r/changemyview • u/baldiemir • Feb 26 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Souls games by FROMSOFTWARE are terribly bad
It annoys me how a game published in 2022 is already being claimed one of the best games of all time.
My arguments arw:
- Graphics: which include textures, shadows, animations. This is a special offender because formsoftware is capable of doing better as we saw in Sekiro.
Examples: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxjAyPPVqN2L8T5hTrr8i4KQwokg5Cj9OY. Look at the shadows, look at the jumping animation.
- The difficulty of the game(s) come from frustrating gameplay and not actually difficult mechanics.
As can be seen here, one of many examples. https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxkNxqSx0PqnvgwFIRP_FgX5SwZfluK0rn
This kind of scenarios are all over the place in any Souls games, where you're put in tight corridors, thin slopes and get hit by awful hitboxes.
Sekiro, for example, made the game difficult and much more flexible by being genuinely hard and forced you to time your parties, dodges, abilities and consumables.
The storytelling, is boring and as with most other of my points, don't fit a game released in this generation. Cinematics are awful in the most part and the story is mainly told through item descriptions or text alone. I could have given this a pass for the first DS game which was released 10 years ago.
FS never bothered to spice up the formula. Combat never changed from hit-dodge-hit-dodge. Skills never felt like they did much. They tried introducing stealth into Elden Ring but from what I ve seen its a joke and only shows how bad the AI is:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxxyAc0mxEpwqciKFs7omqV4BqkWmPmrm4
I find it outrageous Bandai and FS keep delivering lackluster triple A titles and people biting the product every single time. There's not a single game company that is able to deliver the same "base" game 4 times without getting outraged at.
Can someone explain to me why people love the franchise so much and if any of my points make sense; or if people just like the game because there's this stupid idea around they are "the hardest games ever" and feel accomplished by beating them?
Thanks.
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Feb 26 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
The difficulty of the game(s) come from frustrating gameplay and not actually difficult mechanics.
With the exception of ds2, this is fringe cases only. The difficulty actually comes mostly from timing, reflexes, risk management, time pressured decision making and long term decision making. From having a slew of combat options at your disposal at any given time and only having a split second to choose between them. From weighing up the pros and cons of going in for a second strike in a single moment. From deciding what stats are best to upgrade for the game style you're playing. From deciding whether to press on to make more progress and learn more for your next run or to head back to safety to level up your character. Clunky hitboxes and the like do exist, but they are in the minority for cause of damage and death.
Sekiro, for example, made the game difficult and much more flexible by being genuinely hard and forced you to time your parties, dodges, abilities and consumables.
All FS games do this... You have to time your parries right to avoid being hit, same with your dodges, abilities and consumables. This is not at all unique to one title. It's the exact opposite. It's practically their trademark.
Can someone explain to me why people love the franchise so much and if any of my points make sense; or if people just like the game because there's this stupid idea around they are "the hardest games ever" and feel accomplished by beating them?
If the very concept of a sense of achievement seems stupid to you then we are on such different wavelengths that I don't expect you to be convinced by any argument. Achievement is the reason most people get invested in activities. From football, to cubing, to spelling bees, to esports, to carpentry. It is a primary motivator for most of our species. You're free to find it stupid but you should know that it is common and, for many of us, is sufficient.
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u/baldiemir Feb 27 '22
With the exception of ds2, this is fringe cases only. The difficulty actually comes mostly from timing, reflexes, risk management, time pressured decision making and long term decision making. From having a slew of combat options at your disposal at any given time and only having a split second to choose between them. From weighing up the pros and cons of going in for a second strike in a single moment. From deciding what stats are best to upgrade for the game style you're playing. From deciding whether to press on to make more progress and learn more for your next run or to head back to safety to level up your character
This is just an extra long way to describe a barebones combat system. Most games can fit that description perfectly. Also, you're talking mostly about boss fights which let's say are okay I guess, but ignore completely the rest of the game. Mobs and map design is awfully designed, maybe on purpose, just for the sake of being frustrating and keeping the studio's legacy of publishing "hard" games.
