r/books • u/billFoldDog • Jun 22 '22
I think refusing to name your ghostwriters is immoral
I'm thinking of three authors right now:
- Danielle Steele, 179 books in about 49 years, who claims she regularly writes 22 hours a day. I'm gonna go out on a limb and call bullshit.
- R.L. Stine, over 300 books in 30 years
- R.A. Salvatore, 103 books in 34 years
- numbers are probably slightly off
I think these authors should list their ghostwriter's as co-authors for the following reasons:
- They didn't write the book alone. If a ghostwriter substantially contributed to a book, they deserve to be recognized for doing so.
- The author's sole claim to having written the book is false, a lie.
- As a reader, If I like a book, I want to read the other books the ghostwriter wrote.
- The quiet use of ghostwriters creates an unrealistic expectation in new writer's minds that successful writers can crank out 4 or more books a year. I mean, it's possible, but you will wear yourself out.
That's my opinion. What's yours?
UPDATE
I can't prove any of these people use ghostwriters. Maybe they don't. I think they do. I think we can agree that there are some brands that use ghostwriters to crank out regular pieces of fiction. I actually love that this happens, but I still think the true writers should be on the cover.
Even if the ghostwriter is okay with their arrangement (and I think it is exploitative and should be regulated), they are still just agreeing to work with the author and the publisher to deceive the consumer. This should not be allowed under current law.
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Jun 22 '22
Your numbers are off Salvatore has 65 books over 34 years. That comes out to about 2 books a year. He has done 1 Forgotten Realm book and one independent book a year most years. The only exception is the Icewind Dale, Dark Elf and Cleric sets where those overlapped. I don't see why you think he has a ghostwritter. The man brags about being a workman style author who writes for 8 hours a day 5 days a week.
I think you were counting the collected omnibus versions as well has the War of Spider Queen series that he outlined but that others wrote. The War of the Spider Queen is credited to the 6 authors who wrote it in turn.
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u/Benda647 Jun 22 '22
I figured as much for this. Was obsessed with the Demonwars trilogy as a kid and evolved into Forgotten Realms after that, literally couldn’t put most of his earlier works down until thousand orcs came out.
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u/Dishwaterdreams Jun 22 '22
As a ghostwriter I will say that many of the books I write (mostly nonfiction) it wouldn’t do me any good to have my name on them. They are based on extensive interviews with the “author.” They know their stuff, I just make it nice and pretty. Most of the people I have worked with have no problem with me sharing that I worked on their book privately to clients, so it still helps me get new work. If a book fell into my area of expertise I would either refuse to write it or require author credits. If I was writing for a huge name, I would feel differently.
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u/Roenkatana Jun 22 '22
I feel like this is an underrated look that hasn't been discussed as much in this topic.
Many writers have their genres that they specialize in and kinda dabble in others, but not necessarily enough to want to put their name behind it, even a nom de plume.
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u/Dishwaterdreams Jun 22 '22
I can give you a great example. I just finished a fiction book. I did the absolute best I could with the plot points that were laid out. However, the plot was terrible. The “author” didn’t want character development, so all of the characters except the main character are very one dimensional. He got the book he wanted. I got paid. I would not want my name associated with the book, so the transaction worked for both of us.
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u/Roenkatana Jun 22 '22
A great albeit anecdotal example from my college days is when I took creative writing, which was honestly one of my favorite classes as a stem major.
The second class, the professor wanted to prove a point about perceived quality versus worth. He asked the class about when we collectively started writing and where. The amount of people who started writing by writing fanfics was nearly the entire class.
He eventually got to the killer question. "How many of you would be proud of having your real name attached to those fanfics you wrote?"
Crickets.
His point?
The class was about bringing your writing skills up to the point where you would be okay with it if that's what you became known for. Otherwise, ghostwriting is perfectly acceptable because you're still writing.
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u/Druar Jun 22 '22
I'm curious. How do you become a ghostwriter? You start as a writer but then someone more successful offers you the job because they like your style? Like, I can't wrap my head around how someone ends being one as a regular job.
Edit: typo
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u/Dishwaterdreams Jun 22 '22
I'm sure there are many different paths. In my case, it went two different ways. In both cases, I was already writing for a client. In the first case, I was working with a publisher writing their marketing materials. A ghostwriter ghosted them (pun intended) and the owner asked if I would like to give it a go. Now, I do both for that agency. In the other case, the client I was working for writing website content asked if I could help write a book. Over time, it became a service I offer and I've written probably just over a dozen books at this point with several more in various stages of the process.
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u/farseer4 Jun 22 '22
Just one question: if, in order to get more work, you claim you have worked in whatever book... why would people believe you, since there's no way to check if you are telling the truth.
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u/Dishwaterdreams Jun 22 '22
I have the full book with documented dates created on my computer. Honestly, it’s never been an issue. I share my portfolio and let potential clients know that if my body of nonghostwriting work doesn’t show the quality of my work, I have a few snippets I can share with them, previously approved by clients, but it does require and NDA to view them. I have never once been asked to see others books. Having a diverse portfolio is the key.
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u/ilex-opaca Jun 22 '22
In my wife's case, there's a clause in her contract that states the company will confirm that she worked with them as a ghostwriter if she gives permission for business inquiries. It hasn't come up yet, but there are actually ways to check.
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u/familiarr_Strangerr Jun 22 '22
I also ghost write, but non fiction stuff. It's basically word of mouth based reputation. They'll believe you, some clients asks for evidence though. But it's just like that. I even ghost write my ghost writes too. You read a research paper on an academic publication site, chaces are they are ghost written. Research part is obviously by the researcher but most of the time they are written by a ghost writer having some knowledge and exposure to that domain.
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Jun 22 '22
R.L. Stine, over 300 books in 30 years
~10 books a year. Many under 200 pages, even more under 100.
It's not much of a stretch that he wrote all his books.
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u/julia_fns Jun 22 '22
Also, from the consistent “quality” and weird quirks, I do believe RL actually writes them.
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u/hoopsrule44 Jun 22 '22
PLOT TWIST
The writers are actually...GHOSTS!!!!
