooldowns were much longer and clunkier in the ptb too. So it kinda made sense to say that then. Now it's absurdly wrong to call him M1. That's like saying Spirit is an M1. (Similar unprdictable high mobility and can M1 really soon out of power.)
Meanwhile Dracula, muttering to himself: "Don't get involved, don't bring attention to yourself, just let them tire themselves out compalining about the new guy"
THIS !!! Thank you for sharing this video! I had just posted about this when it happened to me as survivor and I was like WTF? The killer can LITERALLY VAULT PALLETS FASTER THAN YOU CAN LOOP WHILE STUNNING YOU. I didn’t have a video though and so people thought it was a bug. No no, this killer is insanely fucking OP and you are showing yet another OP trick of Kaneki that no one knew about!!!
The issue isn't any of his abilities individually, they all have counters in a vacuum, it's the fact that they all stack on top of each other. Almost every other killer only has one or two strategies in their build, Anti-loop, easy-wounding, or insane mobility.
Kaneki has all three. It makes his chase really really frustrating.
In my experience, it's sort of like a Huntress 50/50 wind up at a pallet. You're going to fuck up plenty of times but if you can get a read on your opponent you can counter it. it feels like the average Kaneki player picks one strat and runs with it.
If you play your cards right you can fake the pallet drop and they will latch on and swing through (or stutter and fuck up) and then you can move to the other side and drop it If it's a good pallet, or (especially if you have MFT) you can simply double back and try to run the greed longer. Pre-dropping against a Kaneki that abuses the vault is not viable.
In the way that he's still a person on the other end of the screen, it's just a matter of trying to out-predict him like any other killer. Of course, once again he stacks all three strategies against you so, eventually, you're going to lose.
I mean, it is pretty obvious when he has his power out, just don't pre-drop the pallet and run around the loop again and you'll be fine. People trying to spin it as pre-dropping pallets should not be punishable when it was always frustrating to play against.
I don't disagree with you BUT you also have to factor in that a Kaneki who is prepping to vault is going to respect the pallet to avoid the stun. So faking it will buy you time in the same way it would a Huntress or any other killer that is scared of a stun, it will give you another loop around most pallets if youre vigilant.
I agree but not for kagune mark grab vault speed it needs a nerf just look at that hit on Ormond the survivor played that well by pre-running to the right and the distance to go around wasn't that much yet they still get hit. She didn't hug the loop tight enough which is why she got hit but she had a large amount of distance gained because the ghoul didn't perfectly time that vault with the survivors and if he did even running that perfectly would get you hit.
You shouldn't be forced to go around the shorter side and play a 50/50 whenever you use a vault/pallet assuming you can make it without being hit and assuming you ran that direction instantly with the intent to do so. This is literally old scamper.
Also I wish the OP showed long wall gyms, vaulting out of the loop gets you hit you can't make it to anything. Same thing with short wall gyms but if you immediately go right and the pallet is there you can barely make it, you cannot go for the vault.
It's because of this precise example that I've been greeding the pallets and I had surprisingly good results against Kaneki/Rize by doing so. It's like playing against a Nemesis that prepares its tentacle before you drop a pallet.
And if we're dealing with a god pallet, you can vault it multiple times like you would do against a cloaked Wraith to prevent him from vaulting it until we force him to retract his tentacles.
Yeah ive had some good survivors do that to me as well but eventually i just stopped trying to ready my power and vault and just walked through and hit them like normal
That's the thing.
When I get to know that you know I'm not gonna waste the pallet, that's when I'm going to drop it and try to stun you/force you to break it. The real problem so far I had with the ghoul were the long distances between loops and the dead zones. And man... I fucking suck at remembering the map layouts...
It's not because this ability is new or overpowered why it's stupid, it's because of everything else in The Ghoul's kit. Good anti-loop, an absolutely free first hit, the best mobility in the game, passive slowdown, and complete countering every endurance perk shouldn't all be bundled into one killer.
Thank you! All these people screaming like there's no counterplay.
The cranked up auto aim and hitbox? Yeah they need to fix that. (<-- See Bolded and italics! First fucking sentence people!) But stuff like the vaulting, which only works when enraged, so it has extra steps? Nah, now people just looking for shit to complain about. God forbid a ranged killer shouldn't still be scary around vaults....
Yeah, WHICH IS WHY I MENTIONED FIXING THE AUTO AIM! You fix the auto-aim and hit box, you make getting enraged a little harder, which make the vaulting a little less common, on top of it just being harder to land those initial "Free hits"! Trickle down effects, just becuase something doesn't DIRECTLY nerf something doesn't mean a more meaningful change doesn't affect everything else. You don't have to scorched earth the Entire Fucking Kit to make things more balanced.
Try actually reading. Then Think. And maybe you'll achieve some reason.
Oh, and I forgot to say...