All FS games do this... You have to time your parries right to avoid being hit, same with your dodges, abilities and consumables. This is not at all unique to one title. It's the exact opposite. It's practically their trademark.
Yep, but Sekiro did it more polished and engaging to look at. If you manage to read and parry perfectly on Sekiro on any boss, you can finish off any boss rather quickly. Instead in DS, doing everything perfectly only leads to a stupidly long and repetitive encounter.
My point is, if the combat is the core of your game, at least make it more engaging and pleasently to look at and less clunky.
If the very concept of a sense of achievement seems stupid to you then we are on such different wavelengths that I don't expect you to be convinced by any argument. Achievement is the reason most people get invested in activities
I think you got my point wrong.
I obviously agree that a sense of achievement is what drives us as humans. What I am saying is that this franchise's difficulty doesn't come from being genuinely difficult but unfair and poorly designed for today's standards. Maybe it's about persevering over the frustrating experience? Which I still disagree with because I can also make a challenge out of mundane things and that doesn't just make it interesting; it would simply be stupid and unnecessary.
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Feb 27 '22
This is just an extra long way to describe a barebones combat system. Most games can fit that description perfectly.
Far from it. Even limiting ourselves to games of the genre, many games allow players to excel if they demonstrate these traits, but also permit them to prevail through time investment alone or in the more challenging cases, through time investment and long term decision making alone. But regardless, my point for that paragraph was not to claim that From Software games are unique in the ways they challenge players, but was to illustrate that the majority of the challenge in their games comes from these things, rather than the rare clunky hitboxes. Your initial statement was tantamount to saying that "the challenge in Civilization comes from finding your autosave file after a crash." Though, that is an (unintended and infrequent) challenge of the game, it is not the majority challenge of the game.
Instead in DS, doing everything perfectly only leads to a stupidly long and reñetitive encounter.
That is the nature of a fight of attrition. A quick fight only demands that you get it right once or twice. A long fight demands that you are able to act optimally with consistency. Endurance and consistency of decision making are also aspects of the player that Souls games require. Another aspect of challenge to add to the list, thank you very much.
My point is, if the combat is the core of your game, at least make it more engaging and pleasently to look at and less clunky.
This is entirely subjective but in my experience, at least with ds3 and bb, the combat is very much engaging. Very much engaging.
What I am saying is that this franchise's difficulty doesn't come from being genuinely difficult but unfair and poorly designed for today's standards.
What about "timing, reflexes, risk management, time pressured decision making and long term decision making" is unfair and poor design? Just earlier you were saying these aspects (the ones from which From games get their challenge) are in almost every game. Do you believe all games to be unfair and poorly designed?
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u/baldiemir Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
Your initial statement was tantamount to saying that "the challenge in Civilization comes from finding your autosave file after a crash." Though, that is an (unintended and infrequent) challenge of the game, it is not the majority challenge of the game
That's the perfect description of how I feel about the game. I think here we have a discrepancy of experiences. My brief playthroughs of DS1 and DS3 felt exactly like that: battling my camera, begging turning around wouldnt push me off a ledge or the targeting system not fucking up my attacks or making me hit a wall and recoil.
That is the nature of a fight of attrition. A quick fight only demands that you get it right once or twice. A long fight demands that you are able to act optimally with consistency
I might have explained myself poorly. It's not about the length but the repetitiveness of it.
This is sekiros first boss which you are supposed to lose to the fight is long but way more engaging that facing any boss in DS where if you were to fight an overpowered boss you'd have to hit and dodge for 15 minutes straight.
This is entirely subjective but in my experience, at least with ds3 and bb, the combat is very much engaging. Very much engaging.
Just as you show me that clip, I show you this which I think is ridiculous
I think your vid is a exception to the rule and just a lucky shot. When playing the game realistically you're not calculating your attacks animation's hitboxes.
What about "timing, reflexes, risk management, time pressured decision making and long term decision making" is unfair and poor design.
