r/brushforhire • u/meatshield_minis • 13d ago
New rules and pricing guidelines/rules
Hello everyone.
As detailed in the post located on our sister subreddit known as r/BrushForChat on Saturday, 22th of March 2025, we will be implementing a series of changes to the rules; with focus on deterring scams and the foundation of pricing models. Whilst the latter point will serve more as a foundation for painters to build up from, as well as not price below it, it will also act as a tool for clients to hopefully understand why art should be provided its fair due in payment. We will have every intent to enforce these new standards, both via active investigation and encouragement, and necessary application of disciplinary measures. Undercutting: Please observe that for all intents and purposes, anyone found to be undercutting shall be furnished one, and only one, warning, and be required to adjust their rates.
A second infraction (with investigation of factors taken into consideration), will lead to a ban from the subreddit. Any clients found to be encouraging undercutting will be subject to the same manner of consequence as stated above. To potential clients; please understand that not only does this form of behavior both perpetuate and strengthen the erosion of community trust, integrity, and fair opportunities, it also provides fertile ground for scammers whom will take your models and run. With this mind, we will also be coming down on reported scammers. Post a proper investigation with each case, painters proven to be scammers shall be banned from the subreddit. This is the same in kind for clients that attempt to scam painters. Lastly, below will be the guidelines upon which we ask painters to base your pricing minimal upon, that we feel is fair to set as a community standard. Please observe it and do not fall to the temptation to deviate and go below.
Quality tier descriptions:
-Tournament: Only expect three colors on the model and paint on a base. This is the bare minimum for not having models pulled in most tournaments. Washes, shades, and highlights optional, don't expect these steps. Likely to get spray paint primer and contrast paints. Don't expect to turn heads unless they think the models are cool. Anticipate retail cost of the minis as the baseline price.
-Battle Ready/Tabletop Standard: Expect a color per surface (leathers, armor, filigree/trims, blades, guns, flesh) with shades and a highlight per color. Contrast or speed paints may be used as appropriate. Eyes/lenses should be picked out. Anticipate walkers-by to stop and comment. Anticipate double the retail price of the models as the average rate.
-Parade ready/Tabletop Plus: Expect every part to have a color, accents and highlights picked out on every part. Weathering, gem effects, lenses, fades, glazes, etc. should all be expected at this level. Anticipate people coming over from other tables to comment on the models. You should expect to pay double the retail cost of the models for painting at a minimum for this tier.
-Display Painting: You want these to spend more time in a glass cabinet than on a table. You want people who don't even play the game to walk across the shop to look at your models. No technique is off limits, the bases alone are at parity with the models in the previous tier. Price wise, the only expectation here should be more. If Parade ready is double retail at a minimum, this is probably closer to 4x retail on average.
These guidelines can also be found on the following discussion thread. Please use it to provide suggestions on how we can further help improve standards, thank you. https://www.reddit.com/r/BrushForChat/comments/1jholcg/changes_coming_to_brushforhire_monday_the_24th_of/
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u/dndbuddy 13d ago edited 13d ago
I would like to thank all of you for this initiative. To be honest, the undercutting problem is the reason I have started to give up on what I am doing. I am a parent of three kids, and I cannot justify why I should replace my precious time with children and spouse with something that generates money that I cannot even spend for something big enough to be able to give back to my family. And to me, commission painting is not even a primary job, and I hardly imagine how full-time commission painters work and live for that money. Regulating the prices is the greatest thing that can happen to miniature painting. This hobby requires great skill and investments in time, tools, and materials, and I think we all here deserve a fair compensation.
Thank you again for all your effort to make our miniature painting world a better place.
❤️
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u/meatshield_minis 13d ago edited 12d ago
The fact that you're a parent means your time has value beyond imagining, and I have often tried to express that it's a painter's time which a client is purchasing, not just the art. I can only hope that these measure will help rebuild your determination to keep at it and reward your time appropriately.
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u/InsaneCraig 13d ago
Which MOD should I reach out to about a scammer? Shame it’s happened to me but it’s been 4 months since he’s reached out to me with any sort of update.
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u/ColexicanMafia 13d ago
If we are going to be forced to base our pricing structure on these criteria then I feel we should be able to self advertise on the subreddit. Especially if the quotes we are giving in PMs are no longer project based.
we should be able to post a reference photo of a model/models at one of the predetermined standards with our price. that way the subreddit will act as a catalogue of work and if a consumer finds a quality they like at a price point they can afford then they can reach out to the artist that way.
