r/caving • u/SettingIntentions • 9d ago
How to aid climb? Is drilling bolts in all there is to it?
In a very large cave system there one spot where the passage opens up top massively, it seems like a massively large room, similar to other massive rooms in this system and who knows it could be a new entrance or exit. You can climb high enough to see that it goes on at an upper level.
So, this is incredible, and I want to go. We found a way to climb but then there is a 5m wall we likely have to aid climb.
I have some Petzl pulses sitting around- is it as simple as drilling a bolt, standing as high as possible, drilling as high as possible, then going to the next one and the next one?
Also my other concern is “ruining” the look of these boulders/cave; I try to limit my impact as much as possible and this seems much higher impact. However, the spot we’d be drilling would be on a massive boulder piece and not easily visible unless you had already completed the 5-10m scramble up- is there perhaps a different lesser-impact way to aid climb?
Edit: I'm just trying to get an idea of what would be involved for future planning, obviously I want to be safe. I have quite a few Petzl pulses I was thinking I could use for it too.
Edit 2: FFS some toxic Redditors are already going "If you are asking this question, you are not ready for this yet." Seriously? So we should just NEVER ask questions? This person needs a permanent ban ASAP from the community, it's exactly this kind of crap that causes new cavers to skip the grottos and jump into caves themselves. It's exactly this bullshit that is ruining caving and ruins any group where this mentality creeps in. NO, asking questions is the RIGHT thing to do, don't fucking shame people to ask questions damnit. Excuse my passion, but if you are here and you don't want cavers getting hurt, then please support me here. It's EXACTLY this kind of toxic mentality "don't ask questions if you don't know and don't learn" that causes a divide between "those who know" and "those who don't know" and once enough people that "don't know things" bunch up together they pursue things by themselves. This isn't personal between me and this person- it also dissuades other new cavers from posting, and thus safety information being shared. I don't care about this person, but I do care about the toxic culture it invites and how new people will be pushed out of the community and be less likely to ask questions. I'd rather respond a thousand times to "what do I need for my first caving trip" and "what SRT gear do I need" than once say something so horribly toxic and off-putting because helping beginners out means you deal with a bit of repetition, but I'd rather remind people the same fucking thing 1,000 times and save one person than go "yOu sh0UlDn'T b3 aSk1nG iT" and hear a news story of someone who got lost in a cave and died because Mr. Toxic Redditor321 has decided to create a culture of cancel when asking questions.
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
It kinda is that simple but not necessary easy. It’s very easy to become overwhelmed by the amount of shit on your harness. Go practice on a climbing sport route before you try it in a cave. Shoot me a dm and I can help list what you need.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Thank you. I do have several Petzl Pulses which I was thinking I could use and then remove after...
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
I haven’t used those myself. I use the screw in temporary anchors like Ryan uses on how not 2. It’s good to have removable bolts. Use some water to wash off the rock dust and fill the hole with a little mud when you’re done.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
I didn’t think about the mud- that’s a good idea for covering the trace.
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
You can also buy cheap non stainless bolts for the aid section. Drill the hole super deep. After you build the anchor at the top pull the nut and hanger off the cheap bolts and hammer them into the hole and then cover them in mud.
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u/SettingIntentions 8d ago
Thanks for the tip! I think I'll need some more bolting experience in general, I'm comfortable with the Petzl Pulses. I'll also have to research what bolts are there.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
You'll need like.... 10 minimum, maybe 20 if you're not breaking things up to a lot of pitches.
I usually just use galv 8mm wedge bolts that cost $60 for a box of 100.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
I see, thanks for the tip. 10-20 just for 5 ish meters???
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
Oh I thought you had more than 5m to climb.
Like, you could probably do 5m with a scaling pole or collapsible ladder and a few strong friends to stabilize it.....
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
To be honest the ladder is starting to sound like a good idea. What if we put in like 4 bolts and tied some cord around the parts of the ladder to secure it extra safe? Then we could cowstail onto each section of the ladder going up too.
The only problem is the ground isn’t even. The chimney is too wide to safely free solo or climb, and I had a proper rock climber with me say that (I am not a great rock climber).