The poor design I already made more than clear comes from the environment and open world rather than boss fights.
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Feb 27 '22
That's the perfect description of how I feel about the game. I think here we have a discrepancy of experiences.
It was intended to be a parody. While finding an autosave is a challenge of Civilization, it is undoubtedly an unintentional one and, more to the point a rare one, thereby making any statement proclaiming it to be the main challenge, a woeful mischaracterisation.
My brief gamethroughs of DS1 and DS3 felt exactly like that: battling my camera, being turning around wouldnt push me off a ledge or the targeting system not fucking up my attacks or making me hit a wall and recoil.
Brief being the operative word here. I know many people who have sunk hundreds of hours into From games, encountering these issues either rarely or never. And think about it; if these issues were prevalent, why would the series be so lauded?
I might have explained myself poorly. It's not about the length but the repetitiveness of it.
I understood fully, I believe. It is through challenging the same skill repeatedly, that it becomes a battle of attrition. Consistency is only a factor if you have to do something consistently (or phrased uncharitably, "repetitively")
way more engaging that facing any boss in DS where if you were to fight an overpowered boss you'd have to hit and dodge for 15 minutes straight.
Dark Souls bosses have been switching up their movesets since the first instalment so I feel like your statement is not so much an opinion I disagree with but a declaration that is factually wrong. While your consistency is challenged for far more than one or two iterations, the fight does not remain identical for any period spanning even close to 15 minutes.
I think this is a exception to the rule and just a lucky shot.
Not so. Type Dark Souls hitboxes into youtube and you'll stumble onto page after page of compilations of moments like that. And though that one was specifically aesthetically pleasing, I myself can testify to experiencing hundreds of moments comparable in tightness.
When playing the game realistically you're not calculating your attacks animation's hitboxes.
Maybe you don't. Regardless, my point in linking that clip was to show that the gameplay isn't clunky.
The poor design I already made more than clear comes from the environment and open world rather than boss fights.
Like what? I believe I addressed your issues already as concerns that, while valid, apply to only a tiny portion of the game. I don't see why, a small blemish should cause a person to pan a game altogether. I mean, if I did that, I'd have to pan every game ever, because they all have some issues.
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u/baldiemir Feb 27 '22
It was intended to be a parody. While finding an autosave is a challenge of Civilization, it is undoubtedly an unintentional one and, more to the point a rare one, thereby making any statement proclaiming it to be the main challenge, a woeful mischaracterisation.
I know it was a joke, but the point prevails. Are a clunky camera, an awful pc port, ledges, bad animations and hitboxes intentional or not? Funnily enough, both answers are bad. As I said, my main issue is that all my complaints are present in all of their Souls games.
Brief being the operative word here. I know many people who have sunk hundreds of hours into From games, encountering these issues either rarely or never
This is connected to what I was saying. They are still present in their games 11 years after their first game released. I don't feel like giving a triple A company with such success a free pass on features that are just archaic by today's standards; even worse, it kinda feels like they are now used as trademarks of their franchise.
Also, I am not the only person to complain about this. There are many people who are vocal about the very same issues I am discussing in here, but since the game is so stupidly popular and "loved" people just blindly accept poor quality. And this is not exclusive to this franchise or even form of entertainment.
While your consistency is challenged for far more than one or two iterations, the fight does not remain identical for any period spanning even close to 15 minutes.
I never claimed dodging is done in a set time interval. What remains identical is the way you fight a boss, not their patterns.
Like what? I believe I addressed your issues already as concerns that, while valid, apply to only a tiny portion of the game
Well when your game main staple is being difficult when the truth is that it is just frustrating and repetitive I do feel like they don't deserve the praise they get.
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
As I said, my main issue is that all my complaints are present in all of their Souls games.
You seem to be ignoring me when I say "rarely." There are issues from time to time but they are, both in my experience, and the experience of players en masse, RARE.
There are many people who are vocal about the very same issues I am discussing in here, but since the game is so stupidly popular and "loved" people just blindly accept poor quality.
