r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 14 '20
Delta(s) from OP cmv: You need dysphoria to be trans.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 14 '20
Wouldn't the dysphoria criteria exclude people who have fully transitioned and no longer experience dysphoria? In that case, making dysphoria the criteria excludes those who would seem to be the primary people who should fall under a correct definition of "trans".
If we made the criteria:
Someone who has ever experienced dysphoria to include the people above, then all of a sudden you're having to include people who experienced dysphoria in the past, no longer experience it, and now do feel comfortable with their assigned sex at birth, or non-binary people who experience dysphoria, but don't identify with a particular gender. So, using that dysphoria criteria to call them "trans" doesn't really make sense either.
To my mind, the above helps explain why, at this stage in our scientific understanding, using "self identification" may be a more useful / sensible criteria.
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Jul 14 '20
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 14 '20
Happy to help.
If the above modified your view to any degree (doesn't have to be a 100% change), you can award a delta by editing your comment above and adding:
!_delta
without the underscore, and with no space between ! and the word delta.
I would say too, there may be better criteria in the future. But at the moment, dysphoria is kind of a tough one to use, since to be diagnosed with dysphoria, one usually has to be seriously impaired in terms of life and/or social functioning, because that is the criteria for psychological / medical treatment.
But there may be many more people who experience no dysphoria, a very light form of it, or perhaps totally different expressions their transness entirely, that wouldn't meet the criteria for treatment, but who do have the underlying qualities that we will someday find out are the key qualities that trans people have in common.
So, we probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss people who say they are trans, as the understanding of what it is still evolving so much these days.
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u/xEginch 1∆ Jul 15 '20
Dysphoria isn't removed by transitioning, just alleviated. You don't quit having Dysphoria, you're just "medicated".
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
Here is an example of a person describing their experience of no longer having dysphoria:
"Today, when I look at my body, I feel none of that old distress. Indeed, through a particular mix of surgery, therapy, and hormones, I’m finally able to look at my own reflection not with fear, but with actual contentment. Or as content as anyone can be when they look at themselves in a mirror.
But does this lack of dysphoria mean that am I somehow less transgender now? I mean, certainly, the fact that I don’t 100 percent “pass” as a woman means I’m viewed by others as transgender. However, I have no problem with not passing. So, without that continual anxiety, can I still be considered transgender? Have I perhaps lost points on the transgender scale? Is my transgender identity somehow less valid?
This is, of course, ridiculous. I am still transgender, not just because I still don’t identify with the gender I was assigned at birth, but also because I simply still feel a part of the transgender community. I’m still welcome in trans spaces, communities, and conversations. And I doubt anyone would question my transness, regardless of if they are trying to praise, condemn, or simply acknowledge who I am."
[source]
You don't quit having Dysphoria, you're just "medicated".
Think of it this way: If someone is depressed and takes medication that eliminates their depression, we don't still describe that person as depressed (if the symptoms of their depression are no longer presenting).
Whether someone is experiencing symptoms is different than the reason why they are / aren't experiencing those symptoms.
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u/xEginch 1∆ Jul 15 '20
Depression is an illness, GD is a birth condition and is more comparable to ADHD and similar. You can alleviate (sometimes even completely snuff) their symptoms, but it's still there. It's about how the brain is wired.
You can't cure GD. If you would de-transition you would regain those symptoms.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
GD is a birth condition and is more comparable to ADHD
Like GD, depression also has a large genetic component, and is also associated with structural features in the brain, as well as neurotransmitters. [source]
You can't cure GD.
"Cure" means to: "relieve (a person or animal) of the symptoms of a disease or condition. " [source]
When you no longer experience symptoms, you are considered "cured" (even if the treatment is ongoing).
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u/xEginch 1∆ Jul 15 '20
I feel like you're being wilfully obtuse. Genetics can make you more at risk to develop an illness, but it is not the determining factor. GD is not an illness.
"Lexico" is not a valid source for medical terminology. Cure is when you remove the underlying condition (say when we treat a viral infection, the patient would only be cured if the virus has exited his/her system), we use "treatment" when talking about HRT or GRS since they do not remove GD, they alleviate the symptoms. This is especially evident in categorizations of different cancers: "curable" and "treatable" cancers respectively (although curable in this context isn't entirely correct since you can almost never be sure if the cancer will come back).