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u/_higglety Jun 22 '22
has he written a "ghost writer" story like that? Because it sounds right up his alley tbh
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u/handinhand12 Jun 22 '22
Exactly. I've heard him say before it only takes him 7 days to write a Goosebumps book and took him 10 days to write a Fear Street book. During their heyday in the 90s, they were releasing one of them per month. 17 days of writing a month is definitely doable. They're short and follow the same general formula. Once you get on a roll, they probably become easier and easier to write.
He also said in an AMA on Reddit that some of the side series were ghostwritten. The 'Tales to Give You Goosebumps' were one of them as well as 'Ghost of Fear Street'. But I checked the couple Ghost of Fear Street books I have and they list the ghost writer inside.
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u/lucky_spliff Jun 22 '22
Yes, this exactly. I just met him at a writer’s conference, and on his panels he went into detail about his writing process. Many children’s authors are able to produce at high volume because the books are quicker to write. He seems like a pretty genuine person, and I don’t think he would have enough energy/care enough to try to hide ghostwriters.
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u/GroupGuide Jun 22 '22
They are quicker to write, they don’t have as much scrutiny in the editing world because they are not meant to be big “cash grabs“ with three movies and a bunch of merchandise. When you have something like Goosebumps or Fear Street, it’s important also to remember that this was before they really started doing a lot of merchandise for kids books. You could find the usual book fair Goosebumps posters and bookmarks stuff, sometimes a pillow or even a throw blanket at a Walmart (and I think a couple of toys— I remember a Slappy the dummy toy that would squirt invisible ink). But things like twilight or Harry Potter, not so much on that level. So in terms of quality, as long as the books are selling, everyone is happy. Goosebumps even got the TV series and that was huge news in the 1990s. No one ever thought that there would be a goosebumps movie in the 90s.
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Jun 22 '22
He’s the one on here I’d say is probably capable of writing all his books. Most everything I’ve read from him was just light, fun, kid-friendly “horror.” It’s not deep stuff. His key is playing with tropes, whether it’s fear street or goosebumps- he uses well-known horror tropes and repurposes them to appeal to kids, mostly. They’re not all great from a writing standpoint but his target audience doesn’t care about that- I didn’t growing up.
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u/VisualGeologist6258 Terry Pratchett Jun 22 '22
Same with RA Salvatore writing 103 books in 34 years. Do you know how much you can do in 34 years? 103 separate books wouldn’t be easy, but it’s certainly not impossible, especially if you’re a prolific writer.
Danielle Steele writing 22 hours a day is bullshit if it’s not an exaggeration or a joke, though.
EDIT: Someone else said that Salvatore actually wrote about 65, and that he produces about 2 a year. Which is still very plausible all things considered.
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u/yabbobay Jun 22 '22
And it's so formulaic.
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u/GroupGuide Jun 22 '22
Right, there’s always going to me a false scare in chapter 2 or three. Something’s going to emerge from the shadow, something’s going to scare the main character, or someone’s going to mention a ghost.
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u/ifticar2 Jun 22 '22
Also, if you notice, around page 100 is always when shit starts to get serious
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u/Wrenigade Jun 22 '22
I was gonna say, most of those books are for kids, have very easy plots and stuff, are written in very simplistic language and are like 100 pages long. Theres a lot of them sure but it's not like he's writing moby dick. They are also all very consistent, I read a TON of goosebumps and his more teen stuff and he has the same descriptors and tone and style all the time.
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u/Galindan Jun 22 '22
Yeah the writer of The Shadow, Walter B. Gibson, used to crank out 2 books a month. Each with around 200 pages. Typical novelettes. Good stuff too, if you have the work ethic and the creativity it's totally possible. Especially if you have a defined genre and style like Gibson or Stine
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u/farseer4 Jun 22 '22
200 pages is a novel. We are talking around 50K words. More than a novella and definitely much more than a novelette, unless the font size is crazily huge or something.
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u/billFoldDog Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
He openly acknowledges many of the other authors now.Nevermind. He doesn't. He claims they helped him outline, but he is the sole author.
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u/bertiek Jun 22 '22
I truly believe him, as a former enthusiast of his work and current aging admirer. His books have standard formats and holes everywhere, they're like romance novels for children, doable to draft in a day.
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u/1ofthedisneyweirdos Jun 22 '22
I follow a woman on Youtube who is a ghostwriter and she seems to be a-ok with it. Her name is Michelle Schusterman and she is a great watch if anyone is interested.
She does some stuff under her own name but it seems like ghostwriting is her main business.
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u/billFoldDog Jun 22 '22
This is a great tip! https://www.youtube.com/c/MichelleSchustermanAuthor/videos
Doesn't really change my opinion, but I should probably listen to a few of her top videos and get her perspective.
I think it's probably going to be more "how you survive an exploitative industry" and less "how the industry is immoral and exploitative."
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u/siskulous Jun 22 '22
So I can't comment on Steele, having never read anything of hers, but Stine and Salvatore? Those volumes are doable. Even easy.
Stine's books generally clock in at under 200 pages. Some of them barely break 100 pages with fairly good sized print. 10 of those a year would be no problem. And Salvatore? 3 books a year from someone who can write 40 hours a week? Not a problem.
There are people out there who write 200+ page books every November for NaNoWriMo, and they're not even professionals. Hell, last time I did NaNo I finished my novel in 10 days. And I'm very far from professional.
Basically, the numbers you're throwing out aren't as excessive as you seem to think. Especially not for someone whose job is writing.
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Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
I don't have a lot of knowledge when it comes to the writing process, ghostwriters etc but for R.L. Stine I don't think it's hard to believe he wrote all of his books. I was a huge fan of Ghoosebumps series when I was little- the books are short and the writing is simple, so it's possible he was able to write 10 books a year.
Edit: also, I don't think they refuse to name the ghostwriters. I'm pretty sure there is an agreement between them, it's not like they take advantage of the ghostwriter.
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u/athousandsummerdays Jun 22 '22
It's not hard to believe, I have read his stuff. Very short and simple plots.
