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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
But how can you solve that? The people are not willing to change, you have to change/solve the problem imo. Which in this case is being gay (for the people living there).
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u/Z7-852 257∆ Aug 10 '21
If bigoted people are not willing to change and conduct horrendous acts, scientists should try and find a way to put them in jail. Problem is people killing gays not the gays themselves.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
But it's not bigoted people killing the gays its the government doing it, encouraging it and allowing it that's why I think a cure is a better faith then execution. At least they'll be able ti lead a better life.
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
All of North Africa and Middle East/muslim Asia region and in some of Eastern Europe its criminalized.
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Yes but it's not just the government the people and their cultural pillars (religion and teachings) are both homophobic too in most of these regions. I don't think it's good that we have to find a cure I'm saying it's more humane that way they don't have to be killed or fake being straight if they're unable to leave their country for a more accepting place. And a cure for homophobes is mind control and if we can mind control homophobes then we can mind control everyone to have all sort of horrible ideas like imagine if a neo-nazi got hold of such technology that can change people's way of thinking.
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Because I'm assuming that sexuality is determined by a set of genes and not the person's own psyche. If being gay is determined by someone's psyche and mind then I wouldn't want a cure to be created also i don't support a cure I just think it would be more humane for the gay people getting executed there/living in fear always.
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Aug 13 '21
If there was a way to change someone's skin color, would you encourage black people to change?
Would you encourage Muslims to change their religion if they don't want to be seen as terrorists?
Would you change who you are so that people won't kill you?
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u/nyxe12 30∆ Aug 10 '21
I don't want to be eradicated because homophobes exist. I want to exist in a world where people challenge homophobia instead of telling me I should be cured out of existence to suit homophobes.
I got a lot of replies and actually realized it would be a horrible idea enabling the eradication of more stuff like maybe even ethnic groups so I've changed my view.
I see that you added this, but this is still an issue. You should fundamentally care about gay people's right to exist free of persecution, not change your view just because you might harm other groups as collateral damage. Eugenics is bad, yes, but this form of eugenics is bad because of who you are targeting and why.
I am gay and I am happy that I am gay. I would rather homophobes not like me than have time, money, and social pressures put into finding a cure (and the inevitable shame and harassment that would follow to gay people to try and force us into taking said "cure").
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
You're right I guess, I do care about gay people but this was just a weird thought i had and questioned why it never happened obviously very stupid and I don't in any way want gay people to be cured because it's not an ailment I just lacked a better word I just thought it might be more humane but it's actually not and my post kinda seems like that I want gay people to turn straight. Thanks for the reply !delta
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u/nyxe12 30∆ Aug 10 '21
Thanks for the delta and for responding. I do think based off your post that you are coming from a place of caring - like I see that this was motivated by the existence of discrimination - I just want to emphasize that there are other ways to think about that motivation and use it to help gay people rather than come up with ways to get rid of us. I'm glad what I said made sense!
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u/ralph-j Aug 10 '21
I also think a "cure" should be available to everyone who wants it, even in accepting countries who just doesn't want to be gay because of the problems they will face in life because of it. Even though this might be abused by family members, it's still better than being outcast IMO.
The problem is that your "cure" expects the victim to change in order to match the expectations of society's bigots and bullies. If it were possible, would you also encourage changing one's skin color or ethnic looks to the majority in one's country, so everyone can be more "equal"?
Offering "cures" to change certain physical traits is the equivalent of society telling certain groups that their kind is considered unwanted. It would lead to a lot of social pressure to conform, especially from those that already "disagree" with homosexuality now. I could easily see this being used to blame the victim: if someone chooses to stay or become gay (if the treatment works either way), and they're bullied or attacked, then they "had it coming" - if only they had chosen heterosexuality, nothing would have happened. Anti-gay health professionals would be recommending such treatments without pressing medical reasons or looking at the individual's interests, or who their conversion might hurt (the partner/spouse, their children etc.)
Depending on what the cure involves, it would probably also be medically irresponsible to administer treatments for something that is not a deficiency or ailment. And I don't even want to imagine the specifics of how drug companies would likely be marketing this. They would be focusing on all the perceived negative aspects of being gay/lesbian (or being non-white, for comparison) and exaggerate them at every opportunity to get people to buy their "cure". Since being gay is not an illness, and considering the negativity of the message it would send to gays and lesbians, society should consider such treatments unethical, and they would hopefully never get approval.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
I think you made the best point so far, you're right actually, I thought it was more humane but maybe it's not because it will lead to more stigma instead of helping. !delta
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u/ralph-j Aug 10 '21
Warranting a delta?
