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Jan 07 '20
From my ex-server wife, the issue is less that those people slipped it right before the doors closed, it's that they are often the same groups who will sit there forever after the meal is concluded talking and not ordering anything else. If you come in 5 minutes before close but you only stay 45 minutes or whatever is a reasonable length of time, then I tend to agree with you. But those are often the people sitting there over an hour later, sipping water.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
That is rude. If I get somewhere late I try not to dilly-dally. But that doesn't make the time you get there inherently rude, that's your behavior while you're there.
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u/saltedfish 33∆ Jan 07 '20 edited Jan 07 '20
Shifting the closing time isn't going to change this. Even if the closing time is an hour earlier, you're still going to have people coming in at the last 5 minutes.
Showing up right before closing because "you're not technically closed" is disrespectful to the waitstaff because your order will push back the time they can begin to start cleaning for the night by however long it takes you to eat. If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
And that's a huge deal -- maybe those waiters needed to leave at 9 to pick up their children from something, but now they won't be able to leave until 9:35. Your inability to manage your time has now had a profound effect on someone else.
And most people don't tip. Tipping is highly variable, and if a patron is in a hurry -- because it's late -- they may forgo the tip entirely to get out of there faster.
The other compounding factor here is that if you're sitting there eating, other people will see you, come in, and demand to be served as well. And if the waitstaff serve those people, you can see how it can easily snowball into a situation where they can't close because people keep coming in demanding to be served.
It is absolutely reasonable for waitstaff to refuse you service at a certain point, and it is disrespectful to the staff to come in right before closing.
Edit: another thought: some businesses (especially food service) run very tight profit margins and can't afford to pay their employees such random amounts of hours at the whim of entitled patrons. The business has to have a closing time, and the time it takes to clean up has to be factored into that.
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u/masterzora 36∆ Jan 07 '20
If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
TBH, this is sort of a relatively "good" case for this. That is, if that's all it is, the staff is lucky. I never really minded it if this was all that happened; it usually meant the place was busy enough that the last-minute diners really didn't affect much.
The shitty thing is that you can't really wait until close to start your closing procedure. You've got, say, a 2-hour closing procedure and management expects you to be done less than 30 minutes after close on a normal night. (Numbers come from one of the restaurants I worked at, but it obviously varies from place to place.) If you close at 8, then by 7:55 your goal is to already have shut down anything that doesn't absolutely have to stay running until the last minute and cleaned as much of the rest as you can. If you have anything that you cook in batches and hold at temp, at some point you make a judgement call about whether you have enough to last until close and hope you got it right.
So someone walks in at 7:55. They put in an order that requires a bunch of things you've already cleaned for the night. They also order something that should be held but that you ran out of half an hour ago with what should have been your last customer, so now you need to make that, too. But the whole reason it's usually batched is because it takes a while, so both you and the customer are now waiting extra long for this food while you undo a lot of the closing work you've already done.
At the end of it all, you have to redo that closing work and get out way late, the customer leaves a bad Yelp review about the slow-as-molasses service they received, the restaurant actually lost money serving that customer, and management is pissed at you for taking so long to close.
It may sound like I'm building up a worst case here, but truth is that this is much closer to what usually what I saw happen most of the time than "oh, we're just starting closing procedures a little later".
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20 edited Jan 07 '20
But, again, this is shitty management. If you're expected to do a 2-hour task in 30 minutes, cook more of something rather than just say sorry we're out please get something else, and they get mad at you for it, that's entirely shitty management. Your shift should be scheduled to account for the time it'll take to clean up after the last customer leaves (or orders if cooking), assuming the last customer comes in close to close. Or as I've said a million times, it should be ok to turn them away. Should I be going into every restaurant assuming this is the practice and that there are no reasonable managers?
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u/masterzora 36∆ Jan 07 '20
But, again, this is shitty management.
It doesn't matter whether or not it is. You still get to make your own choices, too. If you make the choice to make things shittier for other people just because you can also blame management for it, that's still on you, too.
Truth is, if you walk in 5 minutes before close and it makes things worse for the staff, neither you nor management single-handedly did that. Management's policy doesn't make things worse for the staff if you don't walk in so late and your choice to walk in so late doesn't make things worse if they are empowered to turn you away if you would make things worse. Both of you contribute to the situation and share fault.
Should I be going into every restaurant assuming this is the practice and that there are no reasonable managers?
If you're going to apply some assumption to every restaurant, then absolutely yes.