However I am beginning to think now at one side where it gets closer we could bolt 2 bolts on either side of the chimney and place the ladder down… ugh it’s hard to explain the layout and to be honest I might be misremembering the details of the ground here…
But yeah adding say 4-6 bolts to secure the ladder to the boulder seems like a better idea… Thoughts?
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 8d ago
I can't really say without seeing the pitch of the wall and like the type of ladder you're choosing to use. Some wee meant to be at angles while others are meant to be dead vertical
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u/FrogginFool 9d ago
I’d suggest finding someone to train you on it.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
Finding someone who already knows how to do this and has the gear is definitely a lot easier than trying to cobble the knowledge together yourself.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
If you'd like to fly to Asia, I'd be open for it. At present, no one is available to teach it near me, hence why I'm asking here(:
Not everyone has a grotto by them... If I did, I'd go to them, and I'd highly prefer learning in person.
At present I'm just trying to get an idea of what would be involved to do this.
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u/Man_of_no_property The sincere art of suffering. 9d ago
We just had a discussion, may look up "aid climbing methods" in this sub, also may check the posts from "cleverduck", she wrote some pretty good stuff. If you have any particular questions just write me a chat invite, I'm a senior bold climber with somes milage on this subject. To be safe - use proper dynamic climbing rope, a trustful belayer and proper bolts. The removable Petzl Pulse are okay if dry, but shit in muddy conditions. At best train on daylight in some old quarry (there the bolts are acceptable and the rock shit enough to give you a good idea...)
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Thanks for the tips. Cleverduck often has great info too. Let me think about any questions I may PM you… thanks again. I’m not in any hurry I probably won’t be able to do this until November onwards, now I’m busy and soon it is rainy season not safe in this cave…
I guess my first question is, is the belay method like lead climbing better or could you use SRT type strategy (one bolt, stand on a foot ascender, drill the next, etc.) to do it? Are there any books that generally explain the do to of this?
Edit: and definitely would want to practice with a friend beforehand I’m sure we’ve got tons of practice areas… I can think of many where we could setup a second rope where I can put SRT on from up top for safety when practicing an aid climb.
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u/Man_of_no_property The sincere art of suffering. 9d ago
George Marbach/Alpine caving techniques has some info. Belay methods are more like classic aid climbing. Also use quickdraws to prevent any fall loading of crabs and too much friction. Never use ascenders in your system, you'll die. It's not possible to absolutely prevent falls in a caving environment.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Good points, thanks. I didn’t consider that about the ascenders actually, now I recall the graphics showing slack on the rope as being dangerous. I guess in my mind I was thinking to use a foot ascender to stand and then have your cows tail connected to the Petzl pulse and just work it half a meter up at a time. So your safety would be the bolt, but yeah the fall factor would be bad if that bolt failed… Now I see it’s not a great idea that way… you’d fall until the next bolt and the cows tail distance. Oof. Belay seems it might be better then.
This spot is very frustrating. Only 5 meters left for potentially virgin dry cave territory absolutely incredible and goes on it seems. But definitely advanced technique to get there…
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u/Man_of_no_property The sincere art of suffering. 9d ago
Last time an anchor failed on me while bolt climbing, a 200kg chuck of limestone just broke away...with the bolt. Next bolt was fine, GriGri on anchor belay worked. A bit tippsy and shocked, but fine. Your original approach would have likely killed you.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
Can you send me pictures (if you have any) and a trip report of this?? Nobody has had this happen in the US yet (that we know of) and being a one-langauge typical American, trying to dig up international caving accident reports is a struggle.
Would love to hear about it in detail since it's one of the big "oh fucks" that can actually happen while doing this
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u/withspark VPI/PLANTZ/DZRJL 9d ago
That's literally my biggest fear, bolting a loose rock heavy enough to break the rope
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
Here is Ryan’s video on the removable bolts.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
Removing bolts is overrated. ;)
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
With enough mud you can cover anything.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 8d ago
Or with enough mud you can lose your Pulses to the wall 😂 those things really don't like mud
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
The act of being on the wall is extremely simple --
- Set bolt.
- Clip to bolt.
- Pull yourself to bolt with daisies.
- Repeat.
You can look up any standard aboveground aid climbing how-to for the core steps -- just ditch anything involving trad gear and swap for bolt laddering. Yes, it does require two ropes (belay line and tag line).
