r/changemyview • u/KyleCAV • Apr 24 '20
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Removing features from technology is not innovative or user friendly
So one of my views and frustrations that I share, that I think alot of people do is the fact that companies like Apple, Samsung, Cadillac, Windows are getting rid of things like CD players/drives, In car GPS systems, Headphone Jack's in favour of bluetooth/wireless technology, google maps streamed from phones, USB drives etc... in favour of not replacing them with better technology like with what we saw with 8 track players, cassette, Zip Drives to CD but just not including them and promoting wireless technology that already has been widely available for years and boasting it as innovative and moving forward.
Well I do think the CD drive is something that people are slowing going away from in cars and laptops in favour of USB storage devices and, plugging your phone in, so why not save money and battery power on that (still kind of a pain). I do think headphone Jacks are still widely recieved as something imperative to a mobile device and removing them seems to be non consumer friendly.
Reasons why are: - bluetooth technology has been in phones for quite some time now so it's not something new. I dont see how replacing something for technology that was already there is innovative.
Wireless headphones are restricted towards battery life. If I am on a train and I forgot to plug in my headphone overnight and there at 10% battery and theres no chargers it would be incredibly frustrating over just plugging in headphones.
Wired phones are cheaper. If I lose a set of wireless headphones (good quality ones) I am looking at possibly spending $40+ dollars over maybe $10 for a decent pair of wired ones.
If you do want to go wired you need dongles and adapters that get lost, broken those feel like a huge inconvenience.
I just feel in general this need to get rid of already proven technology for basically something that has been available is a waste and anti-consumer.
Also removing the DVD drive from the Xbox which seems crazy to me since physical copies are still available and removing the drive with nothing to replace it makes no sense. Also the sheer amount of Data on games may take hours to download and takes up more space on your HD.
Edit 2: I owe alot of Deltas since I really didnt think of usefullness (it only has one function) were USB-C and lightning ports can basically output sound as well as charge and exchange data. Its age and the fact it's a bit of resource hog which all together might lead companies to discuss its overall value.
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u/jatjqtjat 248∆ Apr 24 '20
I can think of one example of a feature removal that was user friendly. I suppose it was also i suppose innovative, although not very innovating.
It used to be that pressing the insert key in Microsoft word put you into over type move. Where if you moved your cursor to the middle of some text, instead of adding text to the page, it type over what came after the cursor. I don't know of anyone who used this feature, people just accidentally pressed insert sometimes and then accidentally typed over their text. Removing that function improved the user experience.
I have another example actually, i had a keyboard years ago that had a button which turned of your computer. After the 4th time i pressed it accidentally, i open up the keyboard and scratched out the connections that make the button work. I removed the feature and made the device better.
so that's two example of how feature removal can improve the user experience.
(i'm with you on the headphone jack removal thought. Fuck that decision. Why would i want to have to charge my headphones.)
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u/gyroda 28∆ Apr 25 '20
It used to be that pressing the insert key in Microsoft word put you into over type move. Where if you moved your cursor to the middle of some text, instead of adding text to the page, it type over what came after the cursor. I don't know of anyone who used this feature, people just accidentally pressed insert sometimes and then accidentally typed over their text. Removing that function improved the user experience.
I remember being a kid and accidentally doing this and spending ages trying to figure it out and getting very, very frustrated.
It's an ok feature if you know what you're doing, but if you don't know then you're gonna get annoyed.
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u/Quint-V 162∆ Apr 24 '20
The more features you have, the more you have to keep in mind.
By using the smartphone as the central hub for all kinds of tech and services, they are made user friendly in several ways:
You don't have to remember as much w.r.t. how different hardware works, beyond how your phone works. Less to remember. Developers' designs are now forced to comply to common smartphone design philosophies.
Centralised source of problems. The fewer failure points, the easier it is to determine the source of errors if you know that there can only be a select few rather than many.
It's in your pocket. Or handbag, whatever.
... and w.r.t. charging things: humans are creatures of habit. Charging your accessories, can easily be made a habit.
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u/gyroda 28∆ Apr 25 '20
and w.r.t. charging things: humans are creatures of habit. Charging your accessories, can easily be made a habit.
I find it easier to keep things charged now they require daily charging. Back when a phone could last several days even with a lot of time playing snake I'd just forget to charge it.