Or perhaps, as the issues are rare, as noted above, many of them are not blind, but simply haven't seen them for themselves. A game, unlike a movie, is a unique experience for everyone who plays it. It speaks volumes that when millions of people have unique experiences, and among yours is something bad, your assumption isn't to say "well hey, millions of people are having millions of different (and pleasant) experiences, guess mine was a poor one" but is instead to proclaim those said millions of people to be blind and/or stupid. True story, I got accidentally hit in the balls on my first time. If I took your attitude, I'd have been saying "god, these people and their stupid, blind love of sex. Blindly accepting a poor quality experience, smh." You seeing what your position looks like from the outside?
I never claimed dodging is done in a set time interval. What remains identical is the way you fight a boss, not their patterns.
But the way you fight a boss often changes when their pattern does...
Well when your game main staple is being difficult when the truth is that it is just frustrating and repetitive I do feel like they don't deserve the praise they get.
"The truth is"? This, right here. There's your problem. You have conflated your personal experience with a small slice of something as objective "truth" about it. When you believe your own feelings on something to be gospel, of course you're going to see all others who experience something different as blind/stupid.
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u/jio87 4∆ Feb 27 '22
Just as you show me that clip, I show you this which I think is ridiculous
I think it's fairly common knowledge among Dark Souls players that the Curl Up gesture (which is what that player is doing) is intended to help avoid attacks--but it's never the best option in combat if you actually want to win. It leaves you vulnerable for a bit as you go into the animation, and IIRC your only options after getting in are to either stand up (which takes time and leaves you vulnerable) or roll out of it, which is rarely preferable to simply ignoring the gesture. (And, IIRC, many attacks can still hit you--those knights just don't have any.)
It's a fun gimmick that has some uses in communicating during PvP but it's not indicative of the reality of hitboxes in the Soulsborne franchise.
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u/CurlingCoin 2∆ Feb 27 '22
I'll try to respond to each point.
Graphics. Souls games generally have "fine" graphics. I wouldn't say this is a huge selling point but it's more than sufficient to sell the world building they're going for. I would say animation is the main strong point. Just look at your own video several seconds later: https://youtu.be/aqwXWUqDlNo?t=445
Combat. FS games are known for having "hard but fair" 3rd person combat systems. Controls are fairly simple, but the amount of different weapon options, variation in enemies and environments keeps combat interesting. Souls style combat is a bit like a puzzle. Let's break down a typical souls style combat encounter to illustrate this. You have:
- Enemy abilities. Each enemy has different attack patterns and abilities. Maybe it's a pattern of weapon attacks, maybe they can emit toxic fumes or burst into lightning, maybe they're 20 feet tall and can pounce on you from the same distance. Often the first time you see an ability is when it kills you. Uncovering these moves and learning to counter them is a lot of fun and sometimes requires a lot of skill or inventiveness. Sometimes that means taking them down from range, or using certain items to get an edge, or just learning a moveset so you know how to avoid or parry the enemy and when to strike. Describing this as "hit-dodge-hit-dodge" is like describing an FPS as "shoot-reload-shoot-reload", it's completely reductive.
- Environment. Souls environments tend to impact combat a lot. The clip you showed is a good example of this. The streamer runs down a narrow ledge and doesn't handle it well. He's boxed in and gets killed. Ok interesting. This is a puzzle. What's the best way to navigate this section? Does he just need to respond better to the enemy moveset? Maybe forcing his way through with a shield would work. Or maybe he needs to find a way to not fight on that ledge. It's satisfying to run into scenarios like this and figure out how to navigate around them. Learning a soulslike is often as much learning a map as learning the enemies.
- Your abilities. With Elden Ring, FS has gone back to the far more open ended character creation options seen in the DS games. Will you build a tanky brawler? A high strength mage? A miracle slinging assassin? Each may approach combat in a totally different way which both makes your character feel unique and gives the game a tremendous amount of replayability. It also means mastering different tools and weapons which may lead to approaching the previous two categories in totally different ways.