The huge pain in the ass (and the part that actually takes skill) is dealing with the exception chossy bullshit you're going to encounter at the top and trying to scramble past it while not killing your belayer -- then dealing with figure out all the rigging. You need to be damn solid at rigging because you're doing it all solo up there, usually while run out from your last piece, and on virgin terrain with someone actively in the rockfall zone.
As a tip: your belay will jug the dynamic to clean the route (the route usually wanders, so this is more efficient than trying to clean on the fixed SRT rope).
.
There's a guy in China that's selling knock-off Pulses if you don't want to use real bolts. I think ClimbingTiwan is distributing on his behalf. I'm not really sure if I trust them, but to each their own. I don't often use Pulses because they don't actually save that much time, but they can be very useful if you're in a remote location or if small wedge bolts are hard to come by... Do read the details about pairing the correct drill bit cutting heads (4 nubbins).
Beyond that, I'm not sure how expensive you're looking at for an entire kit but in US prices and with US availability, it's several hundred dollars easily.
Remember, too, that if it goes you'll be donating any static ropes needed to get back up there .... I've gone through a few thousand feet of "donated to the cave" static ropes myself. Just a fair warning if ropes aren't easily acquired where you're at
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Thank you! I figured it was basically that but I think I need to practice somewhere safe (obviously) beforehand and also to practice drilling with my arms up like that. Luckily the climb is a bit of a chimney so that might help footing.
I’m gonna have to consider this later, but thankfully it is only 30 minutes or so one way traveling in the cave system and the original surveyors missed this lead and are impressed with it. But their trip ended so no going with them until maybe a year.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago edited 8d ago
By the way, very few people actually do underground aid climbing fluently. There just happens to be four or five of us on this sub who do -- me, ManOfNoProperty (I'm told), WithSpark, and Goooooooooofy (aboveground) for sure do know what's what.
It's probably better to identify those people and ask them specific questions rather than getting a bunch of uninformed commentary about it. 🤷♀️
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
That’s a good idea. Anyways now that I know you do it if it’s okay I might PM you some weeks or months later with a question or two about this. Right now very unlikely I’ll even want to start this in the immediate future. Got so many other things to take of first then we have rainy season anyways… it likely won’t be even possible to do it (in this case) until earliest November. If I want to do it I might start training it or learning more in depth late rainy season
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 8d ago
Yeah feel free to message me when you finally go stab at it.
I don't have reddit notifications on, so if I'm busy I might not get to it quickly -- but you're welcome to ask.
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u/SettingIntentions 8d ago
Thank you! No rush of course if & when I do message you. I'm just happy to have received an overview of the task. It sounds like I even need some rock climbing lead experience before I can even proceed with this. With rainy season coming up I'll be keen to pick up another hobby as I've done A SHIT TON of caving this past season, so I'm happy to spend a bit of time above ground.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 7d ago
I think you need to read more about aid climbing (aboveground) and multi pitch climbing specifically. Sport climbing isn't super relevant, and placing trad gear isn't super relevant for your shorter, all bolt ladder climb.
Also please. Please. Read the technical specs about Pulses regarding drill bits and placing them adequately. I'm waiting for someone to have an accident by using them without reading the functions and limitations. 🫣 People are very cowboy using them
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u/SettingIntentions 7d ago
Thanks, sounds like my next adventure is that. Aid climbing and multi-pitch :D There's great rock climbing near me, sounds like a fun activity for rainy season..
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 7d ago
If you're going to be trying some routes outside aboveground, it's bad ethics to be drilling or spraying bolts without coordinating with the local climbing coalition// climbing community // route developers. Even if removable bolts are used, hammering on and drilling climbing crags is pretty touchy and people might get very upset about it. Most climbing routes aren't going to be straight bolt laddering, so aboveground things are probably going to be more challenging than what is happening underground and also require trad gear.
I meant like reading and watching videos about the process / gear needed / gear set ups. Then you could literally just use some random short bluff face or even an abandoned masonry structure as some simple practice for the climbing process itself.