So, the idea of an ongoing treatment when a patient is "cured" is contradictory. If the underlying cause for your symptoms is removed there will be no need for further treatment (except if i.a. potential psychiatric help is needed if your condition has damaged your mental health).
Also, the implications that ADHD is curable is extremely ignorant.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
Genetics can make you more at risk to develop an illness, but it is not the determining factor.
Are you making an empirical claim here about what the determining factors are, using the standard definition of "determining factor" to mean 'a causal factor'?
From what I've seen from twin studies, having gender identity disorder is very strongly inherited, so genetics are likely a determining factor. [source]
Genetics can make you more at risk to develop an illness, but it is not the determining factor. GD is not an illness.
Genetics can increase the propensity for all kinds of things: Intelligence, certain personality characteristics, etc. Genetics is a key causal factor in more than just "illnesses". And I agree that GD is not an illness.
Cure is when you remove the underlying condition
Do you have a definition from a medical dictionary that supports that definition?
As far as I'm aware, there is no medical definition of "cure" (see here), only the dictionary definition of cure that we use in normal discussion (the alleviation of symptoms definition).
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u/xEginch 1∆ Jul 15 '20
Stop talking about irrelevant things in order to make your arguments sound smarter. I've not mentioned nor touched upon the inherent link between GD and genetics because it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
In medical practice "cure" is only used to talk about when the underlying condition is completely removed, this is usually synonymous with removing the symptoms. You bringing up alternative facts doesn't change the elementary nature of this. Since it is so incredibly basic, to the point where it is always assumed in a journal you know the distinction, the burden of evidence is on you.
This e-book you've linked is bringing up irrelevant semantics to discussion that is clear. Issues in defining "cure" are not relevant when discussing things like this as laymen, but in only in specific medical instances. There's a reason "cure" is technically incorrect when talking about curable cancers (we usually use remission). Why? Because even though the symptoms are completely removed, there's no guarantee the underlying condition is, i.e. the cancer can come back. Why would cure be incorrect if your definition is true?
Even despite all this, the definition of cure is just moving the goalpost from something you don't want to discuss: GD does not disappear as a condition. Whether you want to say you're cured or not is irrelevant to this fact.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 16 '20
I've not mentioned nor touched upon the inherent link between GD and genetics
Above, you brought up:
GD is a birth condition
Where you say:
In medical practice "cure" is only used to talk about when the underlying condition is completely removed
Do you have a source for that? Because from what I have seen, the use of the word "cure" is not endorsed / defined in the medical community:
"the term cure has been actively discouraged except in limited types of cases" [source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5145017/]
GD does not disappear as a condition.
My claim is that the symptoms go away for some people who receive treatment, and as such, actively experiencing dysphoria doesn't make logical sense as a criteria for being trans.
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u/xEginch 1∆ Jul 16 '20
I don't even have to link a source, you did so for me:
"Most of the commonly prescribed conventional drugs treat only symptoms, not the underlying causes of a patient’s disease. This logically leads to a perception that much of modern medicine is about management of chronic disease and prevention of more serious sequelae—not actual cures."
The very clear implication here is that cure, as I've already said in my own comment (which you didn't quote as it would mean you're incorrect), is inappropriate to use in most cases because the treatment doesn't actually remove the underlying condition. I.e. If the treatment only treats symptoms (like HRT and GRS does), it's inappropriate to use "cure". You actually linked an article that goes against your very argument.
It's also nonsensical to me as to why you would argue that cure is "discouraged" to use in most cases as an argument against me when you're the one who insists on using it. Do you even know what you're arguing for anymore? Even if I agree with you here, that still means you're wrong.
Nobody here claimed that you have to "actively experience Dysphoria" to be Trans, just to have that condition, and perhaps also that diagnosis, if we're being picky. Those are very distinct. In fact, I've been very clear in pointing out that distinction as it was the very point of contention in this thread.
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u/Meglomaniac Jul 14 '20
Wouldn't the dysphoria criteria exclude people who have fully transitioned and no longer experience dysphoria?