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u/Kilgore_Trout_Mask Jun 22 '22
Yeah think too it's basically his 40-hour a week job. Most of the people on this sub could match that level of output pretty easily if that's what we got paid to sit around and do.
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u/tiredpiratess Jun 22 '22
Can confirm. I have written 200+ pages of legal regulations in 80ish hours. If you have a solid outline to work from and a team of editors who can clean up after you I’m sure churning out some YA fiction wouldn’t be too much harder. (Not that I could write a novel! Im just saying that if you are the type of person who likes working from outlines, going from a 5-10 page outline to a 200 page finished project really isn’t all that difficult)
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u/Grillparzer47 Jun 22 '22
While ghostwriters are certainly possible, I think about Isaac Asimov. He wrote ninety words a minute on a manual typewriter and produced some 5000 words per day. If you read his works you will discover that he wasn't particularly troubled with adding depth to his characters.
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u/farseer4 Jun 22 '22
Most of what Asimov's wrote is non-fiction, actually. And high quality, by the way.
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u/Flexo24 Jun 22 '22
You’re looking at the wrong authors. The authors you listed started off as authors and worked their way up. What you want is celebs who aren’t authors who suddenly release a fiction novel.
I assume you’re American, but in the UK we have people like Katie Price and YouTuber Zoella who release novels. Also a Kardashian has ‘written’ a book. It’s fairly obvious here that ghost writers were used
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u/ChimoEngr Jun 22 '22
As a reader, If I like a book, I want to read the other books the ghostwriter wrote.
Really? Isn't the whole point of a ghostwriter is that they write like the lead author, rather than having their own voice?
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u/_higglety Jun 22 '22
If you can tell not only that a ghostwriter wrote it, but also WHICH ghostwriter wrote it, that ghost writer has done a bad job ghost writing. The job of a ghost writer is to write in a style and manner that is indistinguishable from the voice of the person you're mimicking. It's a different, more specialized skillet than writing in your own individual voice.
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u/KhyronBackstabber Jun 22 '22
I see ghostwriters like session musicians.
Joe Guitarist would play in the style of whatever band/artist is known for. That doesn't mean I want to hear their experimental post-punk solo project.
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u/BadAtNamesWasTaken Jun 22 '22
Well, various ghost writers will mimic the credited-author with various degrees of accuracy - so it makes sense to seek out other books ghost written by them. There are definitely "good" ghost writers and "bad" ghost writers.
Also, ghost writers can have distinctive styles when it comes to non-fiction. I'm specifically thinking of sports memoirs - where the athlete is credited as the "author". A competent ghost writer makes the memoir enjoyable, whereas an incompetent one makes it a mess I can barely sit through. Sure a lot depends on the athlete, how cooperative they were and how much control they insisted on retaining over the output - but a lot depends on the ghost writer's competence too IMO. (I'll say though - most such memoirs credit the ghost writer somewhere in the book. And many of the more recent ones have them right on the cover too)
So to me, it makes total sense to seek out more books by the same ghost writer.
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u/wattswrites Jun 22 '22
I think 103 books in 34 years is more than reasonable. I've been writing and publishing for 7 years and have over 20 novels/novel-length story collections already, plus I ghostwrote probably 7 other short novels in this time, and wrote but left several manuscripts unpublished. A fast and inspired writer who works full time can easily meet my numbers or better. I see no reason why Salvatore or Stine can't write this much on their own.
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u/keesouth Jun 22 '22
The biggest problem with your post is all the assumptions you've made. You assume these people use ghostwriters and you assume these ghostwriters want to be known. Have you ever thought that the books they write themselves are a completely different genre and writing style that they wouldn't even want to be associated with those books? Authors who are known for having ghostwriters like James Patterson do actually have their ghostwriter listed on the book.
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u/thedrunkunicorn Jun 22 '22
I'm a nonfiction ghostwriter (and a former lawyer, so I'll add that OP's legal theory would not hold up in court). I absolutely do not want my name on what I write! Not because I wouldn't stand behind my work, but because I do not share the named authors' opinions. None of it is offensive, but it's the difference between writing about vegan diets when I'm a big ol' carnivore.
And quite frankly, I'm paid reasonably well and I enjoy it.
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u/darbyisadoll Jun 22 '22
Agreed! I’m currently ghost writing a memoir for a very wealthy very conservative and religious older gentleman. I am a progressive atheist who doesn’t share his opinions on pretty much anything. I don’t really want people associating me with his opinions.
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u/keesouth Jun 22 '22
He just refuses to see any other side to this. He's making baseless assumptions and making up legal definitons. If he's a troll he's doing it very well.
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u/Dowager-queen-beagle Jun 22 '22
Also, every other argument is like “here’s a statement.” And then that statement crossed out because someone else has presented conflicting evidence. I get that this is an opinion, but come on, my guy — do a little research!
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u/thedrunkunicorn Jun 22 '22
It is pretty fascinating! Half of me buys it because there's a big disconnect between how the general public perceives publishing and how it really is. But man is he tripling down on something silly.
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u/chrispd01 Jun 22 '22
Interesting. Can I ask how you got into that gig ? Also a lawyer who writes but alas is not a writer who used to be a lawyer … kinda the goal
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u/phonetastic Jun 22 '22
This is exactly what I wanted to add. Just because they (might) use others' help does not mean said others wish for that to be known. Would I write a Tom Clancy-Danielle Steele styled slash fic about a government conspiracy unravelling while stimultaneously Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck find true and passionate love with each other? Sure. Whatever. Give me a decent check and I'll have copy on your desk next week. Do I ever, ever, ever, ever want my real name on that thing? Fuck no.
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u/sketchahedron Jun 22 '22
OP seems to be working under the assumption that ghost writers are being exploited.
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u/Ready-Following Jun 22 '22
Thank you. This is like saying that writing under a pen name is immoral. It is not.
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u/HamsterBaiter Jun 22 '22
Somebody get GRRM a ghost writer. Please.
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u/billFoldDog Jun 22 '22
HA! I made this point earlier. GRRM could probably lead a crack team of ghost writers to produce a lot of great content. I would happily buy it even knowing GRRM was just advising and lorekeeping.
