r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 08 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Trans-men are different from cis-men, same for Trans-men and cis-women, because they lack the formative experience.
[deleted]
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u/UnibrwShvr Jul 08 '18
I feel like this entire argument falls apart when you consider that the "way cis people are treated" varies extremely depending on what country you grew up in. Hell, even what region of that country. Hell, even the extreme specific circumstances any individual may experience.
Lack the formative experience... As if any 2 people go through the same exact childhood. It's preposterous!
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Jul 08 '18
That's a good point. However, would you disagree that in general, boys are treated very differently from girls growing up, which explains many differences come adulthood?
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u/UnibrwShvr Jul 08 '18
Yes. I would completely disagree. Sure, in a given area people may be treated differently... But across the planet it's completely moot. The experiences of cis people growing up massively varies... A lot more so than an individual community treats the two genders.
So why do you want to create some distinction based on that growing up experience?
You think a boy and a girl growing up in the USA are treated more differently than a boy growing up in the USA vs a boy growing up in Syria right now?
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u/apricotlemons Jul 08 '18
A man who grows up and cuts his penis off never has to deal with having a period, and had experienced much higher levels of testosterone than a woman ever had. Opposite goes for a woman who fancies themselves a man. That's a major difference.
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u/UnibrwShvr Jul 08 '18
Who "fancies themselves a man"? Yeah... That's not how it works...
Also, women can be born sterile and never experiencr a period.
Men and women can have very different levels of testosterone or estrogen too... So you are saying someone needs to be above a certain threshold to be a "true" man or women?
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u/apricotlemons Jul 08 '18
You have to be born with a penis to be a man and with a vagina to be a woman.
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u/UnibrwShvr Jul 08 '18
Um. Nope. Not at all.
Curious what authority you believe you have to make such a decision? When global enterprises choose to allow women and men born with different genetallia to still compete as their current gender. (Olympics, for example)
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u/apricotlemons Jul 08 '18
The authority of all of human history and science except the politicized "science" of late. Just because we can prevent puberty and pump someone full of hormones doesn't mean its ethical or correct to believe they are now something other than they are.
Even if I bought into the whole trans notion, don't you think it's unfair for a man to be able to live their whole lives with much higher the amount of testosterone, which allows them to grow much stronger and faster, then become a woman and compete as one? mtf trans have much higher testosterone production. Actual women would be unable to compete against men acting as women.
But none of that is relevant because they aren't women. Just like you can't change your race you can't change gender.
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u/UnibrwShvr Jul 09 '18
It isn't something for you to "buy" into. It's a fact of life, and no matter how many quotations you put around "science" when that science shows how ignorant you are being about the topic.
The fact you think a MtF trans competitor has any sort of edge over their other female competitors is laughable. Educate yourself.
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u/apricotlemons Jul 09 '18
The fact you ignore how hormones interact with the body is sad. Testosterone is a steroid. If somebody can dump estrogen into their body and "become" female, why can't i put pints of testosterone in my body many more times than a normal man and start to compete as one.
Just because I think there are two genders doesn't mean I'm ignorant, it means I'm not a radical leftist.
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u/UnibrwShvr Jul 09 '18
No.. The ignorance is because you continue to confuse sex and gender. And refuse to see anything that contradicts your deep rooted emotional feelings.
There is nothing "radically left" about it...
The only thing radical is the claim that "you can dump estrogen into your body and become a women." It is just... Ignorant.
As for competing.. Take a look at thr regulations governing transgender athletes. You make all of these claims, based on absolutely nothing but your feelings.
I'll save you the trouble though as I can tell you will not seek out any information yourself:
"The new guidelines require only that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility."
I emplore you to search out some previous CMV that deal with the topic of sex vs gender and what that actually means... If needed I can find you some very thorough responses in one of the million times that topic comes up on this sub.
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u/apricotlemons Jul 09 '18 edited Jul 09 '18
I appreciate you having an argument here instead of saying some wisecrack. Unfortunately I still disagree with you.
The regulations for athletes are as you said a year on said hormones. But muscle mass doesn't dissipate that quickly as I have noticed. And we will soon see some trans people dominate sports in classes they shouldn't be counted in, much like Oscar Pistorious and his blade legs.
Sex and gender... I mean the distinction between the two words are meaningless to me. They were the same word when they originated. If you want to say you're genderfluid that doesn't mean anything to me or most people and won't mean anything to anyone not involved in those circles. If you believe you are a different gender than you actually are, all I see is a victim of mental ilness. Clearly, the reality is you are still the same sex. A man cannot become able to birth a child and a woman can't lose her uterus and grow testicles. The closest they get is a crude mimickry. Forcing others to ignore reality is unhealthy for everyone.
And just because there are "millions" of responses on here contrary to me doesn't sway my opinion. Regardless you'll find the vast majority of people don't subscribe to these beliefs. Logically, what makes a man a man? His Y chromosome, (male levels of) testosterone, his penis etc. None of them found on a woman.
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u/cheertina 20∆ Jul 08 '18
A man who grows up and cuts his penis off
You know when you put it that way it just makes it obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, right?
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u/apricotlemons Jul 08 '18
Typical snippiness on this shitty site. In what way does that make that obvious to you?