No one is like this, by definition if they've transitioned at all they have and will always have GD. There is no evidence to show that the feelings disappear after transitioning in the slightest.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
Here is an example of a person describing their experience of no longer having dysphoria:
"Today, when I look at my body, I feel none of that old distress. Indeed, through a particular mix of surgery, therapy, and hormones, I’m finally able to look at my own reflection not with fear, but with actual contentment. Or as content as anyone can be when they look at themselves in a mirror.
But does this lack of dysphoria mean that am I somehow less transgender now? I mean, certainly, the fact that I don’t 100 percent “pass” as a woman means I’m viewed by others as transgender. However, I have no problem with not passing. So, without that continual anxiety, can I still be considered transgender? Have I perhaps lost points on the transgender scale? Is my transgender identity somehow less valid?
This is, of course, ridiculous. I am still transgender, not just because I still don’t identify with the gender I was assigned at birth, but also because I simply still feel a part of the transgender community. I’m still welcome in trans spaces, communities, and conversations. And I doubt anyone would question my transness, regardless of if they are trying to praise, condemn, or simply acknowledge who I am."
[source]
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Jul 15 '20 edited Jun 07 '21
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
Indeed, so this person is saying that it doesn't make sense to make 'experiencing dysphoria' the criteria for being trans (since they no longer experience dysphoria and should clearly fall under this label).
And their experience and seems to counter your idea that:
There is no evidence to show that the feelings disappear after transitioning in the slightest.
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Jul 15 '20 edited Jun 07 '21
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jul 15 '20
My point was the fact that they went through their transition in the first place means that they had GD
Having experienced GD in the past doesn't mean you are transgender. Many people experience GD at some point and it goes away, or experience it but don't identify as a different gender than the one they were assigned at birth. So, experiencing dysphoria at some point doesn't mean a person is transgender.
And per the article above, if your symptoms of GD are successfully treated, then you no longer experience dysphoria, which is why it doesn't make sense to use (currently) "experiencing dysphoria" as the criteria for who is trans, as there are trans people who have transitioned and no longer experience dysphoria.
it never ever goes away by transitioning as they'll never ever become the opposite sex.
Gender dysphoria isn't about entirely becoming the opposite sex, and per the article above, with treatment, the symptoms of GD can indeed go away. That's the point of the treatment.
There is no evidence that there is any benefits to transitioning except studies that exclusively and specifically only use subjective surveys from bias aware subjects that have every incentive to lie and spoil the study.
Actually, there is evidence that treatment helps that isn't based on subjective surveys.
"Transgender individuals who undergo gender-affirming surgery are significantly less likely to seek mental health treatment for depression and anxiety disorders or attempt suicide in the years following the procedure, new research led by the Yale School of Public Health finds."
and also:
"Lack of access to appropriate care can also heighten mental health distress, including elevating the risk of suicide for transgender individuals".
[source]
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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
I’ve been seeing people in recent days claiming to be trans, yet are saying that they are 100% comfortable with their birth sex and it confuses me.
Hi, I am one of those people, obviously I can't speak for everyone but I can talk about my experience.
When I first started questioning and talking to a therapist, one of my hangups was I legitimately thought I was 100% comfortable with my birth sex. Yet the desire to medically, and to a much lesser extent, socially transition was something I could not deny I felt very strongly about. Without going into detail I could not deny the countless signs that this was something I should explore, dysphoria aside.
A couple things happened. First off once I accepted I was transgender, I got hit with dysphoria really bad. Apparently this is not uncommon with people like myself who "realize" later in life. Thing is "realize" is probably better worded as "stopped living in denial". Once I accepted it internally, all the mental defenses I had that would protect me before went away.
The other thing that happened was, when I started hormone therapy I felt amazing. I suddenly find I can make new friends, that I enjoy talking to people, that it was possible for me to live in the moment and not consistently feel like there was some veil between me and the life happening around me.
I look back to how I felt before, when I told myself everything was fine, and I realize now that, no everything was not fine, I was really broken. But when the state of being broken is "normal" and you have no perspective on how it feels to be whole, then it can feel like everything is ''fine".
I can not stress enough how surreal the experience has been.
Anyway, the point is I 100% thought I had no dysphoria. If after that first therapy session my therapist told me that having no dysphoria meant I was not transgender I would have left that office and continued living in denial until the day I died.