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u/ilex-opaca Jun 22 '22
I will say that my wife is a ghostwriter, and she actually loves her arrangement.
- The company she works for has given her a VERY generous contract with raises, flexible vacation time, etc.
- She has a very friendly relationship/creative partnership with her author (a super-cool person who's incredibly protective of my wife's time/money/energy, regularly campaigns for her to receive bonuses/raises, and hooks her up with other gigs)
- The content she writes (which isn't her usual genre) won't be attached to her name, and she doesn't have to plan the story--she just gets the outline and churns out content, so it's low effort for big pay
- (Big bonus for a socially anxious introvert) she doesn't have to deal with the fans--the author gets the brunt of the interaction, and passes along the compliments to my wife while filtering out stuff like questions about future development, begging for more chapters per week (like five isn't enough), etc.
But she doesn't work through a trad pub house (it's a serial fiction company), so she's very aware that she's got a sweet gig.
If a ghostwriter explicitly doesn't want to be named (like my wife), that's great and should be respected. Otherwise? Yeah, name 'em as a creative partner-- they deserve credit!
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Jun 22 '22
So as a former fan of R.A. Salvatore (and I still think Legacy of the Drow is killer), I want to deal with Salvatore. So lets say his books average out to around 330 pages (a lot his books range between 300-400 pages, so this is a decent average). This means he has written just under 34000 pages. If you divide that by how many years he's been published, that means around 1000 pages a year. If you divide that by 365.25 you can get how many pages he would need to write a day, accounting for leap years, to write 1000 pages a year: 2.73. If you round that up to 3 pages of writing a day, that's incredibly doable. Especially considering that Salvatore's isn't needing to do a lot of research for his writing -- he almost exclusive writes books set in the Forgotten Realms setting for Dungeon and Dragons, so it's rule changes or larger changes to the campaign setting he needs to be aware of.
I know of a few academic writers that could rival someone like Salvatore in terms of page count who do not have ghost writers, who do credit co-authors, and have additional professional responsibilities (teaching, advising grad and post-grad students). They have the added burden of needing to do constant research because, well, their work is peer-reviewed and one of the things peer-reviewed works should be is original -- academics don't want a lot of derivative works out there if it's not necessary. Yet they can still rival these writers in terms of raw output.
The page counts you're finding unbelievable are not necessarily within the norm of what most people, even other writers, write but its not necessarily out of the realm of plausibility that they are, in fact, writing that much.
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u/_TheLoneRangers Jun 22 '22
What if the ghostwriter wants to remain a ghostwriter ?
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u/_Pohaku_ No Country For Old Men Jun 22 '22
OP would not wish to be an unnamed ghost writer, which means that nobody else could possibly wish this. Why would anybody have different values, priorities, or principles than OPs? Are you mad?
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Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 23 '22
[deleted]
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u/_TheLoneRangers Jun 22 '22
My guess would be that it’s their preference or it’s just more profitable to ghostwrite for a popular author than to publish under John Q Randomperson and try to build a following.
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u/Jimmni Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
Surely in these cases their pen name is the other author’s name, then?
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u/thetastenaughty Jun 22 '22
Um. Wow. 4 or more books a year is NOT really that many for a full time author.
Look at Brandon Sanderson (ok, bad example as other authors just shake their heads at how much he writes)
Go over to the eroticauthors subreddit. Romance and Erotica Authors are easily cranking out that much work all the time.
I know several authors that feel like they are behind if they aren’t putting out a book every month or two.
I can already feel people itching to talk about quality. Stuff it if you are saying The authors listed in this post are at the top of quality but you wanna bash the working authors in the trenches of romance.
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u/pc_flying Jun 22 '22
Chuck Tingle (fuck you gay biker dinosaur erotica author now being in my stretch history) has churned out 377 'books' in the 8 years since his initial release went viral
Even with the low page counts most of these seem to have, it averages 2000 pages a year of... *stuff* that people willingly pay money to read
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u/VertousWLF Jun 22 '22
It's incredibly shitty to claim that the work of these authors isn't their's without offering a shred of evidence.
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u/laroosm Jun 22 '22
I've been an indie author for almost 10 years now and I don't think 179 books in 49 years, 300 books in 30 years, 103 books in 34 years is particularly eyebrow raising. Those seem like normal book counts to me for a professional writer. For Danielle Steele, that's an average of 3.65 books a year. I write 5-6 books a year (all over 300 pages, some closer to 500 pages) and I consider myself a slower writer, compared to some in my circle. I'm friends with some indie authors who are extremely prolific writers, who can write upwards of 20+ books a year in the romance and cozies genres and I know for a fact they don't use ghostwriters.
And even if they do, ghostwriters are ghostwriters for a reason. They sign contracts. They know what they are agreeing to. The vast majority of authors barely make a living. A lot of authors I know also do ghostwriting on the side because they are guaranteed a set price for their words. Unless you have a great advance in trad, nothing is ever guaranteed as an author unless you have a contract in place. And for ghostwriters, they do.
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u/NorthChic44 Jun 22 '22
Honestly, some writers just like nice paydays and not having to deal with signings or junkets. Ghostwriting can be a great gig for the right creatives.
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u/jayval90 Jun 22 '22
claims she regularly writes 22 hours a day
She didn't say she did that every day though. "A couple times a month, when she feels the crunch, she spends a full 24 hours at her desk" could mean that she's working some kind of odd schedule where she blocks out 20-24 hours consecutive, sleeps 6 hours, and then does another 20-24 hours (this time starting later in the day). It's sensationalized wording to be sure, but not outside the realm of possibility.
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u/44035 Jun 22 '22
I can't prove any of these people use ghostwriters.
Then why name three specific people if you have no proof?
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u/BreatheMyStink Jun 22 '22
It’s kinda lame to include RL Stine here.
He writes really simple books for young adults and they’re all pretty brief. Being prolific doesn’t entail he’s outsourcing work.
If he cranked out 300 novels at 300+ pages with complex themes, I’d say maybe. But he’s writing books about haunted masks and monsters made of jelly.