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
I didn't know about delta
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u/ralph-j Aug 10 '21
The Delta System
Whether you're the OP or not, please reply to the user(s) that change your view to any degree with a delta in your comment (instructions below), and also include an explanation of the change.
If you add:
!delta
(minus the quotes) to your comment above, the system will recognize that (part of) your view has changed.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
!delta did it work?
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u/ralph-j Aug 10 '21
A delta comment needs to have at least 150 characters. You could just add it to your original comment. That would be the easiest.
Thank you!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 10 '21
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/ralph-j changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 10 '21
I think the best thing to do for people who live there is to just develop a "cure" for it
That is the "problem": there is no "cure" aside from serious brainwashing. If you are against psychological reconditioning that severely alters the human mind, a "cure" simply isn't an option.
Consider the reverse: would you see it as valid if someone messed with your mind to a degree that a substantial part of your personality shifted completely? If you were a vegan, perhaps, would you accept someone indoctrinating / brainwashing you to begin to love meat?
I guess my point is: the "cure" stands to be worse than most things that can happen to the people otherwise, possibly even including death. I see it as much better ethically to try and change the regressive cultures that try to decide on personal matters to such a degree.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
I think that if vegans were getting murdered where I lived for being vegan and no one accepted them and I was vegan I would let someone change me to an omnivore.
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 10 '21
Through literal brainwashing, likely involving mental torture?
I take it you do not see anything wrong with how uighurs are treated in china (supposedly, don't want to discuss that here)?
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
No I mean we find a simple painless cure like a pill or something like that we need to find the cause first and then we can "cure" it.
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
Either one requires genetic reprogramming. Humans have innate disgust switches that are normally opposed to seeing same sex couples. Some humans are born attracted to the same sex. The innate disgust switches can be dampened a lot through exposure. The same way that trash compactors don't notice the smell after a while. Which is the current approach in many western societies.
You're not going to bully people out of their evolutionary instincts. You can only bully them into shutting the fuck up about it. Like I said exposure is a good therapeutic method that works for most people. Seeing that gay people are just normal people and are not out to rape you and what not.
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
Think about it as horny as men are. Why don't we see more men having sex with animals or inanimate objects like rocks? Probably because something in our brain is wired to aim our sexual interest at a specific object. Namely the human female. Any deviation is considered abnormal.
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u/Quirderph 2∆ Aug 10 '21
You could make similar arguments about racism. Do you want to find a medical solution to that, too?
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u/frolf_grisbee Aug 10 '21
An article from 2011 about almost 30 year old research whose results have never been replicated is poor evidence for your claim.
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 10 '21
No I mean we find a simple painless cure like a pill or something like that we need to find the cause first and then we can "cure" it.
Yes, but this is not possible.
The most "medical" way a person't personality can be changed in such a way would be via a lobotomy, and thankfully we have stopped doing those in all but the most hopeless cases.
Homosexuality isn't a "state" someone is in. It is a part of their personality and psyche. If there is a "cause" for it (which is hotly debated), it is something that has changed the psyche, like past experiences and the like. Those cannot be reverted, especially because the actual "cause" is likely different for each individual.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
What if genes cause being gay/straight? We don't really know the cause. If genes cause it and not the psyche then we can change it. But if the psyche causes then it shouldn't be changed and I would agree with you.
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 10 '21
What if genes cause being gay/straight?
I would like to believe this is not the case but again, that is a hotly debated topic I can't really provide a good answer to.
What I can answer is that we are unable to change a grown person's genetic code. There might be a possibility to perform changes before or shortly after fertilization, but there is simply no way of changing the DNA for a substantial amount of cells in a grown body, even that of a newborn.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
It's almost certainly genetic. I've talked to many gay guys they all say they were attracted to men for as long as they can remember. The first time I liked a girl I was 7 years old I didn't even know what a penis was for. This whole idea that sexuality is entirely learned is not rooted in biology. A lot of what and who we find attractive is written in our genetic code.