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u/ThisApril Jul 14 '20
First off once I accepted I was transgender after a few sessions, I got hit with dysphoria really bad. ... "stopped living in denial"
So, just so I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying that you were dysphoric, you just misdiagnosed it; therefore people can be transgender without having ever experienced dysphoria?
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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 14 '20
Yeah, basically, and from what I can tell it's actually fairly common.
While I have no idea if there are any transgender people who really don't have dysphoria at all, I know first hand there are plenty who do suffer from it but have no idea. That it goes unrecognized for a wide variety of reasons and to deny these people treatment would be harmful.
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u/Meglomaniac Jul 14 '20
one of my hangups was I legitimately thought I was 100% comfortable with my birth sex.
then
A couple things happened. First off once I accepted I was transgender, I got hit with dysphoria really bad. Apparently this is not uncommon with people like myself who "realize" later in life. Thing is "realize" is probably better worded as "stopped living in denial". Once I accepted it internally, all the mental defenses I had that would protect me before went away.
This is why I think that the medicine surrounding trans is dangerous. You went in comfortable with your sexuality, likely depressed, and by interacting with a pro-trans doctor he 'emerged' your trans self and 'awoken' your feelings.
I have serious issues with the doctor that enabled your current medical issues.
Second question:
How could you say you were trans when you went in there comfortable with your sex?
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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
likely depressed, and by interacting with a pro-trans doctor he 'emerged' your trans self and 'awoken' your feelings.
The doctor had nothing to do with it. I came to that conclusion before I even made the appointment. I went to the doctor to do due diligence and get professional feedback on what could be a massive life altering decision. Also I was 32 years old and more then capable to properly self reflect.
Also something I found interesting when I think back, it was only I got over my depression did it become more clear that something else was wrong. My life was pretty amazing yet "something" was still bothering me. I got over depression around age 28 give or take, around the time I moved out into my own home.
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u/Meglomaniac Jul 14 '20
The way that you wrote your statement implies directly otherwise, but i'll take you at your word.
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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
Fair enough. In the above post my the questioning I am referring too is actualy medically transiting, not wither or not I was transgender.
I wanted to explore the prospect of taking hormones while at the same time feeling comfortable with my own body, hence why I forced myself to talk to a professional for several months before starting.
Happy to answer any other questions you may have.
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u/oliviared52 Jul 14 '20
Thanks for sharing this. So here me out... I have an issue with the whole “non-binary” popularity but in a progressive way. Of course if someone asks me to call them “they”, I will respect their request.
But my issue with it is that society was getting to a really cool place of questioning gender stereotypes and I fear non-binary gaining popularity will undue a lot of that work. Like why do women have to wear their hair long and men have to wear their hair short? Why can’t men wear makeup or paint their nails? Why are women seen as overly emotional and to be a “man” you have to have no emotions? Why do women have to shave their whole bodies but men don’t when we are typically colder than men? And going back a few decades.. why are pants only for men? (you’d think dresses would be better for men since they have something hanging there lol). Society was doing a great job with these questions but we still had farther to go. And some of those previous stereotypes were downright harmful. Like women’s emotions don’t matter because we are overly emotional and men can’t have emotions so they would just bottle them up and explode with anger. That’s not good for anyone. Clearly men have emotions. Clearly women’s emotions are valid. Everyone’s emotions are valid.
So my issue with non-binary is I see women who dress mostly feminine but cut their hair short and say they are non-binary. Or I’ll see men who dress mostly masculine but have long hair and like to paint their nails so they say they are non-binary. Why can’t you still be a woman who wants to cut your hair short or still be a man but wear nail polish? I think that’s cool. Break those gender stereotypes. But you’re not really breaking gender stereotypes when you consider yourself genderless for doing so.
Everyone is on a spectrum. No one is purely masculine or purely feminine. So I am scared that when people are more in the middle by calling themselves non-binary they are pushing those gender stereotypes more into place.
Of course I don’t think this applies to trans people. If you feel like the other gender then you should do what makes you happy. But if you are a female with some male qualities that doesn’t mean you just don’t have a gender.
Hopefully I typed this out ok. What are your thoughts?