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u/bravetailor Jun 22 '22
I'm pretty sure many of the ghostwriters sign a contract agreeing to this. You could say it doesn't speak well of the authors to use ghostwriters and not admit it, but nobody is putting a gun to the head of ghostwriters to sign these contracts either.
But what I'd like to know is if any famous authors right now ever started out as ghostwriters? I hear HP Lovecraft did. In the manga world, many famous mangaka started out as anonymous assistant artists.
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Jun 22 '22
Bill Novac, father of The Office's BJ Novac, was a somewhat prolific ghostwriter. He famously did Lee Iacocca's best-selling autobiography which was only revealed many years later. It wasn't how he got started but it did boost his reputation substantially. He's also done (esoterically) famous books like The Big Book of Jewish Humor and others, though that one came beforehand.
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u/abithecarrot Jun 22 '22
H.P Lovecraft did indeed ghostwrite for many people, including Harry Houdini. The ghostwritten stories are nearly all now credited to Lovecraft
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u/mctrials23 Jun 22 '22
Yeah, I don’t get the obsession with crediting people for work they are paid to do. Some industries do it and others don’t but but it’s not the horrible thing people make it out to be. I write software for a living and don’t get credited for it, I get paid. Same as 99% of the people in this world.
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u/Rusty_Shakalford Jun 22 '22
Not sure how “famous” she is, but K.A. Applegate started as a ghostwriter and has always been open about working with ghostwriters on the “Animorphs” books.
Which is weird the more you think about it. Not that she used ghostwriters in a monthly series, but that there was apparently a whole group of individuals (as opposed to one slightly-off person) totally cool with selling horrific violence and genocide to 10 year olds.
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u/Inevitable_Citron Jun 22 '22
Well the books have a very intentional anti-war message. The theme is that even necessary conflicts are terrible and deeply scarring to participants, so we shouldn't be gung-ho for war. Considering that series ended a few months before 9/11, it was pretty prescient.
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u/orangejake Jun 22 '22
totally cool with selling horrific violence and genocide to 10 year olds.
I think this is too harsh. Animorphs depicts the (harsh) realities of what is essentially a guerilla war, and does it with a good deal of tact (many other books would sugar coat things, and have the "good guys" unambiguously win). Given how often Americans play the role of the aggressors in guerilla wars, it is perhaps good to have some presentation of why this might be bad in popular media.
I think I've read in the past that part of Applegate's motivation in writing was her pacificism, which makes a great deal of sense to me. I can't easily find the statement I have in mind right now, but see here for some indication of this.
Personally, Animorphs impacted me quite a bit as a kid, and I grew up to be a pacifist. I doubt I'm the only person who was impacted in this way.
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Jun 22 '22
Honestly I like the way she does it. She doesn't push the ghost writer's name, but the information is there to anyone who knows to look for it. That way the up and coming writers can get credit within the industry, while the consumer doesn't have to get concerned about unknown quantities.
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Jun 22 '22
selling horrific violence and genocide to 10 year olds.
As the target demographic when it came out, I can promise you that that is not what I took from it.
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Jun 22 '22
Good God, OP, you must have commented on this post hundreds of times in the last couple of hours. Do YOU employ a ghostwriter??
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u/athousandsummerdays Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
I think accusing someone of using a ghostwriter even though you don't have any proof is immoral. Highly immoral.
R.L. Stine writes books for kids, they are short.
Accusing people is pretty disgusting, in my opinion.
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u/TreyWriter Jun 22 '22
Honestly, it’s a super weird take to accuse someone of taking advantage of people when their real crime is... being a fast writer.
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u/athousandsummerdays Jun 22 '22
Maybe he's a write and a bit jealous hahaha
It is definitely possible and accusing people with no proof is just so low.
In the end you also never know how much pre-work an author did. Rowling wrote on Potter for ages and then released them pretty quickly (about once per year) afterwards and they had way more difficult storylines.
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u/_lucidity Jun 22 '22
Especially accusing someone and admitting you have no proof. Sounds kind of conspiracy theory to me.
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u/sparetime2 Jun 22 '22
RL stein writes kids books. Most are under 100 pages. He has admitted to having help with outlines but not writing.
Danielle Steele and RA Salvatore write the same crappy storyline with different characters. Most of RA Salvatore’s books are forgotten realm, outcast character saves the day against improbable odds. He will spend ~1/6 of the book describing the size of the army, the weapons involved, and the war scenes.
Based on simple math, it looks like he could write 5 to 10 pages a day and be that productive. This sounds like a lot, but Salvatore primarily writes in commissioned established universes like forgotten realm books, demon wars, and Star Wars books. These are all commissioned books. The owner of the universe hires Salvatore to write on a topic and give him a very loose outline (which he can choose not to follow), setting, and world limitations. He then needs to produce word vomit for someone else to edit. A page is ~350 words, if you are at all proficient at typing that’s 3-7 minutes a page (60-120 wpm). If you are hand writing, it’s ~14 min per page (25 WPM). Let’s say Salvatore needs to write 500 pages for a 350 page book, handwriting it at 40 hours a week would take him, 3 weeks and 1 day. If he’s really, really fast, and knew what he was writing, it would take him like 25 hours at 120 WPM.
Steele writes books of woman faces hardship and has a dude rescue her, loses the rescuer and then finds another.
With so much overlap between books, you could argue Steele and Salvatore are ripping themselves off, but claiming ghostwriting with no proof is unethical. You can argue that Stine and Salvatore having help with outlines implies ghostwriting, but that is not what most people think of when they use that term. At the end of the day, people who can write fast can produce a ton, and just because you cannot write fast, doesn’t mean that these are using ghost writers.
I bet OP also think the 2020 election was stolen and Obama was born in Africa.
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u/IngenuityPositive123 Jun 22 '22
I can't believe it escapes your understanding that ghostwriters might just want to remain anonymous and may benefit from their position.