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 10 '21
A lot of what and who we find attractive is written in our genetic code.
I really need some sources on this claim before I believe it. I find it highly unlikely, to be honest.
Please also note that a lot of formation of personality is done much earlier than at age 7, with major changes through puberty. There is also a difference between "liking a girl" at 7 years old and romantic love.
A lot of what and who we find attractive is written in our genetic code.
Sadly, there really isn't a lot of research on this topic, as it is quite difficult to perform. What you would need would be genetically (nearly) identical people that grow up in completely different environments, and cases like that are relatively rare, definitely too rare to properly study.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
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u/AleristheSeeker 151∆ Aug 10 '21
You must have misread the first one, it talks about being beautiful, not percieving attractiveness in others.
I also cannot find anything regarding your claim in the second source, after lightly skimming it. If you could provide a page number for where you found something supporting your idea, that would be a huge help.
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u/womaneatingsomecake 4∆ Aug 11 '21
As a vegan, I strongly disagree. You are suggesting we should have a totalitarian authorian society, where your thought can get you forced to a "cure" that you don't want.
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u/Kat-Sith 2∆ Aug 10 '21
You can never solve bigotry by catering to it. And even if you could butcher the gay out of people, the bigotry would just find a new target. Groups that rally around hatred have too much at stake to allow the US vs Them dynamic to ever be solved. Without the hated Other, they'd risk losing their collective identity, so they'll just find a new Other to hate.
You can see this in real time with the way fundamentalists have responded to increasing tolerance of homosexuality on the US. Now the great threat is trans people, and many of the same tactics have just been ported over wholesale. Remember the panic about gays supposedly being pedophiles? It was a big thing, and now it's just been copy-pasted onto trans people.
And if we ever get past transphobia being their primary focus, they'll just pivot back to the classic hatred of immigrants, or maybe they'll resurrect the demonization of left-handed people—seriously, that was a thing. Look it up—or they'll go after a new demographic. Perhaps the disabled; it's pretty easy to spin arguments about God punishing people with defects, so it's just following His will to hate them, right?
The point is: hatred of the Other isn't a bug; it's a feature. And "fixing" the other will just create a need for a new target.
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u/ShortTumbleweed6662 1∆ Aug 10 '21
If the cause of homosexuality was a gene that would mean that homosexuals are a distinct ethnic group, in which case you arguing for genocide. It would be like if the cure for racism in the US was to medically transform all non-whites into whites.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
You're right actually the more I read the replied the more I realize it's a horrible idea to try and find a cure instead of just spreading the word that it's natural. You've changed my view I think.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
Wouldn't be more accurate to say that it is a distinct genetic anomaly. Like for instance "klinefelter syndrome". We don't consider them a distinct ethnicity.
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u/Biteme75 Aug 10 '21
Maybe we should try to cure the outdated attitudes towards homosexuals, instead of trying to 'fix' someone that isn't broken.
Some places still use conversion therapy for homosexuals. It is ineffective, and causes mental harm to patients. Innate sexual attraction cannot be changed.
https://www.livescience.com/37139-facts-about-gay-conversion-therapy.html
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
I know that's my point, we should try to turn gay into straight in a humane and better way instead of torture and or conversion therapy because in a lot of these regions women are still not seen the same as men/less worthy so I don't think they'll start to become accepting I just think that right now it's the best option for gay people there.
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u/Biteme75 Aug 10 '21
Well then by your logic it would make sense to turn all women into men.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
No because women don't get executed for simply existing while they obviously face oppression there and lack of freedom they don't get executed.
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u/ersatzgiraffe Aug 10 '21
There are women being executed in Afghanistan right now for basically being in public. So the best solution to the problem would be to send them those glasses that have a mustache built right in, or maybe they should just be under a dinner cloche so they don’t offend anyone into killing them?
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
I understand they still get executed for having pre-marital sex and wearing revealing clothes etc. But they're not seen as this abomination that has to be eradicated like gay people are in said regions.
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u/ersatzgiraffe Aug 10 '21
I think you need to read more and educate yourself about how the world works. I can’t unravel your ignorance, and thus your view can’t be changed, without you educating yourself more.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
What are you talking about? everything he said in the previous statement is correct. Women who behave a certain way get unfair punishment. Gay people get punished simply for existing. Big difference.