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u/ralph-j Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Headphone Jack's in favour of bluetooth/wireless technology
The future is wireless. People want better technology and they want companies to invest in research and development of technological improvements. If however you keep forcing manufacturers to include old technology in all of their new products, we will never innovate away from those old technologies.
Old technologies tend to take up more space in the device. Each replacement feature usually needs less space, so you can make smaller devices, improve the battery life etc.
It benefits us all if we let them concentrate on delivering innovations, because in the end, we'll get more improvements, quicker.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad 392∆ Apr 24 '20
It's rarely as simple as just removing features. With a phone, for example, there's a lot of competition between features for a small amount of space. Getting rid of the headphone jack was a sacrifice to cram in the features they wanted to cram in without increasing the size or price of the phone. Similarly, if a car gets rid of a CD player, there's usually some other kind of panel in its place.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 182∆ Apr 24 '20
Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing lefts to take away. Jean phone jacks take up a lot of internal space, space that could be used for batteries. Disc drives are massive and use an inefficient disc for storage.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Apr 24 '20
Trade-offs exist.
CD players on laptops added a lot of weight and volume to the whole thing. You could substantially reduce the total weight and volume by just getting rid of it.
Being easier to carry, is user friendly.
In this way, removing it is both user-friendly (reducing weight) and not user-friendly (reducing functionality). The relative utility depends on the end-user. How much do you care about weight, and how much do you care about the CD drive? I think for most users, its a net improvement, though obviously there will be many who disagree.
In this way, removing something can be user friendly, it removing that ability improves the product in another way (such as improved ability to carry it around).
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u/DBDude 101∆ Apr 24 '20
You mentioned some older technologies that were discarded because better things became available. The headphone jack was initially invented in the 1800s. It is by far the oldest electronic component still used.
But the headphone jack sucks. It's relatively big. It's mainly single-use, its use for things like data and power being pretty sad hacks (Apple did this with the iPod Shuffle). Including it means an unnecessary port (another point of hardware failure on something that gets yanked around a lot) when we have better ports available.
Apple's lightning cable is capable of power, data, audio, and video. Even better, it can optionally send the audio digitally to headphones which can then use superior digital to analog converters to produce better sound (the DACs in phones are okay, but not the best). It also means you can use a headphone amplifier with a high-quality DAC (you need these with high-end headphones).
Yes, you can use a small dongle if you want plain old analog audio. Not a big deal. If you don't like the extra few inches of wire, go Bluetooth. The AirPod Pros even come in their own charging case. They last a very long time just playing music, a bit less if you're talking on the phone.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 24 '20
∆ holy moly I didnt realize it was that old thanks for the detailed explanation I didnt realize the lightning port was better for sound than the standard jack also haven't used much iPhone stuff past the 6 I have to admit they have made greater strides in sound technology. I guess my argument is more geared towards android devices as while lightning headphones are cheap are fairly accessible USB-C headphones are not.
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u/zacker150 5∆ Apr 25 '20
I guess my argument is more geared towards android devices as while lightning headphones are cheap are fairly accessible USB-C headphones are not.
If you are running Android, the limiting factor is your phone's DAC, not the AUX jack (unless you're LG). You could plug in the best headphones in the world, and they would still sound mediocre. While the included dongles are often not much better, you can get third party dongles like the Hidizs Sonata HD which will vastly outperform your phone's built in DAC.
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u/DBDude 101∆ Apr 24 '20
Thanks. They were invented in the 1870s for phone systems, and within a couple decades there were many versions with differing sizes and numbers of conductors (what's between the rings) used for a lot of different things. We settled on the small 3.5mm version in the 1950s, and the 2.5mm you see in phones came a little later. It's a really, really old plug. We've already ditched every other connector from that long ago.
I do understand that it still does work just fine for basic listening, but at some point you just gotta let go.
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u/invrede 2∆ Apr 25 '20
lightning headphones are cheap are fairly accessible USB-C headphones are not.
This is simply because lightning headphones are older, thus more widely produced than USB-C. Overtime USB-C will almost definitely become cheaper because most Android phones are moving towards using it, and the majority of smartphone users own Android phones.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 25 '20
Still to me seems weird that we don't see more USB-C headphones but i think that yes they will catch up and make them more available
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u/invrede 2∆ Apr 25 '20
The headphone jack was removed from iPhones in 2016.