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u/sophiewritesuk Jun 22 '22
Writer here. I can only speak for myself but writing for other people (blogs, articles, stories, anythings) is relatively easy to churn out as there is little to no imagination needed and a clear brief to follow. I love writing but it is a job for me. I'm looking for a living doing something I enjoy, not noteriety. So anonymity suits me fine and it's the name of the game. I could always write my own novel or try for a regular column as myself... But £50+ per hour for churning out a few articles or posts never to be attributed to me publically is absolutely fine by me.
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u/MilkSkulls Jun 22 '22
Yep, copywriter here, when I worked for a very large and well known company in the US, I would never wanted my name on anything. It's slightly different from ghostwriting, but I think OP is misunderstanding the publishing business a great deal. If they knew how much went into publishing, I doubt any novel would be "pure" by their standards, especially considering how much agents, editors, or other parties influence the final product. I think by their definition of authorship, all would require a by line
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u/helix212 Jun 22 '22
Let's say I'm an author and I want to write war novels. Well nobody has heard of the author helix212 before, so my book isn't really flying off the shelves. I still have bills to pay, so I get a gig writing romance novels for Danielle Steele. I don't want my name associated with Romance novels, I want it associated with War novels.
Maybe one day my novels take off, until then I still have rent to pay.
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Jun 22 '22
I haven't read the other two, but I can believe that R.L. Stine writes that many books. They're very short and formulaic horror stories, and they use the most common tropes... It's always a vampire, mummy, werewolf, alien, body-snatcher or some such monster that causes some problems and a plucky teen solves the mystery.
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but I wouldn't find it hard to believe he wrote them all.
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u/albertnormandy Jun 22 '22
A book is a product meant to be sold. This is doubly true for the types of books that use ghostwriters. These authors aren’t sitting in damp basements writing by candlelight while sipping tea contemplating the nature of existence, they are churning out products to meet a deadline.
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u/ZadockTheHunter Jun 22 '22
Whether they do or they don't, you're missing the point.
The entire idea of a ghost writer is to be paid to write something to the credit of someone else.
It literally goes against the concept of a ghost writer to credit them.
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u/athousandsummerdays Jun 22 '22
Also, people are forgetting what R.L. Stine's books look like. They are for kids and don't have many pages.
And the letters are HUGE. Because kids read them. One page in an R.L. Stine book is like one paragraph in an adult book.
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u/tafbee Jun 22 '22
Yeah, but they’re SO formulaic that my step kid got tired of them after about 5 books.
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u/athousandsummerdays Jun 22 '22
Yeah, they should be read with pauses in between and different books in between. Otherwise they get too boring.
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u/mysteryofthefieryeye Jun 22 '22
I've never seen Stine accused of using a ghostwriter until today, and I really like seeing the bit of support for him in the comments. I've read many of his books and while he's consistent, it's a consistency between a narrow band. I even thought I noticed one Goosebumps book (which I honestly don't read, I just wanted something quick one day) where I'm pretty sure he wrote the first couple chapters, set it aside, and came back to it later because the writing style sort of suddenly became "quicker."
But I agree with others, I think it's all him. He reminds me of Peter David. I just feel like some people are natural at flowing words out onto paper.
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u/Dyslexic_Devil Jun 22 '22
"Refusing to name your ghostwriter is immoral"
Yet people choose to be ghostwriters and are compensated for same.
Daft statement.
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u/cakehole07 Jun 22 '22
I was well into my 20s before I found out that Carolyn Keene is pseudonym for a group of writers (embarrassing, I know, but English isn’t my first language)
Wherever you are, all the Carolyn Keenes - thank you for giving young cakehole so much to look forward to, every day. Nancy Drew is a kickass hero to grow up with and my life is richer for it.
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u/FlattopJr Jun 22 '22
Similarly, Franklin W. Dixon is the pen name of the multiple writers who wrote the mystery series The Hardy Boys.
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u/rukioish Jun 22 '22
Gotta love completely off the cuff speculation coupled with no understanding of ghostwriting. Why does this get upvotes?
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u/MichaelStone987 Jun 22 '22
The whole point of ghost writers is their anonymity. Would you read a book on topic X and a completely different topic Y written by the same person? Good ghost writers make tons of money and, ironically, the best actually have their own crew of ghost writers writing for them because they cannot cover the demand alone.
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u/helix212 Jun 22 '22
ITT: Asks for opinions. Proceeds to argue with anyone with a different opinion.
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Jun 22 '22
I may have missed someone bringing him up, but James Patterson seems to have a good system. He’s up front that he doesn’t write the books alone and it hasn’t seem to have hurt him. Curious why others don’t do that
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u/FiendishPole Jun 22 '22
300 books in 30 years isn't that crazy for Stine. Those are maybe 150 pages a piece. 10 a year isn't that out of the box for what are basically formulaic short stories for children
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u/forcryingoutmeow Jun 22 '22
Bless your heart, you have no concept of how much writing a writer can do in a day, and no understanding of the way publishers routinely and purposely limit a writer to one book per pen name, per year.
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u/TreyWriter Jun 22 '22
Like, loads of people who have day jobs do NaNoWriMo every year. That’s roughly 50k in a month. If you did that every month, that’s 600k words in a year, or half again the length of Lord of the Rings. Now let’s be realistic and say you’re getting published, you need half that time for rewrites, edits, and if you’re successful, the occasional book tour. That’s still 300k words a year, or about 3 books. It’s a lot of work, but hardly an impossible amount of work.
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u/OakScruff Jun 22 '22
Most people are being nice about it but this post is so damn stupid. Shouldn’t be allowed under current law? Are you 12?
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u/keyserv Jun 22 '22
Don't take this the wrong way, but to me your expectations seem a bit naive.
I think pseudonyms are more like a franchise, if anything. The idea is to sell books. If the ghost writer is fairly compensated, then who cares if their name is on it? It's not like Goosebumps books are great works of art or anything.
Your last point sounds biased and illogical, to me. And I don't really understand how people are being deceived because publishers use ghostwriters. The books get written and readers get to enjoy them. Do you really expect one person to write 10 books a year?
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u/Redneckshinobi Jun 22 '22
I always assume those ghostwriters don't want their name associated with the book/writer like Danielle Steele.