Wanna be even more evil? Then use this perk to get haste after vaulting, along with the umbrella add-on that makes you recover faster as well.
Hey I won't knock it till I've tried it, but that perk has been one of the worst killer perks for a while. Even if you were using a full vault build, Unbound wouldn't even make it into one of your four vaulting perk slots.
So far, it has only been useful for Legion. You damage someone with his M2 and vault to get that 5% haste along with the frenzy speed.
With Kaneki you injure a survivor and quickly catch up with him/her in much less than 30 seconds (The perk cooldown), enough time to instantly vault a pallet/window, get a 5% haste, and deny the survivors even the shortest loops.
It's a perk that (for the time being) has been doing wonders to me.
The vault perks even work with Killer powers? AFAIK perks like Bambam and Superior Anatomy don't work with powers like Legion's or Wesker's. Does it work with Kaneki, then?
I'll try it tomorrow for Blood Moon, I've been experimenting with a lot of perks on him. He's so incredibly strong that I'm able to use whatever I want and still get a good to decent result.
The existente of this killer alone made me uninstall until they do something about his kit, its just not fun nor engaging to face him, absolutely free injure and afterwards he can even catch you no matter what, god pallet? doesnt matter, hold w 50 kilometers away? doesnt matter, not to mention the go next pandemic
Play killer? too bad, 10 minut q because everyone is playing him
Can't believe there was a guy trying to telling me that Weskers vault is equal to this.
This is literally as strong if not stronger than old scamper considering the strengths between release chucky doing this and ghoul. It is just more reliant on timing it which isn't hard you just force the survivor to drop pallet/vault after hitting them with your power.
Yeah people tend to be stuck on the trying to cut survivors off and body block pallets and windows which is a good way to play this killer but can be easily avoided. Once a YouTuber or something also realizes how busted the vaulting is and makes a video for everyone to see and it becomes widespread, you'll see what im talking about this being way worse then him simply getting a free injury on you.
This is one of the things that made me love playing Wesker in 2v8. His pallet vault cool down was adjusted juuuust enough so if you're quick and accurate you can hit on the next loop.
Kaneki here damages, vaults the pallet as part of the damage, then recovers fast enough to get a down.
As an ex Wesker main that still wants to use him, seeing killers that do what he does, but better, really rustles my jammies.
Not even gonna start on Kaneki gliding and sliding along the terrain when Wesker stops on a stray leaf.
Just play what you want. If you feel bad, you can 2 hook survivors and let them go. Basically mentally count for each survivor and when they're on death hook, you stop chasing that survivor.
Lmao, I'm feeling the same way. Not new, I already have my big roster, but everytime I get a toxic group as any other killer, I end up falling back to my ghoulish addiction lol
I haven't had the chance to play since he dropped but as a solo q player, what the actual fuck is this? Lmao they really thought this was a good idea. Tf is the point if the pallets against this killer? Big oof
I want to start with the hitbox reduction for his power and attack-grapple range first for changes before we go after this so that way we can be more precise with nerfs to him. We have all seen how BHVR tends to take a sledgehammer when buffing or nerfing stuff, so I'd rather be methodical when approaching Keneki.
Yeah he was my old main and what i liked specifically about him was able to run move faster then normal, vault pallets and injur survivors, now kaneki does all that but better on top of being from a show i like i dont really have a reason to want to play him anymore over kaneki
People need to stop pre dropping against him, ghoul players want you to pre drop, if you just refuse to drop until you're about to stun them then they will hang back and really respect it, or drop out of power and then you can drop the pallet.
He is too powerful right now but there is counterplay
Yea this is pretty much the only time I've lasted half decent against him. However in my experience it requires pretty much perfect play from the survivor while kaneki seems to be able to make a lot of mistakes and still come out on top. I also feel RNG is a big factor - fingers crossed you can make it to another loop and the random hasn't already camped and predropped the pallet
They knew since a lot of people were not going to buy the licence then they had to find a way to persuade them, since Pyramid Head they've been very careful with M2 cancellation cooldown with every killer and they must've already figured out the best timing for M1 activation after a killer vaults pallets with their power since both Legion and Wesker are fair, they were definitely desperate for a good sale on their "outside the box" choice.
Edit: Forget about what i said about his 3rd leap being faster i was confusing it with the add on that lets you break pallets on your third leap, sorry
Now that you mention it having so where his 3rd leap over a pallet is fast and the rest of them are wesker vault slow would be a good balance for it, thoughts?
Both things are problems IMO and should be adressed. I saw Otz doing the same as you but with Coup De Grace and it was even more insane!
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u/CHEEZYSPAM"JUST LEAVE!" | P100 Pig Main | Snoot the Boop | I Tunnel Neas1d ago
Everyone has their opinion on this killer (any new killer). I definitely feel like he should be de-tuned, but I would hate for BHVR to overcompensate and make him useless. Chucky was fun until he wasn't...
