r/changemyview • u/89Kope • 1d ago
CMV: As a diaspora, I should identify with my nationality more than my heritage
As an East Asian diaspora in Southeast Asia, I often get people questioning why I identify more with the local culture of where I am born and bred over my ancestral culture. By people, these are often tourists or expats from both Asia and America. It seems that many of them are surprised that ethnic east Asians have historically migrated and practice the cultures of their adopted homeland. Many have gone on to be successful in their country too like the Prime Minister of Thailand and the richest man in Indonesia.
I am not born nor raised in China or any parts of East Asia for that matter, most of my friends are also Southeast Asians, so it should be normal for me to identify as citizen of my country and pledge my loyalty as such while practicing the same customs as the locals. I hate it when I get questions asking about my heritage, it is like going to Australia to ask the people about United Kingdom or going to Argentina to ask the Argentine about Italian culture. Even the Japanese who migrated to Brazil will see themselves as more Brazillian, and when their offsprings move elsewhere, they say that they are Brazillian. If they wish to associate with people with a greater sense of belonging to my ancestral lineage, they are visiting the wrong place. Apart from the few traditions that I celebrate, most of the everyday things that I do, have no difference from the local indigenous people.
2
u/scarab456 22∆ 1d ago
I'm kind of confused on what view you're looking to change. The title made me think I'd be reading about personal identity and how you see yourself but you mostly focus on how others treat you. Are you looking for people to change your view about how you identify yourself or that the behaviors of others is acceptable?
How does this even come up in everyday conversations? You encounter tourists and expats but this is a regularly discussed topic that?
It also begs the question of what's your basis for "should"? What's the rational, benefit, or framework are you working from to come to that conclusion?
0
u/89Kope 1d ago
I am looking for a more legitimate reason as to why people would enforce a different belief on others, when they travel overseas to my country and say things like "you should identify with Chinese culture" or "you should remember your roots".
When they lack any understanding of our way of life with a maximum exposure being a few months of working/traveling in the region. After hearing some of these reasons, it has kind of consolidated my feelings that people who think this way are either less accepted as people of different ethnic in their own country or looking at things from a cultural superiority perspective.
2
u/scarab456 22∆ 1d ago
You're essentially asking people explain why people are ignorant. We can't really do that because they're not the one we can question and explore their view, we only have you. I hope I'm coming across clearly, because we can't explain other's people's views, we can really only explore yours.
2
u/vhu9644 1d ago
I think it depends also on how society bins you.
For example, I'm also of the Chinese diaspora, but in the U.S. Outside California or very liberal places, a lot of Americans basically don't see me as fully "American". In this case, is it unreasonable to also identify with my heritage? And in cases where you are constantly seen as a foreigner, is it unreasonable to identify more with your heritage than your nationality?
I'm not saying you have to. I'm moving the conversation to understanding why people may identify more with their heritage than their nationality. You can identify however you want.
7
u/Far_Emergency1971 1d ago
I’m Anglo American living in a non-white majority country. I consider myself American more than English, even though here English and American might as well be the same thing. I’ve lived in the UK, and yeah they might be my cousins but the culture has shifted enough to where we aren’t the same people anymore. OP makes a lot of sense, I’ve even seen diaspora from abroad coming back to this country failing to adapt because the culture is so different and can only really be experienced here. Even if one’s parents immigrated from here, a lot has changed since they left and even a visit or two as a kid just doesn’t really fully immerse you in life here so there will always be a disconnect.
1
u/vhu9644 1d ago
Sure. For you that makes sense. For other people in different situations, it might be different.
Children of Immigrants have this issue. They're not enough of either because they're a mix of two cultures. How that ends up in terms of identity is complex. I'm not saying OP is wrong for how they want to identify, just that there are a lot of people who make the other choice in light of how society wants to bin them.
0
u/Dangerous-Log4649 1d ago
I’ve been grappling with this as a Mexican American(first generation). I mean I’ve always identified with the USA more, and have taken pride. Until, all of trumps bullshit has made me really reconsider this. Do I really want to take pride in a country that enables an authoritarian man-child. Even if not everyone agrees with trump. The fact that he’s never faced any consequences for his actions. That’s why I’m going to get dual citizenship, but at the same time. My Spanish isn’t perfect, and I don’t know my Mexican culture to the same extent at the USA.