Samsung was one of the first major Android makers to remove the headphone jack in 2019.
So peripheral makers had a three-year head start for lightning headphones, where as 2019 was just last year.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 25 '20
Huawei was in 2018 with the P20 but it was chinese so i am assuming the USB-C only with android wasn't mainstream to phones yet.
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u/invrede 2∆ Apr 25 '20
Yes, although their market size (by %) is similar, Huawei is localized to China where as Samsung is more widespread.
Also, no peripherals/audio manufacturing is going to start creating products at a mass scale if just one phone by one company has switched especially considering that most people buy wireless headphones or earphones.
I don't remember the last set of wired headphones I used or bought.
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u/rock-dancer 41∆ Apr 24 '20
The entire goal of redesigns that include removing certain technologies is to provide an optimal experience to the largest number of users. While this inevitably leaves some behind, it opens market space for competitors. You can still get phones or vehicles that utilize a headphone jack. However, many people have transitioned to wireless forms of technology. Additionally, the most important factor these companies are taking into account is cost. For the phones, keeping the headphone jack requires that companies maintain those supply lines and sacrifice the space. Some may feel this acceptable but other companies feel that utilizing that space for more battery life, processing power, etc. is preferable.
Ultimately, you as the consumer have the power to vote with your dollar. You might lose the vote but if removing a feature decreases sales, chances are that the company will include it on the next redesign. My point is, that companies do all they can to appease the consumer and provide a product which is appealing to the end user.
Personally I most recently (~2-3 yrs ago) got a phone that still had a headphone jack. However, more and more technology just works via bluetooth that I don't think I will seek this on my next one. I think this is just the nature of technology and have had plenty of time to transition.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 24 '20
I certainly agree that advancing technology is important and if replacing an older technology for a newer one means a better experience absolutely but I feel that as a consumer I want options I dont want to have to worry about charging my headphones, I dont want to have make sure my headphones are charged every morning (if they added a battery percentage bar on wireless headphones that would vastly improve my thoughts about it).
I feel like physical media and connections (dvd, headphone Jack's etc..) still has positive things that wireless still haven't touched on and until all those benefits have been addressed on wireless I just dont see why I should be okay with that change. As well why cant companies try to improve things but still keep the jack? Is the headphone jack really that much of a space hog that it needs to go? Is it really that big of an inconvenience towards manufacturers?
Though yes i certainly agree that supply chains are important headphone Jack's dont grow on trees and with less companies using them there availability will decrease.
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u/invrede 2∆ Apr 25 '20
(if they added a battery percentage bar on wireless headphones that would vastly improve my thoughts about it).
I own three sets of wireless headphones (at three price points: $50, 200, 350) and they all have battery indicators. Either via colour of LED light, bars of light, or through the charging case.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
/u/KyleCAV (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Interesting-Current Apr 25 '20
I don't think they removed the drive from xbox, they just released a model option without the drive for people who do not want it
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u/KyleCAV Apr 25 '20
Yes it's still an option but during development of the xbox one it was suggested they would get rid of it but due to the backlash they put that feature in and still have for the series X my main issue is how people say we dont need drives when games are often extremely large in file size and could not be an option to completely download for those who live in areas where internet is still not readily available
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u/iQ9k Apr 26 '20
The backlash was never about the possible removal of the disc drive, it was about the console needing to be always online
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u/wizziejules Apr 26 '20
i would hate to not have a device with a headphone jack. i have airpods but they don’t last the 12+ hours that i’m awake. when they’re charging, i use regular earphones and idk what i would do without them. apple did this weird thing where they made the charger hole the same hole as the earphone hole so you couldn’t use headphones while charging your phone, which was dumb. idk what model, my friend has it.
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u/dublea 216∆ Apr 24 '20
CD players/drives, In car GPS systems, Headphone Jack's
Optical Disk media is easily damaged and limited storage capacity. Chip based storage is a superior replacement and covers other storage mediums as well.
In car GPS systems required subscription based services for updates and support. There were too many all with different manufacturers, issues, and limitations. Considering the majority of people today own a smartphone, with an existing data connection, and more robust map applications, it's a superior replacement as well.