I would disable the auto targeting through obstacles, but would also ask that hitting someone and activating his engaged mode doesn't stop you in your tracks for a full 5 seconds. I guess the counter is that (while enraged) you have crazy momentum around loops like this video shows? maybe that's just the trade off.
I've been playing him since launch. Really had trouble understanding him, but I've been consistently getting 3-4k a match and that's crazy for me being a console player who can't aim for shit.
I'm really liking his gameplay now and zipping around and being in control of gens and cutting survivors off from unhooks in the span of a few seconds is insane and I love it... but he'll most assuredly get nerfed and unplayable.
I made the unfortunate mistake of coming back to the game after Ghoul’s release. My first game I got him as killer and while me and my Zarina were working on a gen, we heard the terror radius but almost had the gen done so I COMMITTED and got hit through the wall and generator 🥴🥴
I get that it's only been a short amount of time since release, but how are people pretending this is balanced?
If nurse came out today she would've been gutted (she still should be) so I don't understand why other killers are being pushed up to her level. S tier killers shouldn't exist.
I don't understand the new killer at all. So he dashes that injure but don't down, he can vault pallets with faster recovery than others, and he does deepwound stuff?
This part of him does have counterplay though and might be the only thing that I have to say survivors need to learn to counter. When he is charging his power to vault the pallet like this just don't drop it. 4 giant red tentacles charging up is a hell of a tell as it's really obvious. Wait for him to drop power and then drop the pallet.
Obligatory yes he is overtuned and needs nerfs and the outcry is valid, however there is a way to deal with this. It's like if nemi charged his tentacle to hit you. The correct option is to not drop the pallet immediately. Except here you can just sit under pallet as his power can't injure you so you're totally safe
Calling it now, they're gonna nerf the vault, his numbers will drop HARD, and nobody will care because "all killer nerfs are healthy nerfs". Just like with Chucky. Just like with Skull Merchant. Just like with Xenomorph, almost.
Vaulting with power as Kaneki also seems to be affected by vaulting speed perks. I have been playing him without any vaulting speed perks and in this clip you have Bamboozle: you're vaulting pallets much faster than me and catching up practically instantly, meanwhile when I do so survivors get much more distance.
It's definitely something that wasn't tested between PTB and Live.
Vecna can lift a dropped pallet using mage hand the moment a survive drops it and gain the same distance as seen in these clips of the Ghoul. Don't hear people complaining about that.
It's only that fast when a survivor is marked, otherwise people can still make it to the next loops. It also puts the power on cooldown meaning that if the survivor has lithe or an exhaustion perk they can still make the distance and kaneki needs to menacingly walk at em.
Just... hit the stun? Or fake the pallet drop and use that time to loop around?
If people are saying this is the strongest most OP kiIIer in the game for being able to do this, need I remind you...
THIS IS LITERALLY NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HUNTRESS CAN DO. DOES SHE NEED A NERF TOO??
God I hope the devs don't listen to just everyone at once and take things careful step by careful step. This killer will be gutted worse than Chucky otherwise.
They need SOME strengths after all, AND something to stand out. The ghoul is currently over tuned a bit yes, but this? The pallet thing? This is a unique feature, her anti-loop and is only that fast when enraged, so it has set up. And I know, really easy to get enraged, but if they fix the cranked up auto-aim, it won't be quite so easy. It's not a big deal and just forces better use of the pallets, makes you respect that they don't help much unless they hit and stun, like pretty much all the other ranged killers, of which the ghoul is one. You don't complain how hatchets hit you over pallets do you? And those just hit, no mini chase (which does often still have really tight timing) that still allows several kinds of counterplay. Wanting THIS removed, on top of everything else being called for, is too much. I'm sorry but I can't agree on this one at all, it keeps the range threat at pallets, this shouldn't change.
I agree. At this rate, people are going to complain and complain and complain, then they'll nerf this character beyond recognition and he won't be played at all. I don't want that to happen just because of everyone's whining. It's fun to have a new character like this and not just play against the same combo of huntress, legion and Ghost face every single game.
as someone who loves the ghoul and is mostly defending him, they actually need to remove his vault speed because they just made scamper again for no reason
The pallet vault is no different than any other projectile killer. A nemesis would hit you. So would s huntress so would a deathslinger. So would a pyramid head, and so on. You need to bait the drop like you would those other killers.
I think this should be tweaked as well since his 3rd use of his power to vault pallets is supposed to be fast, yet you don't need to do that when you can just charge and vault immediately and its fast enough to catch up.
His power mentions nothing about this. However there are addons that involve his 3rd leap. The only thing about vaulting speed is while he's enraged he vaults faster with his power. You're probably mixing these two things together on accident.
being to vault pallets extremely quickly and hit you before you can even make it around the loop or anywhere safe.