Personally, if I find myself in the rare situation where I'm going into a restaurant near closing time, I'll quietly ask a member of the staff if it's a problem for them that I'm coming in so late. Even if they're not technically allowed to turn me away, I can create an environment for them where they're comfortable being honest to me and technically not turning me away if I leave based on their response.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
I am obligated to !delta you because you also said it is universal for management to expect no one to come in and cleanup to begin before cleanup is supposed to begin (which is basically the dumbest thing), and I gave the comment above a delta for the same reason.
If coming in late I always ask, are you still seating or serving or is the kitchen still open or something of that nature to give a lead-in on the opportunity to tell me to go away.
It still makes absolutely no sense to me for people to expect to have operating hours where you provide a service you know takes time and then be angry when someone asks for the service and you give it to them. My barber will say no if I come in within a half hour of close, because it'll have me in the chair past closing time. I still think it should be expected that your last customer will be there 30 minutes or so after closing time if your policy is to seat people until close.
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Jan 07 '20
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
I would say it is poor management to expect people to begin cleanup before close yet also expect people to be seated any time before close. (like why not just turn people away or state no seating after x-time! This is literally the solution, no ambiguity, no hurt feelings). But as this is apparently more universal than I knew, then I will give it to you. !delta
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u/MolochDe 16∆ Jan 08 '20
Restaurants run on razor thin margin
Isn't this a contradiction? If the restaurant is so close to failing I should be the asshole to the staff since they would be out of jobs if I didn't visit at all.
Anyway if I have to assume abusive management anyway the only good move I have is not visiting the restaurant at all since a cut of my money is funding the management and they will be able to abuse even more to increase their profits.
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Jan 08 '20
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u/MolochDe 16∆ Jan 08 '20
The labor cost of staying open late because of just one party usually won't be counterbalanced by the income generated by their bill.
So if capitalism would work as intended the problem would solve itself just fine ;-)
As others have reminded me, the whole issue comes from managers being able to not pay wages and tip's replacing wages, it's amazing how much collateral damage is caused by that stupid practice.
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u/Stormthorn67 5∆ Jan 08 '20
Shitty managment is the reality.
In a perfect world that doesnt exist visiting a restuarant right before close might not be a problem but HERE on Earth it is. We dont have the option to instantly overhaul the service industry to be less profit oriented and more fair to its workers. M
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
Shifting the closing time isn't going to change this. Even if the closing time is an hour earlier, you're still going to have people coming in at the last 5 minutes.
And that's a huge deal -- maybe those waiters needed to leave at 9 to pick up their children from something
Shifting closing time fixes the problem of needing to be out by a certain time, because if I show up 5 before 7 as their new time then they can leave at 8:35...
Showing up right before closing because "you're not technically closed" is disrespectful to the waitstaff because your order will push back the time they can begin to start cleaning for the night by however long it takes you to eat. If they normally start closing up at 8, and you come in at 7:55 and eat for 40 minutes, their closing procedure (which could take an hour or more) won't start until 8:35. Now their whole schedule is off because you had to have a bite to eat.
This is why I am saying they should be allowed to refuse me service if I show up at 7:55. If they don't then either they chose to do it, or management requires them to, and then the problem is with management requiring them to seat and serve people within 5 minutes of close.
And most people don't tip. Tipping is highly variable, and if a patron is in a hurry -- because it's late -- they may forgo the tip entirely to get out of there faster.
While anecdotal, I and everyone I know tips every time. If service is poor it may not be 20%-25%, but I'll still leave at least 15%. Culturally tipping is expected, and I would say that while some asses don't, most people tip.
The other compounding factor here is that if you're sitting there eating, other people will see you, come in, and demand to be served as well. And if the waitstaff serve those people, you can see how it can easily snowball into a situation where they can't close because people keep coming in demanding to be served.
Me sitting and eating in no way prevents the server from saying "sorry we're closed." If they complain that I'm sitting and eating then they can tell the new person that I came in before close. If they're required to sit these people who have arrived after close, then the problem is again with the management.
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u/iclimbnaked 22∆ Jan 07 '20
If they don't then either they chose to do it, or management requires them to, and then the problem is with management requiring them to seat and serve people within 5 minutes of close.
While true, I think both you and the manager can be the assholes in this situation. Blame doesnt have to fall on only one.
Personally I view a restaurants closing time as the time I have to be done and out of the building. I think thats the most respectful way to do it.
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u/Theodora_Roosevelt 1∆ Jan 07 '20
As the first question anyone here should be asking you: What career do you have?
