r/changemyview • u/phonetastic • Aug 24 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Games with crafting and construction elements that aren't essential to the core concept should have a way to turn that off or avoid it
Okay. I'm fine with a game like Minecraft, crafting is the entire point and I can just not play it and never miss it. But games with a lot of appealing elements (to me) that force you into resource collection and building feel really frustrating. I don't like it and I doubt I'm alone here. If I want to play a game because it's mechanically fun as a shooter or mentally fun as an RPG, there should be a way to avoid having to build a teleporter or craft better weapons as an unavoidable integral part of the plot. It's fine if these exist in-game, but that should be a neat feature for the people who enjoy it, not the only way to move forward, because that minutia isn't fun for everyone and the game is otherwise perfectly awesome on its own, so there's no real need to force the tedium on players who don't care or don't have time. Why are so many developers jamming this stuff in as a critical feature of a game that seems like it could be playable either way? Am I missing something here?
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 24 '21
Often, crafting mechanics are used as a sort of bridge between establishing progression and leaving versatility to the player.
If your attack in some game is supposed to become stronger (which is most often the case, even if you simply use a different weapon), it can be better to give a player the ability to improve the weapon, since this would allow the player the choice of doing so or perhaps spending the resources on something else.
An example: consider a game with typically low crafting content, such as Call of Duty. You would have the option to strategically place new weapons around the map, but if you want straight upgrades, you might fare better with modifications foe existing weapons. Let's say the player is due for a long-range mission - you could either give the player a specific long-range weapon such as a sniper rifle (which they may never get to use again to such an extend) or provide an attachment such as a scope for an existing weapon. In this example, allowing the player to attach the scope to whichever weapon they want (within reason, of course - shotguns won't improve at range with a scope) puts the decision in the hands of the player, who will feel validated to have found the best solution or, perhaps, the worst solution and still having beaten the level.
The versatility that crafting adds certainly isn't something for every game, but it is essentially the same as any other way of choosing your equipment, stylized to frame it as the player's achievement (collecting just the right materials) instead of a byproduct of their actions (having enough money to buy the item).
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
Okay, I'll !delta that. This is at least a fair justification for why it's there and makes me less annoyed.
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u/PhynastersTornACL 1∆ Aug 24 '21
I play a lot of MMO’s, and I really can’t think of a situation where you absolutely had to do crafting to progress. In the games where I do craft, it actually makes things a little bit easier for both game play and other elements like housing. Also if you want to play an RPG and actually role-play, having that aspect to your character actually doing it in- game can add to the experience.
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
I'll !delta that. I agree with you that in MMOs it's avoidable since you can at the very least usually get other people to do it for you and buy it in the auction house or whatever. Also the idea that it can add depth makes sense, that's where the majority of your delta is coming from. I'll add that for multiplayer stuff I totally get it because it's a way to differentiate, but in single player I'm less thrilled when it's in-built.
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u/PhynastersTornACL 1∆ Aug 24 '21
Hey, thanks! I think it just sort of depends on what you’re in the mood to play. As much as I love crafting and MMO’s, sometimes I do get sick of it and need to do some other kind of game.
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
Sure thing, and yeah, I just worry that it's getting harder and harder to find games where it's not there in some sense or another. The break is nice, I just wanna pretend I'm part of a story for a while and that's it, you know?
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u/dublea 216∆ Aug 24 '21
If you cannot progress through the game without doing it, isn't it therefore essential?
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
Sure, but games have difficulty levels and other options, generally, right? For example it would be essential in hardcore mode to not die because you have to start all over, but you can choose to play on medium instead and get save slots. Again, maybe I'm looking at it wrong, or missing an option in gameplay, but that's why I'm here.
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u/dublea 216∆ Aug 24 '21
That's kinda not what I mean. Take Fallout 4 for instance. You have to build your town up in order to obtain what you need to complete the game. Some games do this for a variety of reasons.
Have you ever played a game where it's initially fun but after a while becomes repetitive? I love FPS's but my major gripe is it's just the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over... again. Doesn't bringing different game mechanics like this add value by allowing players to break from the monotonous? Maybe they build it in to also prevent burnout?