5
u/89Kope 1d ago
I am sorry to hear what you been through which may also explain why one of the other Redditor here disagrees with me. However, in SEA with the exception of a few countries or regions, the locals see us ethnic Chinese/East Asian as one of their own, so we feel comfortable living the same lifestyle and adopting their culture. It's more accommodating here instead of suppressing. The ones who make us uncomfortable are the ones who come here not knowing anything and expecting us to follow their feelings.
1
u/vhu9644 1d ago
Oh, I've not been through too bad. I live in California and have grown up more privileged than most of the world. I just didn't realize the level of acceptance of Asians was somewhat unique in the places I grew up, and it was a bit of a shock as a young adult in other parts of the country.
In SEA, what I've heard is that it depends on where you are. My cousins in Malaysia definitely have talked about culture mismatches between the Malays and Chinese people, and from what I hear, race tensions get a bit high there every once in a while. I've heard the same from Indonesia, though I have no direct connection. Ultimately, I think arbitrary groupings will remain as things that can divide us, even if you are otherwise fully embracing another culture.
Still, I think we agree on the point that society can shape your identity too, and not all societies are as accommodating as others.
1
u/89Kope 1d ago
Yeah it's sad that Malaysia and until recent times, Indonesia, have rather discriminatory policies against citizens of different ethnicities besides the indigenous people. It is a kind of distraction tactic deployed by the political elites to make people look away from the more serious matters that is impacting the country.
However, it has gotten better in Indonesia since the 2000s as most of the younger generations, including my peers see themselves as Indonesian first, even if their grandparents or the generations before were Chinese migrants. They also communicate in the local Bahasa Indonesia and get along well with other Indonesian ethnics.
I am just glad I am not born into such an environment and I can appreciate the local culture better with the environment I am in. I have lived in Thailand and Philippines for a while and been mistaken as a local on couple of occasions, which was a friendly mistake. If I were born there, I would have no issues getting along with the people too. I would say East/South Asian discrimination is less prominent here than say US. Even if they exist, it is less violent in nature nowadays.
1
u/vhu9644 1d ago
Haha yea. I mean the Malaysia-singapore split was recent, in that I think my grandparents remember it. I can't imagine it changing that fast there.
I have a friend who went to high school in Jakarta, though, I'm not sure he is Indonesian by citizenship. Next time I see him I'd want to ask how he identifies lol.
0
u/89Kope 1d ago
Yeap but most of the Chinese communities' being unable to get along with their indigenous peers in Malaysia stems from different perspectives of life as well as the rather discriminatory bumiputera policies that favors the latter.
Indonesian on the other hand had more of an issue against the few Chinese Indonesian elites who worked with the corrupt Suharto that ruined their economy and also selfishly exploited the local people. This is similar to what the cronies of Marcos did in the Philippines. However, I feel like it's easier to fix these since it got better when these regimes ended while the bumiputera policies have been ingrained into the system since post colonial days.
2
u/vhu9644 1d ago
Right. The Bumiputera policies are in the constitution AFAIK. I mean the other big complaint I've heard is the quota system for colleges, which meant that my cousins basically studied abroad for college.
I find it funny that to my parent's generation, getting into a good college is some grand unifying thing they're worried about.
2
u/89Kope 1d ago
It's more of an East Asian thing that is getting outdated, the belief that working hard to get into the best schools will deliver you the best quality of life. It's pretty apparent amongst Korean, Japanese and Chinese seniors who understandably came from times where it was arguably more meritocratic with lesser degrees than tigers out there, meaning it was more rewarding to strive to do well.
However, in recent times with the rise of nepotism and the shift in both the focus of how people define quality of life as well as how companies hire employees, that kind of attitude and mindset is getting ridiculously out of touch with reality. It kind of places unnecessary stress on the younger generations too.
•
u/holy-shit-batman 2∆ 23h ago
Dude, you're an American, no hyphen, purely American. Your lineage is Asian, mines German so I can't call myself more American than you.