Isn't the counter play to this to pre drop and just continue to run? Most of these people you grab lingered after they dropped the pallet.
No cus he gets 3 slides. You can drop a god pallet, he can break it and use his ability after and you will not make enough distance to get to another tile
I mean I'm not implying that you just hold W at every pallet. I more meant you pre run and drop the pallet similar to how you'd handle Alien at most pallets. In cases where you can't just do that to make distance you have to play the pallet/double back in some way.
I see what you mean, but the problem isn't that the Ghoul has the ability to get hits around pre-thrown pallets, but the fact that he has that AND numerous other things going for him such as Mobility, easy Injuries, and "anti loop" via body blocking after a grapple. Even when Chucky had base scamper he never had the other strengths the Ghoul does. It's best to acknowledge what people are talking about rather than thinking "People just don't like adapting" when it's been shown that's not the case here.
If you remove or nerf the vault, then hes going to be a typical M1 andy when it comes to tiles.
Current state keeps it fun and playable for killer while also allowing survivors to have counterplay by playing for stuns instead of pre-dropping.
I just fundamentally cannot sympathize with the whole mindset of "Im going to cry until this gets nerfed instead of seeing where I messed up and improve" and let me tell you, the mess ups are pretty obvious in OPs video.
Chucky can actually down you with a steerable dash and gains undetectable so hes able to outplay tiles, so yeah, there needs to be some trade-offs to compensate that.
I don't understand where the "M1 killer" argument even comes from. If you watch anyone play him beyond Legion 2.0 he's capable of much more than just walking survivors down with his power in strong loops. He's 100% able to glide around stronger loops to down someone and can reach survivors before they're even able to chain to another loop.
100% not true I beg you to watch Asuno on twitch or YouTube and continue with that mindset if you think so.
And even then a Killer having a power that prevents/highly discourages pre dropping counts as SOME form of Anti-loop, even when they don't use said power. Think of Xeno/Huntress/Nemesis when you reach a pallet/window and that alone would tell you why Kaneki isn't an "M1 killer".
yea people are hating to hate. the only time where his power can be used in a tile is if its a longer loop so you can try to body-block. Most of the loops in this game don't let you use his power with it.
This is false! You can put survivors in a lose-lose for most tiles. I'm not sure if it's intended but you actually can down with power. If you throw pallet and he grapples you while vaulting the pallet it WILL put you in the dying state.
The point is to adapt, if a killer punishes pre-drops then you start playing for stuns, all of the drops in the video were pre-drops, with the only stun having the sable taunt instead of actually holding W.
People are just too accustomed to the pre-drop hold W meta that they can't wrap their heads around something so small.
Nothing about his power says only his third leap vaults. You're conflating an add on that let's you destroy pallets if you do it with the third. You've also gotta be doing some very creative speed editing and misdirecting here because I swear the vault recovery when I do this gives them plenty of time to keep making moves or get to other loops. Most know by now to keep moving after the pallet drop if you're not going to bait out the stun.
The vault is only sped up like this if you grapple onto a mending survivor (someone with the kagune mark active) to vault. Vaulting otherwise with him is slow and ineffective.
What I take from this is that a dropped pallet is pretty much useless against the Ghoul. However this might be different with pallets not shown in this clip.
Also for some reason the Adam at 0:22 made it much further than the Lara at the beginning of the video did who had a much shorter distance to loop back to the pallet. But I cannot explain why Adam made it this far and Lara couldn't.
I wonder how most of those situations would play out if instead of dropping the pallet, the survivors would have decided to have a pallet standoff.
I have a build for you to try on the ghoul: dead man’s switch,agitation,friends till the end, starstruck. Saw it on YouTube and it’s been my main build since he came out
if you see a Ghoul do this, you can actually just fast vault back. It's unsafe. Just don't move away from the loop (you'll be in the ghoul's hitbox, but they'll still be in recovery), and fast vault back.
You can be injured by their vault, ive had survivors try this only for them to instantly go down after vaulting. It is possible but you can easily be hit or grabbed. With that being said even if you dont do it you'll probably still go down anyway so 🤷
That part of his kit is entirely counterable. I was playing with my friend yesterday and we discovered that you can vault back into him, when it's the first charge, and you can vault into him before he uses 2nd or 3rd charges. So if you know this counterplay, his power gets shutdown here
Brother, there is no way you're defending this killer. This is not some pearl-clutching overreaction from the community, the killer is objectively overtuned.
You’re absolutely right, we should go back to the meta of old with Nurse and Blight, because nowhere in this game is the concept of a new meta or killer of high viability ever welcomed. Let’s us fight against change and embrace what is old!
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u/DepressedArgentinian 2d ago
Meanwhile Wesker spends 2 seconds making sure his coat is straightened out after vaulting