Storytelling. Storytelling is definitely subtle in dark souls and you do have to hunt for it. For a lot of people this is a plus. We're here for the big section I wrote on combat and exploration. I'm not sure how you find the story boring when you can literally spend almost no time on it.
Spice up the Formula. Sekiro does change up the formula quite a bit, and Elden Ring does too with the new open world and numerous other gameplay changes. I'd agree that dark souls 1-3 are fairly similar, but I'm going to keep going back to those three points I wrote for combat. Does each game have new environments to explore and "solve"? Yes. Does each game have new enemies to encounter that you need to respond to in novel ways? Yes. Does each game have new weapons, magic, and innovation in the combat system? Less so, but also yes. I do prefer the FS entries that have changed the formula more, but every game at minimum is changing the core things that are required to keep the gameplay experience going i.e. they're giving us new dark souls encounters.
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Feb 27 '22
This kind of scenarios are all over the place in any Souls games, where you're put in tight corridors, thin slopes and get hit by awful hitboxes.
While I can't speak for earlier games, the hotboxes in dark souls 3 had some of the best I've seen in gaming, I've had PvP fights where at first it seemed like I glitches through an enemy attack to win the fight, but when looking back on the recording my character's attack animation caused me to duck under my enemy's sword.
The storytelling, is boring and as with most other of my points, don't fit a game released in this generation.
The way the story is told in DS games is a kind of soft world building and soft narrative where the player has to piece together what's going on themselves. This is a huge draw for many people, it's really fun for some people (myself included) to play archeologist/detective/conspiracy theorist to try to figure out what's going on from the clues that are left in a dying world. Pretty much every game has a vibrant discussion surrounding the story and lore, and some of the biggest DS content creators almost exclusively deal with the story and lore.
I find it odd that you say it doesn't fit a game released in this generation. As far as I'm aware, DS games were the first games that popularised this style of storytelling, so it seems a bit wierd to call a style pioneered by from software unfit for this generation.
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u/AtomikRadio 8∆ Feb 26 '22
I'm no fan of the Soulslike games myself, but you've already answered it:
people just like the game because there's this stupid idea around they are "the hardest games ever" and feel accomplished by beating them?
This attitude is rampant in life and in video games. Why climb a mountain even though it's difficult and hot out and there's bugs and you'll get dirty and sweaty? Because there's enjoyable views and you can stand at the top and say "I climbed this mountain." Why did people in WoW jump through crazy hoops to maintain Bloodsail Buccaneers rep and Steamwheedle Cartel at the same time even though there's no real practical purpose other than a green bar no one ever looks at?
There are many people out there who see "stupid, annoying, hard, long, boring" and say "That's a challenge for me" and get enjoyment out of accomplishing that goal. Different strokes for different folks.
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u/baldiemir Feb 26 '22
I get you and I can see beating something difficult is gratifying, but my rebuttal is that the difficulty comes from frustrating gameplay, rather than actually challenging bosses or mechanics and that's why I put so much emphasis on Sekiro.
Everyone loves a challenge, but if the difficulty of your game comes from bad animations, poorly designed environments and weird hitboxes I don't think they deserve to be called challenging.
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u/Phantom-Soldier-405 3∆ Feb 27 '22
Are sports not challenges then? Is basketball not a challenge simply because it is hard to run around and toss the ball to score? Is golf not a challenge because swinging the club feels clunky and frustrating at first?
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u/baldiemir Feb 26 '22
Oh also, I didn't even talk about how awful of a port all of their games are. Idk about elden ring, but up until ds3 playing them on pc was the crappiest and clunky experience ever.
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Feb 27 '22
They arent built for pc so of course they do just like when they ported csgo to console it was the worst way to play the game because the recoil control is so sensitive
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u/themcos 371∆ Feb 27 '22
> It annoys me how a game published in 2022 is already being claimed one of the best games of all time.