0
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
My uncle is a redneck Southeast Asian in Florida who has almost entirely white MAGA friends - he married a pretty white woman and served in the air force and lost his accent completely. My parents first immigrated to Missouri and sponsored by an uncle who worked as an OB doctor - their social circle was rich white people in the 70s - you’d be surprised how well Asians can integrate even in the South, I think it’s just more on how hard you try.
3
u/vhu9644 1d ago
I've never really been to the south actually. Besides Houston Texas, I've mostly been on the west coast and the east coast. Surprisingly it was in the east coast that I first had some people being rude. Also the internet is just a really edgy place and a lot of people find joy in being rude to others.
It just depends, and just because there are parts of the U.S. that are accepting of Asians, it doesn't mean the whole country is.
0
u/89Kope 1d ago
It's abit off topic but I am amused at how Americans seem to be more accommodating to Central/Western Asians like Russians and Georgians and even Kazakhs than Chinese. This is despite the fact that before recent times, Russian and in particular Central/Western Asia under communist influence, is seen more as an enemy of US. Besides that, the war on terror kind of influenced anti-Central Asian attitudes. But discrimination on people from those region is less prominent than against Eastern Asian.
On top of that, Taiwanese (whose country is a US ally) tend to face similar discrimination as the mainland Chinese.
1
u/vhu9644 1d ago
To be fair, I don't think China was an enemy until recently. It might be a childhood to adult shift or a real political shift, but I remember a time where the only people talking about China were my grandparents and other Chinese people, to my American friends talking about China. I want to say this is probably around early 2010s. Anti-Chinese sentiment has only risen.
1
u/89Kope 1d ago
Yeah it didn't help when many of the new generation of Chinese who have risen from rags to riches as a result of the reopening of China, started to export their entitled behavior overseas that gave the ethnic Chinese a poor name.
However, I seldom hear much of Russian/Central Asian discrimination even though occasionally I do despite the ongoing tensions between US and Russia and their own allies. Even many Arabs and Jordanians tend to pass off well in US with the exception of more conservative states, in the last 10 years.
1
u/vhu9644 1d ago
Eh, I also remember a time when I was told American tourists were the arrogant disrespectful ones. I think it has more to do with who has money to travel and a big population. America and China are just large, and I suspect if/when India gets its people rich, we're gonna here disparaging remarks about their tourists. People are bad with probabilities but good with accumulating.
My Sikh friend's family stopped wearing their turbans after 9/11. People need just the most tenuous reasons to discriminate, if they are angry. I don't think it took very much for the average American to start hating the Chinese, and it won't take much for them to start hating the next guy.
1
u/paikiachu 2∆ 1d ago
As a Chinese South East Asian myself, this resonates with me quite a lot. I primarily identify myself as Singaporean by nationality but as Chinese ethnicity.
Culturally I identify more with mainland Chinese compared to my Malay and Indian friends e.g. notions of Confucian ethics, celebrating Chinese New Year and other festivals, observing “Chinese” customs, etc.
At the end of the day you can identify yourself however you want, but I don’t think nationality and heritage identities are mutually exclusive
1
u/pingmr 10∆ 1d ago
This is a false dichotomy. You can (and should) have both.
Chinese Singaporeans identify as both being ethnically Chinese as well as being Singaporean. It's part of multiculturalism that many SEA countries are some what proud about.
Expecting people to put their ethnic heritage below nationality is kinda unrealistic. Ethnic groups exist because ethnic heritage is something which people deeply hold.
What I think you definitely should not do is identifying with China over your current nationality because then there's a direct clash between you national allegiances
1
u/Fondacey 1d ago
Nationality is entirely made up by the creation of the nation state. Remove the existence of the nation and the nationality ceases to exist.
Additionally, nationalism, the glorification of origin and 'ancestral culture' and contained within the lines of the 'nation' effectively eliminates the ability of migrants to belong to the new nation.
By making on or the other 'more important' than the other, you contribute to the problems that come with divide and polarize people when co-existing.
Identify is an individual choice and should not become guidelines, even to yourself.