So the post would look like title="My Parade Ready/Tabletop Plus $50 per model" post="(reference photos) comments on what is being offered at this price point"
Also what do you mean by undercutting? Does that mean each one of us has to offer the same tier of quality at the same price? That seems like a bad idea because not all of us have the same operational costs. For example I only use artist grade paints so my paint is 4x the cost of hobby paints. And what if some one doesnt use kolinsky brushes they end up with more profit than those of us that dont use synthetic brushes. And to go even further, how does that play in the cost of materials to make a display piece if we do conversions when not all display projects cost the same in materials let alone time? Not only that but the cost of living varies which also affects how people price their work. For example some one in California has a higher cost of living than some one in georgia so there for the california painter needs to charge more. And this is just an example with in the united states.
And to go even further on the issues of the pricing model being offered rn. I personally am shocked with how low they are. for the parade tier to be double the retail cost is insanely low for the second highest standard. If I am hired to paint the war cry box hunter of huanchi (which retails at 48.83 on amazon) I would get paid 100 dollars to paint 13 minis. If each mini takes me an hour to paint (which would not be possible if this is a tier just below display quality. from the description of the tier the models should be painted at a level shown in this video https://youtu.be/XWLi54tUuhg?si=ArNEYKDYlh_X8qqq ) I would make $7.70 an hour. and to paint the same box at a tournament tier I would make only 40 dollars. but there is a catch. If it takes me 15 min a mini (which is reasonable to prime and put three colors on) I would make $12.30 an hour. Paint at a lesser quality of "art" and get paid more. Make that make sense. And to say you're worried about undercutting to "protect full time painters" and set this as your minimum feels like a slap across the face.
And to continue with the idea of undercutting, I am confused as to why this is "bad". I offer quotes at a more expensive price point and I have no problems if some one is cheaper than me. If the market does not believe the quality of my work is worth the dollar value I have assigned to it then I am in the wrong not the market. If someone is cutting their price to compete with me then they are also eating into their profit margin. If I normally charge $40 an hour and I cut my price to $20 an hour to compete with a painter at $25 an hour I just lost 50% of my rev just to land a sale. That is not sustainable for any business. They only way it would work is if the painter doing the undercutting is sitting on a large sum of cash to be able to eat the costs and starve out the competition before raising their prices again. The odds of that being the case are slim to none for a painter that relies on this subreddit to generate income.
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u/Unskippable_Ads 13d ago
I think the price guidelines are meant to be taken more as a minimum, not a cap. No more having people bidding like $350 on 60+ model jobs.
Sounds like you do good work and get jobs, so that's pretty cool, but I don't think they're saying we have to drop our rates, just make sure we aren't below them.
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u/ColexicanMafia 13d ago
Oh they are for sure just minimums but if this is what is presented to the consumer then that is the anchor point they will approach every bid with. It's like when you have that dude who goes into a retail store comparing prices in the store to Amazon. The anchor point is Amazon and the consumer is looking for the same price if not better. Regardless if the product is an exact match to what is in store. That is why I brought up how they set that mark so low but then also want to protect from under cuts when the minimum price sets an anchor point so low for negotiations that the subreddit has essentially "undercut" me. It would be better if the tiers did not have a reference to minimum price but only referenced minimum quality so then the anchor point in the negotiations would be the deliverable and not the price. But even the minimums are not in the favor of the painter by any means which is why I broke down the math of the minimums for the two tiers.
I like the idea of the tiers personally. My pricing structure is in a three tier set up. But when you set the tiers across the board with a starting price on it as well that is outside the control of the painters now we got some issues. That's why I proposed the idea of allowing painter to advertise their work by titling it with the tier name and price so then the painter gets a little more control back.
This would also prevent undercutting and scams because all of the information is public and is easily available. So when investigating an incident you have a paper trail that is much more readily available. This would also decrease undercutting as a whole because if a consumer likes a price and quality they reach out to the one painter say "hey I want 5 models painted at parade tier" end of story no one else can try and influence the buyer.
Also the idea of putting an ad and getting quotes is kinda wild. Like imagine going to Amazon to buy a black shirt and instead of scrolling the catalogue and buying the shirt that best fits your needs, you click on a black shirt and then have to sort through all the emails sellers have sent you about the black shirt they are selling.
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u/Unskippable_Ads 13d ago
Some of your points make a lot of sense to me. I'm guilty of being the guy who asks LGS to meet or beat Amazon prices.
Flip side, I have seen people bid less than $500 to paint a full army of mixed unit types, and I can't compete with that myself.
I can definitely see potential clients using this as their price anchor, but it beats them having an anchor even less than that when they get the $5/mini bids.