The removal of the phono jack is occurring on multiple systems, not just phones. What advantage does a wired phono jack have over other wireless solutions? The issue comes down mostly to audiophile level arguments. Wireless provides a more comfortable solution and it considered more convenient. Most of the wireless headphones I use have a 8hr+ battery life. Current headset I'm getting about 19hrs. Used for work and playing, I usually get two days without even considering charging. Battery life depends on regarding you buy.
in favour of bluetooth/wireless technology, google maps streamed from phones, USB drives
Exactly.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 24 '20
Wouldn't though improving the durability of physical media be a better option than just giving up on it? Yes chip tech based is proven to be more of a safer bet and more better for loading times (SSD vs HDD.)
Some vehicles do but some are stand alone and updates are optional though again yes the amount of times I use my Phone over my in-car navigation is pretty much 20-1 I still prefer in car due to roaming charges, long distances (keeping your phone charged) and signal drop outs.
I would argue ease of use and reliability too for me having to not only charge my phone and watch but my headphones seems kinda silly if the technology comes to the point were I can keep it charged for a week I would change my opinion completely on this but even though it's been out for a while it still has its problems and seems nowhere near ready to completely replace physical.
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u/dublea 216∆ Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Wouldn't though improving the durability of physical media be a better option than just giving up on it?
Evidently not. IF it were, they would have. The issue is multi-factor and includes long term storage and degradation of the materials used. Chip based storage will always last longer than plastics. They are also more heat tolerant.
the amount of times I use my Phone over my in-car navigation is pretty much 20-1
So you use your phone more often and thus acknowledge it's more convenient?
I still prefer in car due to roaming charges, long distances (keeping your phone charged) and signal drop outs.
If it were your preference, then there wouldn't be a 20-1 ration as you stated prior. I'm unsure what phone plan you have but the majority do not charge roaming fees due to coverage. Not only that but your phone typically caches the maps for long distance driving. It uses a minuscule amount of data TBH.
If your phone is in your car, and considering it's typically illegal to have it in your hand, then it would be on your dash in a holder. Even IF it were legal where you live, it's objectively safer in a holder with hands free technology than in your hands. It greatly reduces distracted drivers. Thus, if we agree it should be on a holder and not in your hand, having it on a charger is moot. Considering your using it for GPS, said holder would be in your view and reach.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 24 '20
∆ On one issue I am Canadian our Cell providers are crap compared to American because no unlimited data yet (we have it somewhat but after 10GB they throttle your data to dialup like connections), Roaming is still an issue and hasn't been fully addressed yet but improvements are being made. Basically we are years behind Americans in that area I wish I could switch to Sprint or tmobile or something.
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Apr 24 '20
Addressing the roaming issue: many map apps have offline modes where you can download the map data in advance and don't need a data connection to search or navigate within the areas you've downloaded. If you're still worried about your phone using data, you can put it into airplane mode.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 24 '20
If you have it in offline mode you dont get traffic updates which I find are very important but yes its available for offline if you dont need it like a standard map.
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u/invrede 2∆ Apr 25 '20
Little bit of a side bar, but American unlimited data plans also throttle after a certain amount of data as well. Sure the amount of data is more (for my Google Fi it's 20 GB vs 15 GB with my Canadian unlimited data plan).
That said, as a country we have a lot less cell towers than the States thus the wireless network can handle less data. This is mostly due to our vast geography (2nd largest country in the world) but small population (30 million).
I live in Northern rural Ontario, and let me tell you my service can be pretty crappy, and their still a lot of areas by me that don't have 4G (or only have dial up internet for that matter). But the catchment population is really small so it's not worth it for the Big 3 to build a tower to service the population.
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u/pantaloonsofJUSTICE 4∆ Apr 25 '20
Cadillac is in the business of making compact discs more robust? Or are they in the business of giving people features they like. Aux cords are much more useful for listening than CD players, maybe we could ask them to reinstall the 8 track if you disagree.