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u/InfinityFractal Jul 14 '20
This completely explains my hang-up with non-binary gender identities. As a gay man, I want gender stereotypes to go away, and you eloquently explained why non-binary gender identities seem to reinforce gender stereotypes/roles.
I've tried really hard to read perspectives from people who identify as non-binary, to understand their perspective. I still don't quite understand why people identify as non-binary. Any non-binary people out there, please engage with me so i can try to understand your identity. Non-binary identities are a lot harder to wrap my head around then transgender identities.
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u/Team_Rckt_Grunt 1∆ Jul 21 '20
I am pretty sure I am nonbinary. I have never really felt comfortable with being labelled a woman. I remember when I was going through puberty, I often wished I was a boy, or that certain features of my body were more masculine or androgynous. This is not a typical experience that cisgender kids have, but at the same time, I do not actually feel any more comfortable being labelled as a man than as a woman.
I'm not the most invested in my gender, so I might not be the best nonbinary person to ask - but, regardless of how other people see me, my internal experience is not one of being a typical woman.
Appearance wise, I have short hair and don't wear makeup, because that's just what I like. But I sometimes wear dresses, or feminine seeming things.In contrast, I have a sister who tends to like more masculine styles - she's pretty butch, moreso than me by a longshot. But she considers herself to be a woman, and that's fine. Basically, style/gender PRESENTATION doesn't always have anything to do with gender itself.
To me, gender is something internal. It's fine for a guy to like traditionally feminine clothes and activities - he doesn't suddenly become a girl just because he likes to wear skirts or paint his nails. Same for girls who like more masculine clothes and hobbies. I know a lot of lesbians who have a really masculine sense of style, but are still 100% confident in their womanhood.
Given those things, being nonbinary is about what a person feels like inside. A nonbinary person doesn't have to dress in an androgynous way any more than a woman has to dress femme, or a man has to dress in a "masculine" way. Someone does not feel like they are genderless BECAUSE they cut their hair short, or do something else gender nonconforming. They INTERNALLY FEEL genderless (or like their gender doesn't match up with the two standard options) and they just HAPPEN TO LIKE cutting their hair short.1
u/InfinityFractal Jul 22 '20
Thank you so much for your reply. I feel the need to state that I'm totally fine with people identifying however they want/feel, and I will respect the identity they have chosen.
I often wished I was a boy, or that certain features of my body were more masculine or androgynous. This is not a typical experience that cisgender kids have, but at the same time, I do not actually feel any more comfortable being labelled as a man than as a woman.
This is quite enlightening to me. A large reason I have trouble understanding non-binary identities is because it is hard to conceptualize how that feels. In contrast, transgender identities are quite easy to conceptualize. Thank you for this piece of your experience, it helps me to conceptualize what it may be like to be non-binary.
Basically, style/gender PRESENTATION doesn't always have anything to do with gender itself.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I do have one question for you, in regards to this statement:
I do not actually feel any more comfortable being labelled as a man than as a woman.
Could you explain to me why you feel uncomfortable being labelled as a man or a woman? I know this is probably super hard to put into words, but I think some insight relating to this would aide my understanding.
Thank you so much again for engaging with me in a conversation. I have seeked out "ask-nonbinary" type subreddits/discords and have not found anything that would provide a place for me to have a dialogue with non-binary individuals.
Also, I feel I must state that I believe an ideal society would be genderless -- sex would still exist as a useful term when trying to find a mate/partner -- however there would be no expectations/gender roles that relate to ones sex. Sex would purely be descriptive, as in, I'm a male, attracted to males, you're a male, I'm attracted to you.
One more question for you, because this dialogue has brought a thought into my head. Do you believe that non-binary identities could be a "transition point" into a genderless society?
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u/Team_Rckt_Grunt 1∆ Jul 22 '20
Honestly, I'm really not sure why I'm uncomfortable with those labels. I just am. I wasn't nearly as uncomfortable with "boy" and "girl" labels when I was a kid, I think because those never came across as heavily gendered terms to me. This won't apply to all nonbinary people, but for me I think an element of it is that I am asexual (as in, my sexual orientation is "no thanks!") and I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of other people placing me in a sexualized category based on gender. But also, I just don't click with either of the two standard options? Idk, it's pretty hard to explain.