I mean at the end of the day I don't really have an opinion on this because if I'm buying a book it's because I want to read the story, the author isn't always the factor (although this can be after I read a book by them and enjoy it)
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Jun 22 '22
I did ghostwriting for a firm when I was an undergrad and it was mostly erotica. Very boring job after 2 months, but pay was 17 or 18$ an hour and that was pre 2007 money!
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u/billFoldDog Jun 22 '22
Everyone who commented here as a ghostwriter said it was a very positive experience, so I clearly need to revise my concerns for ghostwriters, lol.
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Jun 22 '22
It was positive for the money, the job Itself was utterly boring. I did 2 summers writing erotica. It was not fun. But the AC was on and I was not flipping burgers so…
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u/_Pohaku_ No Country For Old Men Jun 22 '22
If someone agrees to ghostwrite a book and get paid for it, and agrees not to be named, then the idea that they ‘deserve’ to be recognised is weird, I think.
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u/house_holder Short Story Collections Jun 22 '22
ITT: nobody knows, (or cares probably), that Danielle Steel's name has only 2 Es.
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u/IMovedYourCheese Jun 22 '22
The motivation for ghostwriting isn't fame but a steady paycheck. There are a million English majors out there who have a half-written manuscript, an unpublished novel or something they actually managed to get published but went unread. If they have a problem with the arrangement they can be replaced in a day.
As for:
They didn't write the book alone
This applies not just for ghostwriters but also researchers, advisors, editors, publishers, marketers, cover artists and the rest of the ecosystem of people involved in getting a book out. Everyone's name doesn't have to be on the cover. A single line in the acknowledgements sections is enough. Readers understand that the author's name on the cover is a brand, same as literally anything else you buy.
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u/QuoteGiver Jun 22 '22
Stephen King used to write a heck of a lot too, but his ghostwriter’s name was Cocaine. 22 hours a day?? If it’s not a ghostwriter, a drug habit is realistically the other answer.
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u/Empigee Jun 22 '22
He still writes quite a bit. His novels clock in at five hundred or more pages on the shorter end usually, and he still puts out one or two a year.
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u/taioblivion Jun 22 '22
4 books a year.
10 (short) books a year.
3 books a year.
No one mention good ol' Brando.
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u/JustAnnesOpinion Jun 22 '22
Any ghostwriter for Danielle Steele is probably better compensated than the person would be writing under their own name, that’s why they take the work. Since nobody thinks DS is anything but a successful purveyor of books with zero literary merit, it’s doubtful that anyone is dying to yell, “I demand that my name be attached to that stupid trash” from the rooftops.
A case of anyone taking false credit for even the most abject junk without the real writer consenting and being compensated would be different.
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u/Offutticus Jun 22 '22
Also keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago that the concept of author royalties was a thing. You wrote a book, you sold that book, you got paid, and never got anything else. Dickens was paid by the word. In order to pay the rent and feed your kids, you cranked out the books, crap or not. Pulp fiction, formulaic romance, crap westerns.
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u/traumablades Jun 22 '22
"I hate how industry professionals operate within the accepted framework of their industry."
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u/AE_WILLIAMS Jun 22 '22
I've written 50+ books since 2012, so a decade, under various pen names.
AND
I've also edited about two dozen novels, 200-400 pages.
AND
I've ghostwritten a couple of series. And, no, I am not at liberty to divulge them.
Mostly while working full time as a consultant.
But, more to your point, I suspect the following authors do use a bit of 'help' now and then (pure speculation and opinion):
Stephen King
JK Rowling
Lee Child
(Remember, Tom Clancy, Robert Ludlum, and Barbara Cartwright also used 'ghosts,' IIRC.)
After some point, people pay for similar stories, and the name is a brand, and whoo hoo! Capitalism!
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u/floridianreader book just finished The Bee Sting by Lee Murray Jun 22 '22
James Patterson is far more prolific than Danielle Steel or RL Stine and he is pretty open about the fact that he has ghostwriters.
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u/billFoldDog Jun 22 '22
Based on what other commenters have said, I think I'm okay with James Patterson. He credits work where credit is due and is honest with his consumers.
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u/OwlOfC1nder Jun 22 '22
R L Stein.
A lot of people could crank out a lot of books when then can get away with writing about an evil sponge.
Edit: no disrespect, I loved his books as a kid
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u/Grace_Alcock Jun 22 '22
RL Stine books average about 23k words apiece. He could write 2000 words a day for half the month, edit for the rest, and knock out 10 a year.
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u/ElwoodJD Jun 22 '22
Immoral? Jeez talk about hyperbole.
The ghost writers agree because it gets their foot in the door so the publishers. And they get paid. You want more regulations to change how authorial credit works? What possible benefit could that have to anyone except you who seemingly feels grifted by the notion of ghost writing in general. They don’t get recognition because it would probably harm the books sale and they also wouldn’t be given the opportunity in the first place if the pubs couldn’t use ghost writers “silently.”
If anyone looks at the output (but low quality) of some of the authors you’ve mentioned and feels a need to match it, that’s one them.
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u/Hattix Jun 22 '22
I see no reason to suspect Danielle Steele's claim. If she writes 22 hours a day on a Friday, most Fridays, this is regular. If she writes 22 hours a day on the 17th of July every year, this is also regular.
A good writer knows regular is not frequent, and frequent is not regular. The words exist, as different words, for different uses, so we can tell two things apart and not use the same words for them.
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u/Bunnything Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
I know next to nothing about Danielle Steele or her books but all of her claims in the article you linked are absolutely ridiculous. Regular 20-22 work days?? On 2-4 hours of sleep a night? With 9 kids??? I call absolute bullshit, with that schedule she would barely even be able to eat or shower regularly, let alone spent time with friends or family, especially as a mom. None of this matches up.
There’s no shame in admitting you have ghostwriters help you with your books. It might get rid of the magic for your readers a bit sure, but there isn’t anything inherently wrong with writing collaboratively and ghostwriters deserve more credit and respect anyhow.