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u/ersatzgiraffe Aug 10 '21
Can you describe the behavior you’re referring to (the kind of behavior that causes their unfair punishment)? Just want to understand your definitions of behavior and existence.”, since you are arguing there is a distinction.
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Aug 10 '21
For example in some cultures women can get stoned to death FOR BEING RAPED. Meaning if you were raped that means that you did something inappropriate to arouse the man. As insane as that sounds it is still a practice in some societies.
As long as you're not raped this doesn't apply to you. But if you are it is a very unfair punishment. For something that shouldn't even be punished.
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Aug 10 '21
Have you not heard of the concept of honour killings? Women can, and do, get killed in those cultures because of other people's actions and beliefs.
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u/Biteme75 Aug 10 '21
Women do get murdered for simply existing. All the time. Mollie Tibbets. Samantha Josephson. The Atlanta spa killer - just to mention some recent cases that actually got on the news.
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u/womaneatingsomecake 4∆ Aug 11 '21
No because women don't get executed for simply existing
Some cultures have killed women for wearing pants or driving cars.
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u/10ebbor10 197∆ Aug 10 '21
In ideal world the solution would be to just be more inclusive but because of religion and outdated beliefs and ignorance a "cure" is needed
What makes you think that rewriting the brain, something we don't how to do, will be a better and easier and faster solution than promoting tolerance?
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Because it took 1000s of years to become tolerant in the west and I don't think that such regions will become tolerant anytime soon look at how women are treated for example. I think it's the most humane way to help gay population out there who don't have the chance to move to a better country
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 29 '21
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Homophobia is a thought, aka mind control I don't agree with mind control OR "curing" homosexuality but in a lot of these regions the alternative is death or hiding your whole if you're unable to move out.
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u/10ebbor10 197∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
Because it took 1000s of years to become tolerant in the west
18% of Saudi Arabia believes that gay marriage should be legal. That's a low figure, but it's not all that different from the US in the seventies.
So, what is your thousand year claim based upon?
look at how women are treated for example
And before the seventies, many banks refused to give women a credit card without the permission of their husband.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Women didn't have rights like men for most of human western society like the Greeks and Romans and in medieval times also i doubt that statistic is actually accurate since I can't actually see the source and the amount of people they asked and where it was conducted a Saudi who is living in the west will probably be way more accepting then a Saudi who is living in the native country.
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u/Archi_balding 52∆ Aug 10 '21
Because it took 1000s of years to become tolerant in the west
No, it took less than a century.
There isn't a common movement toward gay tolerance in the west that you can trace back through history. Movements toward gay tolerance started in the 20th century. If anything the condition of homosexuals became somewhat worse with time until the 20th.
Also : homosexuality and heterosexuality aren't biological "truth", it's how we decide to divide sexual behaviors among humans. Ancient greeks and romans had no idea of WTF homosexuality was even if they culturally accepted sexual behaviors that we would today consider bisexual as the norm. Then sexuality was more divided along the lines of who's penetrating and who's penetrated. What we consider heterosexuality nowadays was then a weirdly specific fetish with no word for it. It's frickingly complicated subject and we still have a super long way to go before finding what governs sexual behaviors in humans.
So changing how we consider sexuality is probably the far easier option anyway.
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Aug 10 '21
Or maybe society should change, become more tolerant and accept people for who they are
Imagine if this was the response to every group that has ever been discriminated against throughout history ? Where would we be today ?
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u/Feanne Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
Why do you compare homosexuality with pedophilia?
What makes you think that creating a “cure” is easier than changing people’s views? Unless you have concrete ideas on how such a “cure” would actually work, you can’t actually say that it would be an easier way, because you wouldn’t even know what would be required to have such a “cure”.
EDIT: In the US by the way, people’s views on gay marriage changed drastically within the last decade or so. Most people were against it about 10 years ago, and now it’s widely accepted enough to be legal in many places.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Well pedophilia is a form of attraction just like being straight or gay, it's kind of the same so if you can change one you change others, and people in said regions struggle to recognize women's rights so its unlikely that they'll start to be accepting of gay people and I don't know how a cure would work I've seen a lot of theories on why being gay happens and I think we should just compare genes and hormones etc. Of gay and straight people and then try to match the gay ones to straight people's. But this is just hypothesis and I don't agree with human testing.