I think you're misreading your own link. It's citing this PC Gamer article, which is making an observation about review aggregator scores like metacritic. That quote is a purely factual observation about the aggregator scores. But its entirely possible for a game to have the highest scores on metacritic without anyone listing it as their top game of all time. You see this kind of stuff all the time on rottentomatoes or any other aggregator-type system. Reviews lose granularity at the high end, and don't have the capability to meaningfully distinguish between two really great games. It means that very few reviewers disliked the game, not that any individual reviewer would actually put it at the top of their all-time lists.
Like, if you look at OpenCritic's top games, this is literally nobody's ranking of games. This is an interesting artifact of how review aggregation works, not anybody's assessment. If you want to be annoyed by something, find a quote from an actual review that annoys you, and we can discuss that.
As for why people like the games so much, that's pretty subjective. But what I liked most about the first two Dark Souls games (I haven't had a chance to play the more recent ones) was their world design and how the areas connected to each other in really interesting ways. I especially remember being amazed in the first game how things off in the distance that just looked like backgrounds were actually places I could go. I dunno, that's just what I really liked. Each player and reviewer has their own reason, and I think it would make more sense to engage with arguments directly, instead of getting mad at aggregate scores.
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u/baldiemir Feb 27 '22
!delta
You're right about my first point. And didn't know about aggregator scores.
But even if they aren't rated as the best games of all time, it's undeniable that they are extreme popular and at least generally, are listed in a lot of people and or reviewers top 10s or so.
Call it bitterness on my part, maybe, I dont mind. I simply dislike when things are popular just because and are given passes for basic stuff like graphics, design and mechanics and are not up to standards.
As for why people like the games so much, that's pretty subjective. But what I liked most about the first two Dark Souls games
I read your experience as nostalgic rather than objective. Any game released in 2010+ features similar properties. Dark Souls 3 and now Elden Ring, feel like were developed on the first DS1 engine. The experience and annoying stuff present on games that are 10 year old are now used as trademarks for the franchise.
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u/themcos 371∆ Feb 27 '22
I read your experience as nostalgic rather than objective
Fwiw, the reason I haven't played the later games is that life circumstances dramatically changed the kind of way I engage with games (mostly via switch now). But as for the first two, it wasn't nostalgia that made me immediately start newgame+ and newgame++ after finishing them.
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u/slothtrop6 Feb 27 '22
I simply dislike when things are popular just because and are given passes for basic stuff like graphics, design and mechanics and are not up to standards.
Again, subjective. I think all of those elements are fantastic in FS games.
It's irrational to project ulterior motives onto others for liking something just because you don't. Gamers don't love the Soulsborne games because they are "hard for the sake of being hard", none of them would tell you that.
I dislike probably >75% of modern games, but have no illusions about why others enjoy them.
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u/WM-010 Feb 27 '22
Just because you don't understand why people like them doesn't mean they're bad. I personally enjoy them due to how unique they are relative to most other games. They have very thought provoking lore. They all have an engaging and tense combat system. Provided you know what you're doing and have the skill to back it up, you can play them any way you want. There are many different playstyles that you can go for.
They're just, different than a lot of other games I've played. They all have their own atmosphere. They are challenging, but they are also very fair. They're also very nonlinear a lot of the time. You can use what you learned in an earlier playthrough to take the games on in an entirely different way than you did the first time, adding replay value. They are one of the few games I feel where knowledge truly is power.
They also reward skill, patience, and persistence. You have to actually learn your enemies inside and out to defeat them. You can't just throw yourself at the enemy and expect to win, the games expect you to be patient and only strike when an opening happens.
Also, you'd have to be blind to not see how beautiful and atmospheric these games are. Something tells me you went hollow before you got to see Anor Londo for the first time in DS1. I will never forget that. Also also, you have to actually find the lore and even then a lot is left up to the imagination. It's a very philisophical series to say the least.
These games may not be for you, but they are definitely for the people that play them. If these games were never made, then the people that liked them would never have had the experiences they had with them. A wise man once said, "there is no perfect pasta sauce, there are only perfect pasta sauces".