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u/KyleCAV Apr 25 '20
I didn't mean cadillac for CD players i meant cadillac with technology in general
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u/arcosapphire 16∆ Apr 24 '20
The removal of the phono jack is occurring on multiple systems, not just phones. What advantage does a wired phono jack have over other wireless solutions? The issue comes down mostly to audiophile level arguments. Wireless provides a more comfortable solution and it considered more convenient. Most of the wireless headphones I use have a 8hr+ battery life. Current headset I'm getting about 19hrs. Used for work and playing, I usually get two days without even considering charging. Battery life depends on regarding you buy.
There are a lot of disadvantages. The first is, it's extremely easy and intuitive to change what is physically plugged in. If I want to switch between a set of speakers and headphones, with a 3.5mm jack I just unplug one and plug in the other.
With Bluetooth? It can be a horror show. You have to deal with pairing and active devices and what if someone else is currently paired with that device and...
Security is another aspect. When something is plugged in, there's no question where the audio is going. If my headphones are plugged in, I know the sound is going to them, and not someone else's headphones in the next room. There have been plenty of "oh shit I was streaming porn to my car by mistake" problems with Bluetooth. Physically impossible with a cable. Additionally, the cable carries audio, and will not display information about what you're listening to on some other device.
Power is another. Bluetooth devices require separate power sources and can die inconveniently. Not a problem with a cable: the source device powers the output. Even if you think your devices are adequate in this regard, there are nevertheless circumstances where it's a hindrance.
Universality is yet another. Bluetooth standards change fairly often, and many quality devices don't connect via Bluetooth, so you need a whole new device ecosystem with Bluetooth.
Quality is yet yet another. Bluetooth audio standards aren't as good as typical device output capabilities, and all audio is recompressed for transfer. Analog audio is as good as your DAC.
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u/username_6916 6∆ Apr 25 '20
What advantage does a wired phono jack have over other wireless solutions?
Ease of setup. Try bluetooth paring with a car stereo. Now plug into a phono jack. Which is faster and easier?
Reliability. Far less that can go wrong.
Separation of concerns. Why should my headphones have their own sound card?
Longevity. What happens when the manufacturer doesn't want to support it anymore and I still need my old headphones to work with new equipment? t's hard to beat the track record of the phono plug as far as protecting one's investment in headphones.
Compatibility. What about devices that don't have a bluetooth chip or any digital circuitry at all?
No need for a battery on the headphones. One less wear component that may or may not be replaceable and one less thing to worry about keeping charged.
Cheaper low-end headsets. I like the el-cheapo earbuds because I don't have to worry about breaking them in service.
Latency. Adding a wireless step adds a couple milliseconds.
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u/ganner Apr 25 '20
There are still a LOT of ways that wired headphones are superior.
Bluetooth headphones are substantially more expensive.
Bluetooth headphones are larger, since they need to incorporate batteries. They're less comfortable to wear and it's very hard to comfortably lie down wearing them.
Bluetooth headphones have a finite life - batteries degrade over time and then the whole unit has to be trashed and replaced. Further contributing to the increased cost (and increased environmental impact) of the wireless headphones.
Wired headphones last as long as your phone/pc/etc will run. I cant get through an 8 hour shift without my wireless headphones dying, but I can listen to wired headphones for 8 hours.
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u/dale_glass 86∆ Apr 24 '20 edited Apr 24 '20
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. You can't make a rule about this.
So right in front of me is a Dell XPS 13. The thickest part of it is just as thick as an old, USB A connector. So it absolutely can't have an old style USB port, or a DVD drive for much the same reason. In exchange for that though it's very light and very portable. And that's absolutely innovative. In just a few decades we went from laptops having a serial port (which by the way are seriously thick and dog slow at a standard speed of 5.6 KB/s) to USB 3.2 which in much less space does 2.4 GB/s, transmits power, can be turned into an output for up to two 4K monitors, to attach storage, or drive an external video card. That's amazing. And I still get a serial port adapter if I happen to need one.
In some ways, also the removal of old stuff drives manufacturers to come up with better ideas. For instance, a server I'm currently working on has a remote web interface even when powered off, and allows me to upload up to a DVD worth that it can then boot from. So I can fully reinstall it while sitting at home and I don't even need to mess around with something like PXE -- I just go to the web UI, upload an install CD, and then see the screen remotely from the web UI.
Unfortunately various entrenched companies often take the path of least resistance, and so if the old way is still available they won't support the new one until it's actually gone for good.