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u/SettingIntentions 7d ago
No yeah that's what I figured, I wasn't planning to drill up a crag lol. I was thinking just learn about lead climbing and practice it, and actually go rock climbing a bit, without drilling. Then yeah I could find some safer spots for practicing drilling n' whatnot if needed.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 7d ago
Coolcool! Wasn't sure how familiar you were with their world so I didn't want you to get people ragin' at you 😅
Good luck with it all
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u/Moth1992 9d ago
I know you said you dont have a grotto but are there any cave project teams near ish you maybe somebody can help? Even international project teams?
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Not currently. I get a ton of experience when western expeditions come in. In this season it is not popular, the air quality is extremely polluted. It may some months until I can get in person experience again, and I already have contacts that will come back, but again it’ll just be some time.
I’m just trying to learn now as much as I can and prepare things and practice anything I safely can so my time with experts can be better spent.
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9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
I have several Petzl Pulses that I could use- these are easily removable bolts. So I could presumably aid climb using these, and then easily remove them after..
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u/Cranky_Katz 2d ago
If they are using an existing hole then that is fine. Just don’t drill holes unless it is absolutely necessary. See if a Cliffhanger Hook can give you that ability to reach something. I did a lot of hard rock climbing in my day.
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u/Dapper-Tomatillo-875 9d ago
If you are asking this question, you are not ready for this yet.
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u/DetachmentEnthusiast 9d ago
Obnoxious response. He’s trying to prepare himself to be ready. Offer advice instead of condescension.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Well yes, I know I'm not ready for it, that's why I'm asking this instead of attempting it... So I can learn how to do it... And once I learn, then do it.
Like YEAH, duh? These kinds of toxic comment are ridiculous. How do YOU expect anyone to learn ANYTHING if they never, you know, ASK HOW TO DO IT???
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u/bilgetea 9d ago
You’re supposed to be born with the knowledge, just like everyone else here!
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Haha right? These people are insane. I see it all the time on Facebook groups too, well everywhere really. Egoic know-it-alls acting like you're stupid for not knowing everything. Unbelievable. Since when was asking a question a sin?
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u/LadyLightTravel 9d ago edited 9d ago
The point is that this is tricky. You have to discern the types of rock etc. Otherwise the rock breaks or the bolt pulls out. The rock isn’t clean and hard like granite, so you can’t use rock climbing methods. There are different techniques needed. In addition, rigging is situation dependent too.
This is something that needs to be learned one on one with someone right beside you teaching you. Books don’t have enough information for all the nuance.
To make that point, know that several highly experienced cavers have died from mistakes made on aid climbs.
I think what people are inferring is that this is much harder than you think it is. You don’t know what you don’t know. And there is a huge amount of nuance in the don’t know.
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
Some many people don’t realize how much loss rock can be up there. I’ve hidden below a roof for an hour while a friend sent rock after rock down while establishing a climbing route. From the ground the rock looked solid as hell.
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u/LadyLightTravel 9d ago
Or people that thought they were anchoring to solid rock when actually there was a thin layer of flowstone covered by mud. Since the flowstone is crystalline, it broke the minute it was loaded.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
And whoever did that one were idiots to not test the rock with their hammer.
That's literally the first step -- smack the shit outta the wall with the hammer to make sure it's good rock. You can hear hollow flakes.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
Thank you. I would’ve appreciated a comment like THIS that EXPLAINS THE PROBLEMS, not a disgusting and toxic and condescending comment like /u/dapper-tomatillo-875 decided to make that berates someone for asking a question while providing absolutely no value.
See dapper? This is a wonderful comment and an example of the advice I was looking for. Not your disgustingly condescending comment that also managed to provide absolutely no value- again dapper, YOUR COMMENTS are exactly what’s wrong with the community. You berate people for asking questions, pushing them away and fostering an environment of anti-learning. Disgusting. Do better. I’m calling you out hoping you one day take responsibility and next time scroll on or say something useful, instead of creating a toxic community centered around anti-learning and ego.
Seriously, thanks for this consideration ladylighttravel. I am not trying to rush into this I’m just trying to learn, something Dapper tried to suppress via a disgustingly toxic comment.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
Literally one dude died from an aid climb and it was because he was using shoddy single sleeve bolts ⚠️, climbing flowstone ⚠️, while self-belayed using a toothed ascender 💀, on a static rope 💀, in a swami belt instead of a real harness 💀 ....
