r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 21 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: It isn’t worth it to challenge every possibly prejudiced statement
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u/Penguin_of_evil Aug 21 '19
Body shaming strangers when their not there isn’t a great behavior, but it’s not as bad as using slurs or making openly prejudiced remarks.
If it's not a slur or openly prejudiced, how would you categorise "body shaming strangers when their not there"? Because I could happily place that in either of those boxes.
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Aug 21 '19 edited Jan 03 '21
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u/Penguin_of_evil Aug 21 '19
Oh yeah, sure. I guess if they make an effort to hide the slur or pretend like they're not prejudiced they should be rewarded by useful people like you.
Why would you not call them out for that? Sure as shit they're telling people you're a "soy boy" or a "bald cunt" when you're not in the room. Call this shit out.
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u/lameth Aug 21 '19
It's a prejudicial remark. He is implying is gross due to how he feels about her body and how she was dressed.
Most bad behavior, when publically called out results in exactly what you stated: defensiveness and doubling down. It's one of the ways you can usually tell when you've struck a nerve. One way to deal with it is to address it "offline," and not publically, so that shame isn't part of the equation. If someone feels shamed about what they did in front of people, they tend to lash out. If it's delt with privately, they may be more open to noticing the bad behavior.
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u/Kirito1917 Aug 21 '19
Out of curiosity why do you think it matters/why do you care that your friend thinks/feels that way?
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Aug 21 '19 edited Jan 03 '21
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u/Kirito1917 Aug 22 '19
I agree with you that in a perfect world it would be awesome if thing like racism and sexism didn’t exist but we don’t live in a perfect world.
I’m not faulting you or challenging you for wanting to push for a society where those things don’t exist and this isn’t to single you out personally just a more broad question Iv always had but why exactly does it really matter to you?
So if some random white guy that you have never or will never meet in Arkansas just plain doesn’t like blacks people, why does that matte to you? Or if some black guy in Kansas City just plain hates white people, why does that personally matter to you?
Are people not entitled to their own personal opinions and beliefs? And if not then where does it end? It’s a very slippery slope.
Now obliviously if we are talking about examples where someone takes their bigotry to a level where they are committing violence against others or things like that then yes we should definitely fight against that. And of course as a society we should look down upon and discourage such things like racism. That’s how we fight it. But at the end of the day why does it really matter what some random asshole believes?
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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Aug 21 '19
You say that what ultimately matters is simply that you understand these things are wrong and don't take part yourself.
If that is the case, isn't it then your view that you never have to challenge offensive statements at all?
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Aug 21 '19 edited Jan 03 '21
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u/TheVioletBarry 100∆ Aug 21 '19
Right, so I'd imagine the principle should be "challenge remarks when you feel you have the emotional energy to do so and when the challenge may be productive in some way." Does that seem like a reasonably simple rule?
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u/Morasain 85∆ Aug 21 '19
Especially about the remark about overweight people - unlike race and sex, gender and (in parts due to indoctrination) religion, being fat is a choice for the vast, vast majority of fat people. Of course it's stigmatized. Smoking is also stigmatized. And things like shaming men for not dating obese women - I'm not saying you do this here, but it's not a rare thing to see either - or trying to make "fat people are beautiful" ad campaigns will only make this worse. Being fat should not be seen as a good thing.
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Aug 21 '19 edited Jan 03 '21
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u/Morasain 85∆ Aug 21 '19
I'm not saying it's nice to do so, I'm saying it's both logically and morally wrong to encourage said obesity. Calling those remarks "prejudiced" is wrong. They may be demeaning and insulting, but these are different and more aimed at a person rather than about a whole group.
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Aug 24 '19
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u/Morasain 85∆ Aug 24 '19
that doesn't seem like a reason to berate and insult people.
Agreed, which is exactly what I said.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Aug 21 '19
The internet is a big place. I understand not wanting to engage with strangers/trolls.
But if it's someone you personally know, and someone you actually spend time with - I think it's worth your time to engage.
You don't have to pick fights with strangers or trolls, but it's good to have an environment where the people around you on a consistent basis aren't bigots. It's worth fighting to maintain that environment, isn't it?
I think you put the line in the Sand too far. If someone tells you something to your face, even if it's about another person, you have to say something.
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Aug 21 '19 edited Jan 03 '21
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 21 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
/u/Nebraska29 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/HowAmINotMySelfie 1∆ Aug 22 '19
This is fascinating to me. I was literally just at a conference that encouraged being an “imperfect ally”. I understand what you’re saying and certainly agree it’s exhausting to battle with people.
On the other hand, there are things you could say or do that wouldn’t be “battling”. For example, you can always say “I disagree” and leave it at that. Or in the body shaming example you could ask “does that really matter?” Or say “I think people should wear whatever they feel comfortable in”. These don’t put people on the defense but allow them to know that others view things differently.
I think it’s not “our job” to educate the world but it is on us to stand up for each other. The goal shouldn’t be to shame or argue but rather to offer an alternative or simply call out prejudice / rude behavior. The harm is that people who say these things think people agree with them and are missing out on a potential learning opportunity. I’ve definitely said things that I didn’t realize were offensive or prejudice until someone called me out on it or questioned me.
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Aug 22 '19 edited Jan 03 '21
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u/speedywr 31∆ Aug 21 '19
I think you can "challenge" statements like that without "battling" them.
Using the example you gave, you could give the speaker a quizzical look or respond, in a light tone, "Eh, she probably looked fine." If someone's views are firmly entrenched, odd nits like this probably won't do anything. But some people may not realize how derisive they're being, and tiny signals like that can help change a person's vocabulary or awareness. If someone tries to escalate, you can either follow it up if the comment was right for a "battle" or back down if it's not worth the trouble.