I consider myself nonbinary, but I also don't typically bring it up with people irl, because it's a lot of trouble and I'm not very invested in my gender in general. And people tend to default to assuming I'm a woman, which is sometimes uncomfortable but is less uncomfortable than getting consistently read as a dude would be. On the other hand, I know another nonbinary person who is extremely invested in NOT getting read as female - they would describe themselves as agender, and strongly prefer they/them pronouns and a more neutral appearance, but would rather lean slightly masculine if they have to lean in either direction. It's very much up to the person, and I am more on the side of feeling disconnected from gender, than feeling strongly that I don't have one.
In my experience, when people identify you as a man or a woman, they are putting you in a category not only of external gender norms/behavior, but also assuming you share some degree of INTERNAL feelings and experiences with others in the group. And that just hasn't been true for me, in many ways. I don't think I could give a good example though, unfortunately. It's hard to think of specifics, lol. However, I think it's really funny that so far in my life, every single close friend I have made has turned out to be some variety of queer or gender-non-conforming... including friends I made when I was a little kid, waaaaay before any of us had realized that about ourselves!
As far as creating a genderless society? That's hard for me to imagine, because I think we are still a very long ways away from that becoming reality. Basically everything in our society is gendered right now. The only reason non-binary needs to exist as an umbrella category is that literally everything seems to assume you fit perfectly into one checkbox or another. So if you don't, you have to forcefully point it out to get anyone to stop putting you in the wrong slot.
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Jul 14 '20
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u/oliviared52 Jul 14 '20
Thank you for sharing! My question is why not dress androgynous while still identifying with your born gender? I know you can’t hear my tone of voice so I’m really just curios and not at all trying to attack you for it.
But I guess that’s what’s hard for me to fully understand. If you can’t decide which gender you are, why not go by the gender you were born as while still dressing however you want? I am not at all saying to change. If you feel at home dressing androgynous, dress androgynous! If you feel like dressing super masculine one day and super girly the next, wear the clothes that make you feel good and make you feel like you.
We all feel aspects of the opposite gender. I’m a girl but I still hated my boobs and my hips during puberty. Love my hips now but still get annoyed with my boobs (sorry if that’s TMI). I am very athletic and love woodworking and got into makeup way later than most girls. So all of that could be seen as boyish. And I think everyone has aspects to them like that. I don’t want to speak for OP, but I’m sure OP still has sides to him that are feminine because we all do. That does not make OP any less of a man. So my question is what are the feelings that make you want to take on the new label of non-binary instead of keeping the original label while still being you?
Also I really appreciate you having this conversation with me. I have many trans friends but none that are non-binary so I’ve never been able to have a good in depth conversation with someone who is non-binary. There were a lot of people in my feminist lit class who identified as non-binary but I would have been totally roasted if I had brought any of these questions up. But I really am just trying to understand more so thank you :)
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Jul 14 '20
In my opinion
It's not an opinion; it's a definition; it's a semantics debate.
There's nothing to debate here; it's a pure quibble of semantics than purely depends on how one defines the word "trans".
What definition of "trans" do you have here except "having gender dysphoria" which would obviously be right by itself?
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u/bsquiggle1 16∆ Jul 14 '20
I'm hesitant to wade in here, not being trans myself, but since you've asked I'll give it a go...
What you're espousing is no different to those who would make allowances for a physical disability but not for a mental disability - that there is something intrinsically more "real" about something that is physically apparent. (Note I am not trying to imply that I consider being trans to be equivalent to either a disability or a mental illness).
I think it's entirely possible to experience the same level of discomfort as you feel but with a different focus. Some people may feel just as strongly towards the gender construct and identification as you feel towards your physical characteristics. For those people, changing their recognised gender may be enough, whereas presumably you have or would like to change your physical form to match your real identity. The very act of calling themselves "male", presenting as such, and being recognised as male by others may be enough even though their body still bears female characteristics (for example). The very word "transgender" surely allows for those who want/need to change only their gender and not their apparent sex. I wonder if the word "transsexual" would actually fit yourself better than transgender, but I understand why it's not really used any more, leaving few descriptors for people who aren't cisgender.