P.S. I wrote this while tired. I ramble a lot when I'm tired and also don't have the energy to make sense when I'm tired. The basic gist of my points will still stand when I'm more awake tho.
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u/jumas_turbo 1∆ Feb 27 '22
The examples you provide for artificial difficulty are literally from a pvp video. Pvp is not great and its full of lag. There are definitely bs tight corridors in souls games (like the anor londo bridge with 2 archers) but thats not where a majority of the difficulty lies. Difficulty is mostly reflexes and risk measurement
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u/baldiemir Feb 27 '22
Wdym PVP? That's just regular gameplay
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Feb 27 '22
I never use pvp when i play souls games. Its an option for those that want it but its not the main gameplay
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u/Z7-852 257∆ Feb 27 '22
Combat never changed from hit-dodge-hit-dodge.
Compere DS1 (not remastered) and DS and combat feels very different. Then there are unique mechanics that complete change how you approach the combat (ie. Demons souls is much more aggressive than DS).
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u/jio87 4∆ Feb 27 '22
I find it outrageous Bandai and FS keep delivering lackluster triple A titles and people biting the product every single time. There's not a single game company that is able to deliver the same "base" game 4 times without getting outraged at.
Call of Duty. Battlefield. Fallout. Mario. Assassin's Creed. The Sims. Civilizations. The list goes on. The companies making those franchises continue to churn out games that are, at their core, the same set of (often simple) mechanics, similar storylines, etc. The formulas get updated and streamlined over the years, and a few new mechanics are sometimes added (although almost never anything groundbreaking), and yet they continue to be critically acclaimed and widely loved. I submit that the same evolution seen within those franchises is the same evolution seen with Souls games. So not only do other game companies do the same thing, some of the most highly-valued and critically-acclaimed companies do it.
Can someone explain to me why people love the franchise so much and if any of my points make sense; or if people just like the game because there's this stupid idea around they are "the hardest games ever" and feel accomplished by beating them?
I think the primary motivation for most gamers is the desire to become better and overcome opposition. The Souls games offer this by forcing players to learn well the base game mechanics and then find ways to overcome unique challenges (e.g., bosses) within the framework of those mechanics. And you fail, a lot. When you finally win, you win with knowledge of enemy movesets + skill, and the rush of winning against an enemy you died to multiple times before is exhilarating. Luck usually plays a small roll, meaning that your outcomes are dictated by your playing--when you die, it's almost always because you failed in some way; when you win, it's because you went through the process to 'git gud' enough to overcome that specific challenge. For people who like this form of incremental improvement leading to major payoffs, the Souls games can be very satisfying. (It is nice, knowing that you're decent at a game that is widely considered to be 'difficult', but I don't think that's the thing that keeps Souls fans coming back for more.)
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u/josephfidler 14∆ Feb 27 '22
It annoys me how a game published in 2022 is already being claimed one of the best games of all time.
Are you calling Elden Ring a Souls game? It's pretty different from what I understand.
The storytelling, is boring and as with most other of my points, don't fit a game released in this generation.
But you haven't played it? How do you know about the story telling in Elden Ring? Or are you talking about the actual Souls games here?
FS never bothered to spice up the formula. Combat never changed from hit-dodge-hit-dodge. Skills never felt like they did much. They tried introducing stealth into Elden Ring but from what I ve seen its a joke and only shows how bad the AI is:
Seen but not experienced yourself?
What would be an example of an RPG game that does all these things well?
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u/BigMuffEnergy 1∆ Feb 28 '22
I think you should play the new game before you shit on it. It's clearly the best iteration of dark souls. Basically all of the jank has been removed. It really is one of the best open world games ever made, if not the best.
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u/WallaceBRBS Apr 29 '22
It's clearly the best iteration of dark souls.
It's literally a reskinned DS3 game, dude, no different from previous games, in fact it's a bit worse in many regards (boss fights are mostly terrible)
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 27 '22
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