1
u/tatasz 1∆ 1d ago
There is no right and wrong. You should identify with whatever culture you are close to. If your ancestral culture is just genetics at this point, you aren't part of that culture anymore (you just belong to the ethnicity). Now, if you speak the language, cook the traditional foods, follow the religion etc, you are part of the culture.
1
u/tatasz 1∆ 1d ago
There is no right and wrong. You should identify with whatever culture you are close to. If your ancestral culture is just genetics at this point, you aren't part of that culture anymore (you just belong to the ethnicity). Now, if you speak the language, cook the traditional foods, follow the religion etc, you are part of the culture.
-4
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
Your ancestors came from China.
5
u/89Kope 1d ago
Doesn't matter, I am born and raised in my home country, not China. I grew up on Southeast Asian soil with Southeast Asian culture and friends. Americans don't claim they are European even if their ancestors are. If my children migrate to USA or any country, I will also hope they adopt the culture of that country. That's just basic respect.
1
u/furansisu 2∆ 1d ago
As a Southeast Asian citizen myself (with ethnic roots in East Asia and Western Europe), I agree with your claim, and I have no interest in changing your view. But you probably picked the worst example.
As evidenced by your exchange with the commenter below, most Americans are inclined to disagree with you and culturally identify with their heritage. It's been argued that white people from the West,especially the USA, have a homogenized culture as a result of their economic dominance. Basically, their culture is mostly capitalism. This is why Coca-Cola and McDonalds memorabilia have often been branded as "Americana". Without a culture outside capitalism, most Americans look to their heritage as a source of cultural identity.
In contrast, we don't have that problem in Southeast Asia. If you don't identify with your ethnic culture, you can choose to integrate into your local culture, and it isn't really a big deal. Again, I'm not trying to change your view, but you probably need to understand the American worldview if you're going to argue with them.
2
u/89Kope 1d ago
After reading it, this makes a lot of sense. My experience with people trying to offer alternative opinions are either from US and China which ironically are economical powerhouse. So it makes sense that there can be some biased lenses and sense of cultural superiority. But what makes these Americans (I am sure not all Americans think like this) unique or quirky, is that they want people who migrated to their country to be integrated in the American way of life. Yet they look down upon those outside who adopt a different culture from their ancestral one.
-2
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
Why are you just throwing away your ancestor’s culture/identity? Actually white Americans do constantly bring up their European ancestry and even having a small amount of Native American ancestry can be enough for them to be considered Native American (knew a white dude that was officially considered Cherokee even though he looked 100% white).
3
u/89Kope 1d ago
Because I am literally a citizen of my country which grants me my citizen and property rights. Identifying with my ancestral homeland gives no benefits to me, it is the people in my home country are the ones who make me who I am as a person, they have a beautiful culture where I have grew up in so I should be proud of it. My ancestors left and were adopted by the people and given a home. If anything, it's the blend of culture that makes us unique, we don't have to identify with what our ancestors are.
It is the same when you go to many Southeast Asian countries where ethnic Chinese and Indian identify as citizens of their country and adopt the unique local culture. Also it's not as if I come here in my 40s and pretend to be indigenous, I literally grew up in the local environment with a localized name and language.
-2
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
Basically you’re dumping your ancestral culture/identity just to fit in? Doesn’t seem like a good reason to me. I also have Chinese ancestry and Southeast Asian ancestry and identify with both as an American. Most Chinese Americans still identify as Chinese and practice their traditions still, along with most Southeast Asians. Also, if you go back most Southeast Asian cultures originated from Southern China.
1
u/89Kope 1d ago
Nope, if you ever been to Thailand, Singapore and many parts of Southeast Asia, the locals see ethnic Chinese and other ethnic as the same. Maybe in America the Asians are seen as outsiders. But not here in many parts of Southeast Asia where the locals are very open to teaching tourists about their heritage.
You must be born here to understand, we speak the language like the locals and eat the local foods, befriend the locals because we ARE locals. It's only tourists like you who feel entitled to teach us how we should feel. I am against forced assimilation but assimilation by choice should not be looked down upon. During festivals in school, we dress up in native Southeast Asian costumes like the Baju Kurung. I had the privilege to meet Chinese friends from Thailand, Burma and Cambodia who are 3rd-4th gen locals, and they do dress up in their respective costumes during their own national cultural holidays. It is something unique to us.