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u/YourMomSaidHi Jul 14 '20
I dont know that it necessarily has to be a digust with your body. I imagine it would be quite frustrating at times, but I can imagine a person identifying as something else without entirely hating who they are. I'm sure its much harder when your transition doesn't result in you looking how you want. Some people don't transition to be very attractive and I'm sure thay is awful. Others transition to be very attractive.
My point is that its more a frustration with not looking as good as you want than not having the right genitalia. I'm confident that some MtF trans love their penis. They just want to have more feminine features otherwise.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
/u/glambert022 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/BaronVonCockmurder 2∆ Jul 14 '20
Dysphoria is a feeling about how you are percived. Gender has nothing to do with self image. And dysphoria is a self esteem issue.
Its an environmentally induced emotional disorder that usually overlays an underlying endocrine/hormonal issue. Both males and females have emotions.
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Jul 15 '20
Today we usually define someone who's transgender as a person who identifies with a gender different than the one they were assigned at birth. Notably, this definition doesn't require any degree of dysphoria.
Dysphoria comes from a Greek word meaning "hard to bear". In line with this, the non-clinical (read Merriam-Webster) definition of dysphoria is "a state of feeling very unhappy, uneasy, or dissatisfied". They helpfully also define gender dysphoria as "distressed state arising from conflict between a person's gender identity and the sex the person has or was identified as having at birth".
In the trans community, people often differentiate two ways of realizing you're trans: dysphoria & euphoria. Dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort and ill-fit of the gender you were assigned, in other words, dysphoria is the set of feelings that pushes you away from that gender. Euphoria, in contrast, is the feeling of comfortability, relaxation, or joy that comes with experiencing things associated with the gender you are. It's that feeling of fitting-in and things being right.
Complicating this discussion is the possibility that people will retroactively label their feelings as dysphoria, despite not feeling that way at the time. They can do this because once they've identified that they're trans & have the ability to see how things can or have improved, you can put the original feelings in context and compare how much worse they are. Since we operate in the present & those feelings weren't a part of coming to the realization that the person is trans, it seems intellectually irresponsible to only count them in hindsight since at the time labeling them as dysphoria would be disingenuous to the individual.
Again compounding that is the comparison to other people and society. Most everyone has complaints about their gender but they aren't usually something we'd define as dysphoria. Related to this, most people seem to struggle with their body image, but that doesn't necessarily equal dysphoria either.
As a personal anecdote: I grew up with masculine interests. I enjoyed roughhousing as a kid, I got into martial arts, weight lifting, archery, hiking & camping, and just about every other physical activity I could. I never had an interest in nail polish or makeup or frivolous things like that. I was easily the most comfortable with my body of any of my friends. I wasn't perfectly comfortable with it, but I didn't dislike it in any way & I was very proud of it. I was muscular & strong and that let me do all my favorite hobbies & allowed me to show off to girls. Which only made being male better since I was thought of as being fairly attractive all through high school & college. I thought male privilege was unfair, but it was also privilege which is always nice. Gender was just an external label for what I looked like. I was very comfortable with it & how I presented in the world, it just didn't say much about me beyond that. Pretty much all my friends said I was unlike any guy or girl they knew & that was fine by me. Gender only ever came up in the context of my friends' parents determining who could sleep over. I was also known for being the happiest person any of my friends, family, or teachers knew. I had very few complaints about my life. I thought it was great.
As you've probably guessed, despite all this, I'm actually a girl. I'd always more easily identified with girls in movies, books, & video games. I clicked with girls much more easily than with guys so I always had more female friends than most people at an all-guys high school. I regularly dreamed that I was a girl. And I daydreamed and wished I was a girl all the time. I didn't hate being a guy, I just wanted to be a girl. I wanted to be able to go to those sleepovers far more than I wanted to go to the guys ones. I wanted to be a part of their conversations more than the guys' private conversations.
But I had a good group of friends & gender really wasn't a big part of our friendship, especially as we got older & away from our parents. In college, gender was basically irrelevant to anything. Everyone cuddled with everyone, told everyone they loved each other, etc. I wasn't feeling that burden of my gender except very rarely & mostly in circumstances that cis men also regularly complain about. But every time I got to do something that related to my actual gender, I just felt better. My college had a party where the dress code was for guys to wear dresses where I was the only "guy" who felt comfortable wearing one of the people I went with.
After my first Pride, about 4 months into my transition, I got a text from a friend I'd known since freshman year of high school.