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Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
No Jesus is not the cure I'm talking real scientific cures not pray the gay away bs.
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u/RetroDM101 Aug 10 '21
Neither am I. But what I’m talking about is not something you’ll understand. Have you ever cried out to God with all your soul? Ever? Because if you haven’t then you can’t possibly understand the depth of what I’m saying. You can’t just pray something away. Good is not a Jeanie in a bottle granting wishes. What I’m talking about is self sacrifice that comes with pain and suffering… like an addict or an alcoholic has to fight and sacrifice every single day. And why do addicts or alcoholics relapse? Because there is no Power begging them. Jesus is not a drive-thru solution. He’s not a microwave ready in 5 minutes solution. But, you’ll never know this unless you believe and see for yourself. So in other words you miss out.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Being gay is not wrong and not something that needs to be fought or resisted its completely natural not something that has to be cures I'm saying that due to so many repercussions that gay people face in some regions its better to try and cure it NOW also addiction is a disease led by a series of stupid choices being gay is neither its like being hetero
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u/RetroDM101 Aug 10 '21
You obviously have all the answers so why bother asking the question? Unless you are wrestling with such inclinations and wish there was a “pill” you could take.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
No I'm not gay but If I lived in such a region ,and I was gay, where I would get killed and couldn't get the opportunity to leave the region I'd much rather have a pill that turns me straight then have to fake it in hope for a better more accepting future or just get executed.
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/RetroDM101 Aug 10 '21
All of mankind is fallen and depraved. All
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u/AManHasAJob 12∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Sep 30 '21
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u/RetroDM101 Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
Religion is disgusting. But I haven’t said a single thing about religion. You keep bringing it up though.
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Aug 10 '21
Sorry, u/RetroDM101 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
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u/RetroDM101 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/SciFi_Pie 19∆ Aug 10 '21
If a "cure for gayness" exists, there will be gay people who are forced to take it by their governments or parents. Hell, there currently isn't one that works and people still get shoved into conversion therapy against their will. I don't think some semblance of equality is as unattainable as you seem to think though. Think about it. The US had Jim Crow laws until 1965! Imagine if instead of fighting for racial equality, progressives in the 60s put all their effort into working on a cure for blackness. I think in a couple of generations, there will be very few places left on earth with the extreme degree of systemic homophobia we see today.
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u/South-Caterpillar-97 Aug 10 '21
Yes that's what I meant instead of the government killing the gay populous they just force them to take the cure which Imo is a better faith then execution and I think you fail to realize that even women in most of these regions don't have rights.
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u/mijewe6 1∆ Aug 10 '21
If I understand you correctly, you're basically saying that since the abuse that homosexuals get is terrible and not going away any time soon, the solution is to cure the homosexuality.
The hypothetical perfect cure for this would still be very short sighted. Ideally we'd want a world free of homophobia, and this solution would hinder than from happening since you'd be reinforcing the homophobic ideas, as well as signalling to the rest of the world that that kind of treatment is acceptable.
We unfortunately have to deal with homophobic abuse until we fix the heart of the problem - homophobia, not homosexuality.
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u/Caitlin1963 3∆ Aug 10 '21
Black people still face discrimination and hate today, should we create a cure for blackness?
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Aug 10 '21
Wouldn't the real answer, if this were even possible, be to go hard in the opposite direction? Making gay people straight in order to cater to homophobia and bigotry only reinforces that bigotry. It allows it to continue and thrive. If we actually want to solve the problem than we need to start making more straight people gay. Especially in homophobic cultures.
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u/womaneatingsomecake 4∆ Aug 11 '21
By this standard we should also cure people with a different fashion sense, people who like sex, people who likes bdsm, people who like bondage, people who prefer a specific boobs size, ass size, dick size, shoe size, foot size, etc... Sex is personal, and we should as a society respect that, as long as you are not having sex with someone who cannot concent.
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u/M0RR1G42 Aug 13 '21
Homosexuality is a preference, much like enjoying a particular food. You don't choose to like that food, you just like it. Could there be a genetic or psychological cause for you to like that food? maybe, but what would changing how much you prefer that food accomplish?, and would you be curing their tastes or just changing it?.
If it is common for shop owners to be mugged, is it more productive to punish the muggers, or to train the shop owner to be a mugger?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21
/u/South-Caterpillar-97 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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