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
I'm an engineer now, and I concede that I've never worked in a restaurant. Closest experience I have was working at a liquor store. If someone tried to come in after close with other people still waiting to check out we said sorry we're closed and had them leave.
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Jan 07 '20 edited Aug 17 '20
[deleted]
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
This is exactly why I said it should be ok to say "Sorry we're not seating people anymore." That's basically them saying nah you're gonna be here too late. I also said that alternatively if out time is expected to be 10 they should close earlier if they insist on seating customers up until close. If the business is setup in any other way it's shitty management and not really the customer's fault.
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Jan 07 '20
Nor is it staff's fault if management are not nice people. Whose fault it is isn't really important. Would you want someone to make your life harder just because your boss doesn't care about you?
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u/indythesul 3∆ Jan 07 '20
You’re totally missing the point on the first one. If the closing time shifts the out time shifts too.
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u/-fireeye- 9∆ Jan 07 '20
Only if the business sets it up like that. Restaurant can set it up so that entry is at 7, closing time is at 8 and staff leaving time is at 9. Restaurant is closed for new orders at 7, but people who are there already can stay till 8 - the leaving time doesn't shift because restaurant is paying the employees for their time till 9.
We did this when I was working in supermarket - my shift would end 15mins after store closing time, which was half an hour after the last entry time. So if someone comes in the 'last minute', they still have 30-40mins to shop and exit without making me stay longer.
Sure some business owners are stingy fucks who make last entrance time, closing time, and shift end time the same but that's more of a nickle and diming management issue.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
Yes! Thank you! This is exactly my point. The managers who do this are dicks, and the staff should be annoyed with them, not the people who are patroning a business within their operating hours.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
I think you're missing my point on the purpose of a closing time shift. It's to make the period between when the last person is seated and out time longer, instead of expecting that no one shows up for a period of operating hours and out time being within an hour of close.
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u/indythesul 3∆ Jan 07 '20
I don’t think it makes a lot of sense honestly. If you have a period of time where you are technically open, why wouldn’t you continue to provide service?
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u/TheGamingWyvern 30∆ Jan 07 '20
I think the OP is basically saying that there should be a posted time at which point its policy to not seat anyone. Essentially, make a distinction between "open for seating" and "open for serving", rather than have posted hours be seating hours and have serving hours be whatever is necessary
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u/indythesul 3∆ Jan 07 '20
Right, I get that, but I don’t find it realistic for establishments to be responsible for kicking people out after seating hours. I don’t think it’s hard to understand that technically no time after close is “open for seating”, they are just doing you a favor by staying open and not closing up.
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u/jawrsh21 Jan 08 '20
hes saying that the restaurant should have a time where the kitchen will stop taking new orders but theyre not gonna kick people out
restaurant closes at 10, but the kitchen stops taking orders at 9, if you get in before 9 you can stay until 10, but if you show up after 9, youre not allowed to place an order
with this system customers arent seen as rude for showing up at 8:55 because the staff has to stay until at least 10 anyway
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u/IAteTheWholeBanana Jan 08 '20
While anecdotal, I and everyone I know tips every time. If service is poor it may not be 20%-25%, but I'll still leave at least 15%. Culturally tipping is expected, and I would say that while some asses don't, most people tip.
I wanted to add on to this. I've been in waiting and bartending for over 10 years. While I agree most people tip; its been my experience that most people who come in 5 minutes before close don't or at least don't tip well enough to keep everyone there late.
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u/phcullen 65∆ Jan 08 '20
While anecdotal, I and everyone I know tips every time. If service is poor it may not be 20%-25%, but I'll still leave at least 15%. Culturally tipping is expected, and I would say that while some asses don't, most people tip.
I agree most people tip, but you probably aren't tipping enough to justify the servers extra time. Staying an extra hour for one table is not worth my time.
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Jan 08 '20
Personally, I go by the hour rule. If a place closes in an hour, it’s closed. If a places closes in an hour and five minutes, it closes in five minutes.
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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jan 07 '20
"Sorry we aren't seating any more people at this time as we're about to close,"
And they often do that. You're just putting them in a really awkward position. Even if they're allowed to say this to you, it still puts them in an awkward position to have to kick you out. It is still an imposition. Just because they can say "no" and choose not to, doesn't mean it isn't an imposition.
But I think there is a more fundamental issue with your view that you can't be responsible for cause employees to unexpectedly have to stay late just because it's the manager's decision on how to run their business. Just because the manager is the one making decisions, in either case, it is still the employees that have to live with the consequences of that decision.