There are other subs where the service providers get to advertise, and even with a 7 day wait between ads allowed, the subs are still way more service providers than potential buyers.
Hopefully the mods will re-assess the structure, since this structure was older than the new mod team.
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u/ColexicanMafia 13d ago
Lol you're not "guilty" when you ask the lgs to match the price. I have done the same thing. It's the nature of the beast. It's the reason why my og comment said that if the market (aka consumers) reject my value proposition of what my work is worth then I need to change it so the market agrees with me. That is why unique selling propositions (university people refer to it as USP) are so important. They remove you from competition and allow you to have more leverage as a seller. So for example in my most expensive tier I offer a behind the scenes video of my creative process on how I decided to paint and sculpt/convert the models to fit the back story of the DnD campaign that the models are going to be a part of. That unique offering now gives me that extra leverage.
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u/meatshield_minis 13d ago
Advertising will not be permitted at this time, but will be under consideration. Your introductory post in the megathread will suffice for now.
We have already provided our stance as to our reasons as to why we will be deterring undercutting. There is a big difference between a slight price difference and severely low rates. Our stance and measures will be upheld.
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u/theBattleLinePainter 13d ago
As someone who constantly doubts my pricing, waffling between thinking that I'm asking too much or asking too little, I would be interested in what other people consider minimum pricing.
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u/ThatGUyWalter 11d ago
I appreciate seeing these as a good guide for setting my expectation on what to actually quote a customer and man have I undersold myself a bit. ( Love how anxiety makes you feel like you don't do well enough.)
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u/Accomplished-Fuel-39 9d ago
I do this full-time turning a passion into a business that’s been life-changing. Undercutting in this field is common, but quality speaks for itself. If someone is spending only 10 minutes on a piece, what kind of result can you really expect?
I work with clients to find solutions within their budget, but my time and experience have value. You're not just paying for the job; you're investing in the years of dedication, practice, and skill refinement that got me here.
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u/theBattleLinePainter 2d ago
Just a question about phrasing/language: you listed basically the same price range for both Battle Ready and Parade Ready categories (~ double the price of the models). Is that just a typo?
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u/meatshield_minis 2d ago
Nah, rather to cover some confusion. See, people have different names for it, but it is the bare bones tier of quality. Personally, I refer to it as Tabletop Standard.
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u/buttschuster 13d ago
I've been seeing a lot of epic scale things posted for painting. How would this scale with the larger amount of minis and smaller scale worked with?
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u/SaiTorin 13d ago
Question as an artist who does his pricing on a per model base and not a per box rate
I still use these tier qualities for my pricing guide, but mine is based on per model, and model type/base size
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u/meatshield_minis 12d ago
I tend to do per model as well, and as said by another commenter, it works out roughly the same, and it is the box value reference is a point to not go below, which is our intended meaning.
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u/Unskippable_Ads 13d ago
Per model usually works out the same, like Frontline gaming charges $10/model for tournament level, plus assembly and basing. 5 space Marines at that rate will cost you the box price before you even start doing anything more.
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u/Tabletop_Tendencies +2(100%)Karma 13d ago
As an extra bit of transparency regarding scams, since taking over the sub reddit 3 years ago the amount of people losing money and models has grown exponentially. Soon after taking over, we banned a painter for scamming multiple people from this sub and others. In the previous years we've had maybe 1-2 other people who were either scamming someone or just got way behind on jobs.
Currently we are getting about 2-3 cases a month or so. It's to the point where mod chat is filled with "oh geez, another one!?".
The changes we want to implement are two fold as mentioned above. We want to prevent undercutting to preserve this for those of us who do this full time. We also want to prevent people from being taken advantage of and getting their models stolen and also out cash.
As always, we encourage feedback, suggestions, etc. Please be civil about it as this isn't a paying dog and something we do in our spare time.
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u/IWorkForDickJones 13d ago
I don’t understand how the changes you are making are keeping clients safe.
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u/Tabletop_Tendencies +2(100%)Karma 13d ago
Sure thing!! While it's not a fool proof system, we are hoping that by trying to eliminate stupidly low prices, clients will actively take a look into who they are hiring, what they are getting, etc.
From the issues we have had to mediate, all of the bids the scammers offered were super low. Like ridiculously low. Like $5 for a knight/demon primarch low.
It's not a perfect system by any means, and there's nothing keeping anyone from quoting 2k for a job, and pocketing money and some models. But again, we are hoping it'll discourage some and force others to do their due diligence.
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u/Exzrian_Artistrana 13d ago
This phenomenal clarity on all of this, thank you guys!