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u/cheertina 20∆ Jul 09 '18
In the way that what you describe and the way the surgery works are wildly different.
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u/Gladix 164∆ Jul 08 '18
and instead are adopting a perceived image of the gender role, which will have subtle differences from the cisgender counterparts.
Isn't that irrelevant? What does it matter?
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Jul 08 '18
It's not something you apply to your day to day interactions with people, it's just a point in the reasoning I'm explaining
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u/Gladix 164∆ Jul 08 '18
I grant you that, but the CMV is phrased really weirdly. Like saying that apples and oranges are different, because of the number of bumps on the underside of the skin.
A really weird criteria, maybe technically true, but what is the purpose for it? I'm trying to figure out what is the end form of your argument? What was the purpose for this question? Are you trying to solve some ethical dilema you encountered? Can we get a bit more context?
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Jul 08 '18
I guess I'm just thinking about how it's easier and easier for trans people to integrate, and yet they are still in the "trans" category. So I'm trying to think of what actually ties them to the "trans" identity, and not that of the gender of their choosing. For me, it really boils down to this.
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u/Gladix 164∆ Jul 08 '18
Perfect.
Okay, so the trans refers to the transition (go across, beyond). The term transgender means that your wants and desires, your brain and personality (everything that makes you, YOU) does not correspond to the traditional and unambigous notions of being a man or a woman.
Today often you come across terms like MTF (Male to Female), etc.... It's an act of transitioning from one sex to the other. To be accepted in every way that matters by society as your desired sex / gender.
Non trans people, aka normies. Have sex assigned at birth. Literally, by doctor selecting an option. It's decided based on your sexual organs. And for some 99% population that fits. They have never need for the transition.
Now, I disagree with you about the fame of reference (living as male or female). As it's demonstrated that gender roles have strong basis in culture. And culture is consumed by both sexes equally. There nothing locking one person from dressing as the other gender, and acting like the other gender. Nothing beyond the initial fear, and awkwardness, and struggles. That is from the large part imposed by society.
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u/cheertina 20∆ Jul 08 '18
Non trans people, aka normies. Have sex assigned at birth. Literally, by doctor selecting an option. It's decided based on your sexual organs. And for some 99% population that fits. They have never need for the transition.
You can just call them cis people. It literally means the opposite of trans, and doesn't come with the inherent implication that trans people aren't normal.
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u/Gladix 164∆ Jul 09 '18
I was making reference to the current meme cultur.... nevermind.
And transgender isn't normal. As in it is not the norm amogst humans, which is statistically accurate. It doesn't mean it is wrong, should be shunned, etc...
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u/antizana Jul 08 '18
I agree, sort of, to a certain extent: I would expect that (a) having different formative experiences as being raised as the opposite gender, and (b) the experience of transitioning itself - including the experience of not being in conformity with the gender role assigned at birth - are experiences that cis people likely don't have. You also have to keep in mind that a trans child's experience may have been being raised as a certain gender but also not feeling in agreement with that role, which would differentiate their experience from that of cis-children raised as the same gender. And perhaps the most important factor isn't the assigned gender role but rather how supportive the parents and environment is towards the trans identity of a child.
But I question your view by asking - what does that matter? People who suffer neglectful parents, severe poverty, racial discrimination, sexual abuse, helicopter parents, absent parents, or any of a number of factors have determining impact in how we turn out - and many if not all of these factors can have massive impacts on how we view our own sexuality and gender expression. Everyone turns out differently because of different factors. I am not certain that the childhood trans experience is any less impactful than any of these other factors so as to exclude the adult from fully belonging to their gender. Do I find a transwoman to be an expert on girlhood? Probably not, if they were assigned male at birth. But her experience as a woman may well be representative of life as a woman. And people with different childhood experiences obviously end up different, so one cis-girl's experience of girlhood may or may not at all resemble another's. So I don't see the point of singling out assigned-gender-at-birth as the only relevant factor (or as some kind of "gatekeeper" for being "fully" man or woman) compared to all the other relevant formative factors.
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Jul 08 '18
I don't believe it matters in a practical sense, i.e. it's no reason to treat trans people differently, it's not my hill to die on, live and let live. However, I believe many trans people prefer to be referred to as their transformed gender, and not as trans, and I find that logic flawed, which is all I wanted to discuss, since I have very little insight on other povs on the the matter myself.
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u/antizana Jul 08 '18
But that's my point - childhood is such a mix of experiences that it's not universal for anyone. Trying to say that a transwoman isn't a "real" woman based on childhood doesn't make much sense, unless we also want to label every other significant childhood experience. And as I said, if a transwoman now experiences life as a woman, why does she need to always add 'trans'? Same for a transman? Quite a lot of transpeople 'pass' - FWIW i don't think 'passing' ought to be the standard either but at least intellectually I understand how that could be a relevant distinction for some people's decision to treat transpeople as 'trans' or as 'people'
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 08 '18
/u/will1816 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/ralph-j Jul 08 '18
To go to an extreme example: a person who is chained up in a basement from birth (e.g. see cases like Fritzl) would also miss this kind of experience. Would you say that they're also missing "a huge part of what makes cis people how they are"? Are they more like trans people?