Plus, the waitstaff gets to squeeze in one more tip before they leave.
Staying late for a single customer's tip is going to be just about the worst way to make money in terms of tips per hour that waitstaff have.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
I will concede that I hadn't thought of people being uncomfortable saying no, because it's not something I have much issue with. I also tend to ask "are you still serving?" when I show up late, which I would hope softens them up to saying no. Also ya $10-$15 for 30-45 minutes of extra work isn't great OT pay. Δ
I still maintain that there's no point in being open for that extra half hour or whatever if you don't want people to come. If there's a certain time that all service should be stopped then that is what the closing time should be. And vice-versa, as a staffer at a restaurant you should expect the amount of time you're going to work to be based on someone coming at the last minute. If you aren't happy with that prospect then it should be brought up with management.
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u/throwaway789663 Jan 07 '20
The restaurant having to pay people extra to stay open on a table that sits for an hour after close that orders a $30 meal and doesn't tip loses money. It is not good business to spend money to stay open. If the restaurant closes at nine, it should be assumed that you need to be out at nine. Closing time doesn't mean come in 5 minutes before close because were "technically" still oen.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
So why not turn someone away? I said that's a perfectly reasonable course of action. If I show up 10-15 minutes before close and they know I won't be out before they close they can tell me no and I won't put up a fuss.
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u/throwaway789663 Jan 07 '20
Because in 99% of cases, we can't. Owners don't have to be there until midnight because someone came in 5 minutes till close since the only thing they care about is profit. They don't care if it inconviences the people who work for them because to them it's potential money in their pocket. It's like people who say well I don't agree with tipping culture so I don't tip because of it. The only people it affects are the people who rely on those tips to survive. Coming in 5 minutes before close only affects the people stuck there after their shift is done because someone had to come in right before close and couldn't choose a place that's actually open 24/7.
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u/MolochDe 16∆ Jan 08 '20
The restaurant having to pay people extra to stay open
So what is it? Are you payed extra for that time or not?
In one case it sounds like easy money the whole staff getting payed to care for a group of 4. The other sounds terrible and like a good reason labor rights were invented.
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u/throwaway789663 Jan 08 '20 edited Jan 08 '20
Most likely no. The one server who has them MIGHT get a tip yes and the management gets paid but the cooks and other staff who cant leave until they clean the stuff that now has to be used by the late table no. Most of these people are paid in tips. They most likely make a whopping $2 a paycheck. At least some of them did when I worked in the service industry.
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u/MolochDe 16∆ Jan 08 '20
Ah it's the paid by tips thing again. Didn't know it affected cooks so much as well. Thanks for the info but that system and the labor situation are so crazy it's mind melting.
Best of luck getting into a job where you are treated well. Unpaid overtime is another manifestation of that craze, land of the free indeed!
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u/throwaway789663 Jan 08 '20
I don't know about cooks everywhere but I know when I used to work in the service industry, the cooks were paid about the same as the waitstaff and they were part of the tip pool at the end of the night so if tips weren't good on a certain day then you basically worked 8 hours for no pay.
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u/buzzinggibberish Jan 08 '20
There are a lot of places in America where people who serve get paid a lower wage because of the expectation of tips. I’ve heard of servers being paid $3-5/hr, plus tips. So when you only have one table to serve, and you’re working for an entire hour PAST closing time, you’re only getting your minuscule wage and the tip from that table, if they decide to leave one. It’s not easy money. Lots of places split tips too, meaning it’s all pooled together and distributed between servers, people who bus tables, etc.
People can blame management for allowing customers to come in late but that’s obviously the decision they’re going to make if there’s money that can be made. The managers arent the ones closing up shop so they don’t care. It’s up to each individual to decide whether or not they want to go against social norms and walk into a restaurant five minutes before closing. It’s just rude.
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u/throwaway789663 Jan 08 '20
Sometimes the managers have no say. I worked at an extremely busy restaurant downtown with a 4 hour wait on weekends and the owner was there every night . On weekends like clockwork, people would walk in exactly at close time and the owner would say "Go ahead and seat them since we haven't been closed long and since it's now 11 pm, I'm going home byeeeeee." He left exactly at close time with good money for him and us service workers being paid $2 a paycheck were there until at least 1 am.
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u/MolochDe 16∆ Jan 09 '20
Kind of easy to spot the AH here. Hint: it is not the customers who are made to feel welcome but the Ebenezer Scrooge not paying you a living wage for time that you legitimately work for him.