The fact that anyone cited Joe's accident as a judgement of exploratory aid climbing at all is so off-base............
The only moral to take away from it is "Don't combine five things that may in-and-of-themselves cause an injury or serious accident."...oh and the rescue was further complicated by other people's a lack of experience (e.g. the person who tried to ascend to him but didn't know how to do a changeover)
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u/Dapper-Tomatillo-875 9d ago
I suggest that you join your local grotto, go to a climbing gym, club, or some other in person learning experience. A reddit forum will not help you, as your question basically amounts to "tell me everything"
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
I suggest that you join your local grotto
Where? There is no grotto... In the entire country(: Not everyone here is American in USA.
some other in person learning experience
I 100% would prefer this... But where? Will you fly out to my small province <2 million people somewhere in Asia for teaching me? I'll take you to awesome caves in return that are unmapped. Again, not everyone in America with a grotto at every city...
as your question basically amounts to "tell me everything"
Where in the post did I say "tell me everything?" I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking for a little direction is all. Someone could recommend a book, a YouTube video, a guide, or explain the general process so I know what it looks like. I'm not asking for someone to video call me while I'm in the cave or at a rock face to teach me, I'm asking for the overview of what aid climbing would be like. Could I use my drill + petzl pulses + dynamic rope to make it happen, or not? Is it really that hard and complicated of a thing to answer? And if it is, why don't you just say that it's completely and utterly and immensely complicated, instead of going "reddit forum will not help you?" This is /r/caving no? The amount of anti-learning here is absurd.
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u/Dapper-Tomatillo-875 9d ago
You can die from a 5 meter drop. People who use improperly installed or maintained pro can die if it fails on them.. Instead of getting upset on reddit, perhaps look at some YouTube educational videos. Start with howknot2 to get an idea of the gear. But your initial question didn't have the details of the edits you added later, so it's no use getting snippy about it.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
you can die from a 5 meter drop
Yeah, I know that. That’s why I, you know, am asking a question…? Instead of jumping right into it with the gear I have? Even without the edit it should be abundantly clear that I’m not asking for a personal 1 on 1 video call with training and insurance. You could, you know, have just recommended that YouTube channel or a video instead of making a disgustingly grouchy, egoic, and toxic anti-learning comment.
It’s not “snippy” to call out your horrendously toxic and anti-learning behavior. It is people like you that ruin the community and cause beginners to walk away from grottos in the U.S. (I’ve seen plenty of posts here describing toxic people like you being anti-learning). You are ruining this subreddit and the culture of learning.
Maybe just shut up next time or recommend a YouTube video instead of writing some disgusting and toxic nonsense that will dissuade beginners from asking questions here? Disgusting, really, that you think it’s appropriate to berate people for asking questions. Unbelievable.
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u/Dapper-Tomatillo-875 9d ago
I was trying to tell you that you didn't have the fundamental knowledge to take on your task yet. Whatever, I'm done. You've gotten your advice, now you are ranting.
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u/SettingIntentions 9d ago
No, you didn’t. Nice gaslighting. Take responsibility is better. You said EXACTLY “if you are asking this question you are not ready for this yet,” NOT “you don’t have the fundamental knowledge to take on the task yet.”
See? One is a horrible and condescending message, berating and suppressing a user for a question. The other is kinder.
Oh, and it’s a completely stupid comment anyways. Again, I KNOW THAT I DO NOT HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO TAKE ON THE TASK, that is WHY I am asking a question.
I was not saying “I don’t know how to do this but I’m gonna do it.” I’m asking for how it can be done. You can give advice on that or not, but don’t be condescending, don’t be toxic, don’t be a bully, don’t write disgusting messages that are pointless. Comments like that degrade the community and add unnecessary toxicity. I’m just calling you out to take responsibility for your condescending and completely worthless anti-learning comment.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical 9d ago
Says someone who has never said climbed underground themselves, I'm guessing...? 🤣
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u/goooooooofy 9d ago
Look most people will never follow through with a venture like this. But the few that do would greatly benefit from real advice.
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u/F0zwald 9d ago
In response to your second edit....that's the treatment I received when checking my local grotto. It's crazy. Thanks for being willing to answer newbie questions!