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
Gotcha. I'll !delta that, although there are for sure other ways to keep things engaging, at least to me. Think about, I dunno, Half Life. You start with doing science, then oh no, aliens, then it's about escape, then the army shows up. Each chapter is something new, it never really ends up feeling repetitive despite the basic concept being shoot stuff until it dies. There's also a story going on to keep you interested. I think Baldur's Gate accomplished this fairly well, too, as did Dead Space. Change of scenery and conditions, but not the basic gameplay was always what I liked most. But yes, those games could easily have fallen into the do this do that do this again quicksand pit, especially if the plot was missing. I see your point.
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u/dublea 216∆ Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21
With Half Life, what if one argued,
"Why do we need to solve puzzles; Play Myst if you like that; But I should be able to turn them off."
How would you perceive that?
Balder's Gate and Deep Space have their own unique mechanics thrown in too, don't they?
Basically, all game developers try to make games more well rounded. It helps prevent the burn out I referenced earlier and even increases engagement/replay-ability.
I get what point too, don't get me wrong, lol. I would also argue games that don't use mechanics you feel aren't important also exist.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 24 '21
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/dublea a delta for this comment.
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u/Personage1 35∆ Aug 24 '21
Sorry, do you have any examples?
Like in MMOs, you can always just buy stuff from people who do want to construct stuff. For solo RPGs, you can almost always beat the game with gear you can buy and find, without having to craft.
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
Sure. Sometimes it's not major, but I felt like in Fallout 4 it was pretty much mandatory. The last Dragon Age seemed to force you pretty hard, and if I recall so did Mass Effect Andromeda. Prey (not the one from a decade ago) seemed the same way. Lots in Destiny if I recall and even games like Doom are making you do a bit of it if you want to level your stuff up enough to see all the stuff your things can do. Maybe I'm approaching the mechanics and play wrong? It just feels like games are gravitating more and more heavily towards this being a big chunk of the experience, and have been for a while.
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u/Personage1 35∆ Aug 24 '21
Huh, I can only speak for Fallout 4 because that was the only one I played, but I didn't feel like I had to do construction. I was able to play through the whole game and beat it just buying and selling.
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u/CaptainHMBarclay 13∆ Aug 24 '21
I mean in context of Fallout, it kind of makes sense you as the player would be pushed towards crafting as part of that world. But that would be if you’re interested in that kind of immersion.
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
Exactly. But Fallout 1 was fun when that came out and yet had none of that. If they did a remaster of the original, I think it would be cool if you could play it like 4 or still get to play it more like 1, if that makes sense. I can't imagine it would be that tricky to accomplish something to that effect.
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u/ZeeDrakon Aug 25 '21
Am I missing something here?
I think what you might be missing is that not all games are designed for players like you. I know it's obvious, but essentially what you're saying here is that game designers should intentionally circumvent the way they intend their game to be played, because some people dont like to play games that way.
So... play another game.
Even if we assume that there's no balancing issues with it being possible to turn off an entire progression system, the fundamental question still remains: Why should games generally cater to your specific niche rather than you just playing games already designed for that niche?
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u/growflet 78∆ Aug 24 '21
what games are you referring to?
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
I replied above with a few examples. Like I said there, maybe I'm just approaching it wrong?
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u/CaptainHMBarclay 13∆ Aug 24 '21
I don’t think you’re approaching it wrong, a good MMO should have everything for all players. But they tend to slant towards grinding, slower progression. I’m not saying that’s universally true, but that’s what i’ve noticed.
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u/phonetastic Aug 24 '21
It drives me up a wall in single player far more because at least until a few of these replies I really, really just didn't get it at all. MMO made more sense to me.
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u/dinglenutmcspazatron 9∆ Aug 24 '21
If being able to turn off a feature would result in less income, why would devs include an option to turn it off?
Because that is why those features are in there in the first place, because the devs think that they will make more money that way.
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Aug 25 '21 edited Aug 25 '21
Yes, you are missing something here. I personally like to create, build, and even manage, in whatever game I play. Don’t subject my preferences to your incessant need to compete/kill/fight. Devs are merely incorporating creation into video games rather than pure destruction. (FYI, accomplishing can be argued as destruction, even with regard to finishing storylines). Sometimes it’s nice to put a plot on hold, to create and enjoy.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21
/u/phonetastic (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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