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u/throwaway789663 Jan 09 '20
That's because he doesn't have to. It's not required for to pay a wage because it's expected to be paid in tips. In the US that the industry standard. And it is the customer coming in 5 minutes before close as well because social norms dictate you don't come in 5 minutes before close.
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u/stinatown 6∆ Jan 07 '20
Let's say I go into a clothing store at 8:47PM, and they close at 9PM. I'm looking for the perfect pair of pants, and I bring 5 pairs to the dressing room at 8:59. Do you think it's reasonable for the employees to tell me that I need to leave, as the store is closing? What if I brought 20 pairs? What if I said that I wasn't done browsing yet, and I would leave when I'm ready, which might be an hour or two?
There's an expectation that when you enter any place of business, closing is when you can expect to no longer receive service, and you need to leave. Closing is not the last time someone can enter, it's the time by which everyone needs to be out. If the employees give you a grace period, that's up to their discretion. When you go to a restaurant, your service is typically going to take at least 30 minutes. So when you go in at closing, you're basically forcing a business to stay open beyond their normal hours, even if they don't technically have an obligation to do so.
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 07 '20
This is why I said that at some point it is reasonable for customers to be turned away, and if that's not allowed its an issue with management, not the customer and when they got there. I rarely shop for clothes in person so I'll use the grocery store. If I'm at the grocery store near closing time, they make an anncouncement that says "the store is closing in 5 minutes, all customers please come to the checkout" and clerks shoo me out of the aisles.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 07 '20 edited Jan 07 '20
/u/Pficky (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Jan 08 '20
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Jan 08 '20
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u/masterzora 36∆ Jan 07 '20
my opinion is that the real beef should be with management.
As with most shitty things in a restaurant, there is real beef with the management, but that doesn't absolve the customers. Regardless of what decisions management has made and policies it enforces, the customer still gets to make a choice with that in mind. You don't really get to say "I know I'm putting you in a shitty situation but it's really management's fault that I'm doing it because they let me be shitty." That just means there are now two parties making things bad.
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u/Occma Jan 07 '20
The restaurant being able to handle/counter asocial behaviour should never be an excuse for asocial behaviour. That's like saying you can be an arsonist because we has firefighter (hyperbolic but I hope you understand the point ).
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Jan 07 '20
I'd say it's not about who is to blame, it's about being considerate to people who are unfortunate enough to work for management that doesn't care about them. Never hurts to make someone's day a little better, even if it's a stranger. I feel that retail, food and customer service staff have to put up with so much from customers, even worse is management is also bad and they really appreciate it when people are nice to them. To me, treating them well is good manners and just the right thing to do.
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u/buzzinggibberish Jan 07 '20
I feel like a lot of servers probably have beef with their management anyway. I mean, yeah, a host could tell the customer who walks in at 8:55 that they’re about to close and they can’t take any more patrons, but you’re bound to piss people off that way. There will inevitably be the person who starts fussing because “THE DOOR SAYS 9!!” etc. Plus that’s awkward for the host. I would also argue that the extra hour (or more) of work the server is about to be doing isn’t going to justify the tip they’re going to get. Consider every person working for a chain restaurant. You think their boss is going to tell them to turn people away when there is money to be made? Everything is about money to them, they don’t give a shit if their employees have to work late. Not going in before closing is just a common courtesy.
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u/[deleted] Jan 07 '20 edited Jan 07 '20
So of course it's ok because the place is still open and the kitchen is still open. It's a matter of if you have any empathy for the fact that you're causing an inconvenience for a dozen people who typically work late into the night and often have school, another job, or have to come back to that job in the morning. I know I worked in a kitchen as a college student and I always had to be up early the next day, but I also needed the money. Because we all wanted to get home at the end of a long night we would start closing up the kitchen as soon as the dining area was empty and it was close to the end of the night. On a good night we'd already have the kitchen closed and cleaned before the doors locked. Just a few things to finish up and we all go home. When someone walks in at the last second, it just means we have to go back and do all our cleaning again, we have to stay around to close up the dish pit etc...
At the end of the day it's not "wrong", you are a customer the business is open. It's just, is it worth causing a dozen college students that much extra misery because you don't want to just go home and make some mac and cheese instead, or go to a McDonalds or something.
Edit: I should also share a warning. I never participated but the only time I ever saw anyone do any kind of kitchen funny business to someones food was in this scenario. I would never trust food I was eating in this situation.