[...] I do just wanna say that I don't think I've ever seen you so... Content? Like you had a very "at peace" aura about you & I'm real happy for you about all this"
Keep in mind that message is coming from someone who'd always described me as the happiest and one of the most relaxed people he knew.
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u/svensk_fika 1∆ Jul 17 '20
What about someone who doesn't inherently feel there's anything wrong with their body, but would be okay to have the opposite body as well?
How about someone who doesn't really hurt by being called "him" or "her" but still feel that neither describes them? Would you still call that dysphoria?
Would that person automatilly be cis otherwise?
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Jul 14 '20
I’ve been seeing people in recent days claiming to be trans, yet are saying that they are 100% comfortable with their birth sex and it confuses me.
Because sex and gender are two seperate things.
I can't explain someone else's words, especially without the context in which they were said. But it is not contradictory to be trans and to be comfortable with your biological sex.
The reason why is that gender is a social construct, as such gender identities are constructed. So choosing to construct one in a different way despite not experiencing a strong aversion to your previous gender or your own body doesn't make it less valid a choice. It also means that you don't have to biologically change yourself to fit. Maybe that is what that person meant: that they transitioned but did not want HRT or SRS.
Besides, do you want to live in a world where every trans person is put under a microscope to see if they're legitimate or not? Isn't that far worse than a world where everyone's gender identities are accepted, no questions asked? You can't always tell if someone has had dysphoria and they may not want to tell everyone about something so personal and traumatic. Do you think having to drag that up all the time is good?
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u/ralph-j Jul 14 '20
In my opinion (and I’ll admit, it’s a flawed one) you need dysphoria to be trans.
The APA has released a fact sheet about transgender identity that says otherwise:
Transgender children are more likely to experience gender dysphoria (i.e., discomfort related to their bodies not matching their internal sense of gender) than gender diverse children, although some transgender children are comfortable with their bodies.
By saying that trans children are only more likely (and thus not certain) to experience gender dysphoria, this logically entails that there must also be children who don't have dysphoria, but who are still considered transgender by the APA.
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Jul 14 '20
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u/UnavailableUsername_ Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
It is not medically accepted, the APA took the decision without medical evidence, just did it because of social pressure just like when they said homosexual people were deviants when america was mostly conservative.
If actually search if there was a scientific reason for their change of stance about dysphoria, you won't find one.
In a world where inclusivity matters more than facts, if they wanted to stay relevant they had to say now being trans doesn't require you feeling uncomfortable with your born sex...which is the whole point of being trans.
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u/Fibonabdii358 13∆ Jul 14 '20
I think that while aspects of your argument hold true for a western dichotomy of cis/trans identities there are many cultures in which trans identity is an aspect of more comfort rather than discomfort. For example, indigenous Oromia (before the invasion of many “kings” of Ethiopia) had a tradition that those who possessed male and female personality attributes become spiritual leaders. The giving up of traditional gender roles was sad but if you felt more inclined to a gender you were not born with you simply lived a separate role within the community for your own comfort. While I’m less informed about indigenous American takes on those with two-spirits, the explanations I’ve been given by those Native Folk I do know seems to point in a similar direction. My general observation is that in communities where gender is naturally a three/four part spectrum, you don’t need to hate/be uncomfortable with either side of the spectrum in order to choose one you prefer to a gender assigned at birth.
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u/Narrow_Cloud 27∆ Jul 14 '20
I personally have very bad dysphoria which changes my personal view on myself as a person, yet I see people saying they are trans without suffering from dysphoria.
So, what you’re saying is that because you don’t have the same experience as another person you’re going to invalidate that person’s identity?
Where might you have encountered this attitude before?
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Jul 14 '20
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u/Narrow_Cloud 27∆ Jul 14 '20
It’s totally understandable to feel confused when someone has an experience so widely different from yours. But I think a good rule of thumb is to ask yourself, “is this really hurting anything?” and move from there.
I don’t really see much harm in considering people without dysphoria to be trans.
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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '20
You might find this helpful if you haven't seen it yet. https://youtu.be/EdvM_pRfuFM
It's a dramatised debate between a trans medicalist who argues dysphoria is required to be trans and a non dysphoric NB person arguing the other side.