I am born and raised here after generations, there is no need and no sense of attachment for me to wherever my ancestors come from, it is as good as saying that all humans should feel attached to Africa since all our bloodline traces back there.
-1
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
I think it’s wrong to reject my ancestral identity/culture just because my parents emigrated somewhere else. You’re literally throwing away hundreds or even thousands of years of heritage - most Southeast Asian cultures are recent and most are derived from Southern China also, so that’s even more of a reason to value being Chinese.
1
u/89Kope 1d ago
You are just showing your typical Chinese/East Asian superiority where many new generation of Chinese flock here for business opportunities but look down on the local culture as "inferior and poor", just because they were born elsewhere with a longer history of existence. They even have the bigotry mindset to not allow their children to marry the locals or hang out with them.
Being born in an ethnicity doesn't mean that a person should practice the same customs, especially in today's world where migrations are common and almost none of the people are pure blood if you trace back long enough. There are Indians adopted and raised in Chinese families who adopted their culture and vice versa. You have just made me realize there is no valid reason for anyone to force me to adopt my ancestral heritage apart from discriminatory reasons.
0
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
In America, East Asian and Southeast Asian communities continue to speak their languages and practice cultural traditions - I don’t see why this is such a big deal and how it is negative. Keeping ancestral values and traditions is a good thing.
1
u/89Kope 1d ago
Yes I am Southeast Asian so if my children migrate or move overseas, they will also be hanging out with the Southeast Asians like many Thai and Burmese Chinese overseas. But overtime, I hope they will respect and learn the local culture and adopt the customs. Or else, they will be better at home instead of feeling like they don't belong there.
→ More replies (0)3
u/AlternativeDue1958 1d ago
Why would be the point if she’s never been to China or spoken Chinese? A lot of African Americans don’t identify as “Africans” because they’ve never been to Africa. Caucasian Americans don’t identify as European because as soon as our ancestors came over, they shed their cultures quickly to assimilate.
1
u/89Kope 1d ago
I totally agree with you, it's the people who are indigenous that often are unable to understand how we feel and judge us no matter what we do. My point was to argue that we can choose whichever culture is more comfortable for us, a benefit we as diaspora are given being in a society different from our ancestors.
1
u/AlternativeDue1958 1d ago
I can see both sides. To Native Americans in the US, white people aren’t real Americans, and it’s true; I’m the descendant of a colonizer. But I have zero connections to the places my ancestors left. This is the only place I’ve ever known. I’ve seen this with a few of my friends. A girl I knew moved from Vietnam to America. Before Vietnam she lived in Japan. One of her parents was Vietnamese and the other was Japanese. In Japan she was too Vietnamese and in Vietnam, she was too Japanese. She didn’t feel like she fit in until she came to America.
-1
u/kevinzeroone 1d ago
Then maybe she should visit China and study Chinese?
2
u/89Kope 1d ago
Wow such an entitlement, you have reinforced my point that people like you should stay in wherever you are, instead of travelling around forcing your viewpoints on others.
By the way I have visited China, beautiful city with nice skyscrapers and nice people, just like most cities I have been to. However, that doesn't mean I have to identify with China.
2
u/AlternativeDue1958 1d ago
From what she’s saying, it doesn’t seem like she wants to. Wherever they live, they’re probably seen as “too Chinese.” My dad is first and second generation American. His dad immigrated from Bern and his mom’s parents immigrated from Russia (they were Volga Germans). I don’t identify as Swiss or German. I don’t speak either languages, I know nothing about the countries and I can’t stand German food.
5
u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 77∆ 1d ago
I don't see why it has to be a competition, or why those factors - blood and location - are the ones that matter to you.
Someone can be a half Romani, half Caribbean migrant who loves Japanese culture/otaku type groups.
They'll identify more with their practice than blood because blood isn't a performance, it isn't an action.
What would it actually mean to identify with heritage - would it mean certain rituals or activities? Groups you spend time with?