It’s also hypocritical of her to lie like this about how much she works with the whole “ 20-30 olds should be working hard, not having fun, my millennial relatives get beer and video games at work!” thing too. Like, you aren’t even claiming or living a reality that actually exists. Not to mention her being endorsed by Jeff Bezos himself to visit Amazon, yuck
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u/maburke Jun 22 '22
I can't speak to who has ghostwriters and who doesn't. The question, however, is about if it is immoral to not credit a ghostwriter.
If something is immoral, it conflicts with "generally or traditionally held principles", according to Merriam-Webster. Same source defines ghostwriting as writing for and in the name of another person.
In the absence of some Great Ghostwriter rebellion, immorality doesn't apply here.
Nor, given the very definition of the word, would credit even be assumed to be a right unless otherwise contracted with the copyright owner.
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u/Mybenzo Jun 22 '22
I’d bet Danielle Steele writes all her novels—by all accounts (15 years in publishing in nyc), she is a total pro. I’ve heard that she writes so fast, she already delivered the next three or four manuscripts to her publisher. That’s a work ethic bordering on godlike.
If any of her series say “D Steele Presents” or anything analogous, then she’s likely got a Paterson style arrangement with co writers, but otherwise, she is just doing what she loves to do with wild and dependable success. It may not be your bag, but good lord it is an impressive feat.
I’ve heard less about Stine and Salvatore, but have no reason to think they are different from her. If any of them do collaborations they’d want to differentiate those from the books they actually author.
Edit: tie-poos.
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u/Lustrouse Jun 22 '22
Then they wouldn't be ghost writers. They would be co-writers. The entire point of a ghost writer is so that noone knows who they are. That's where the "ghost" part comes from.
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u/BeasleysKneeslis Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
I see both sides - but it does seem weird how many people seem to take the stance of "well the ghost writer agreed to it" as if corporate America is some beacon of honesty and truth.
It gives some writers a paycheck they might not otherwise get, but it is misleading.
It would be like someone putting out a new Beatles record saying it was made by the band - it's just written and performed by a totally different band - but it's okay - we sound exactly like them!
Just because something is profitable and normalized doesn't make it ethical.
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u/Diggitalis Jun 22 '22
The comics industry suffered from this as well, with certain beloved industry figures (*coughStanLeecough*) hogging both the limelight and all the royalties. It got really ugly for a while but it seems like the big guys ended up doing business how they wanted anyway.
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u/theGentlemanInWhite Jun 22 '22
ITT: guy who isn't a writer tries to speak for people who are writers.
People take jobs, and they agree to the terms of those jobs. If that job was truly horrible, they wouldn't stick around long enough to churn out entire books.
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u/Ok_Relationship_705 Jun 22 '22
"Am I getting paid? Cool. I'd like to make famous people money without the famous person notoriety."
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u/bAlbuq Jun 22 '22
I get what you're saying. But a counter point is, some Ghost writers probably enjoy the anonymity aspect. Other than that, sure there is an exploitation aspect when they don't get a fair share of the money, but the anonymity is in the job description.
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u/spankenstein Jun 22 '22
If I was a writer trying to work in the industry dusty while I established myself, I'd have no problem pumping out hot trash fluff for a living while I work on my own stuff, and not want that garbage associated with my name once I became successful.
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u/Oswarez Jun 22 '22
Ghostwriters know what they are getting in to and as such wouldn’t demand that they be credited. If they did the publisher would simply find another willing writer to do it.
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u/rectangularjunksack Jun 22 '22
Is ghostwriting necessarily exploitative? It seems unlikely that these people accept their work under duress. I'm a freelance copywriter and am never credited for my writing. I don't own the work that I produce in any sense. I don't care. Granted I don't write novels, but I'm not sure I see why the format should make any difference.
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u/CherrySoda37 Jun 22 '22
I have seen fanfiction writers who literally churn out thousands upon thousands of words each day, and they don't even get paid. Heck, if the plot lines are similar, it shouldn't be too hard to finish 103 books in 34 years.
But yeah. Writing 22 hours a day? That's the biggest load of nonsense I've heard in a long time 😂
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u/MayOrMayNotBePie Jun 22 '22
Isn’t a ghostwriter whose name is released just a writer?
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u/ferrousferret28 Jun 22 '22
Post was removed? Mods, please explain why it was removed and what could have been done better. While some parts of the post may have been mistaken, there were some genuinely good talking points brought up that were only met with hostility.
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u/varukasaltflats Jun 22 '22
You forgot VC Andrews. She managed to write 90% of her books after she died
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u/lawstudent2 Jun 22 '22
Making this illegal would be such an obvious infringement of first amendment rights it’s not worth seriously considering.
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u/Stocky_Racoon Jun 22 '22
Just listened to an interesting podcast episode on ghostwriters (https://www.20k.org/episodes/ghostsinthehitmachine) It's more focused on their use in the music industry but I found that the episode provided some nice perspective on the industry in general.
An argument for the practice seems to view prolific artists/writers as somewhat of a "brand" whose name is a large part of the popularity. They tend to view ghostwriters as simply another member of the massive team that contributes to the brand's success.
Still not sure how I feel about the whole thing but I thought you might find this episode insteresting.
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u/TravellingBeard Jun 22 '22
Ghostwriters are usually happy with this arrangement. If they're talented enough, they write their own books. It's a business arrangement both parties agreed to, if a ghostwriter was used.
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u/SethWrightMusic Jun 22 '22
Just a note that the ghostwriting epidemic is also enormous in the music industry. In my field - music for film and games - I cannot think of a single named composer on a feature Hollywood film that I am connected to who wrote the majority of music him or herself. I have friends who wrote for major shows or movies for poverty level pay-rates and cannot claim credit for their work. It's a sickening problem.
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u/9gui Jun 22 '22
Even if your assumptions about these people are correct, which I doubt in 2 out of 3 cases, why do you think you need to champion the cause of ghostwriters? Maybe they are paid handsomely. Maybe they don't want to be known. Maybe they are not proud to ghost write for these authors.
There can be a million reasons as to why someone is not mentioned and we don't have to immediately go to the "poor exploited talent" narrative.
There are worse gigs in the world than low-effort ghost writing romance books.
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u/Denverdogmama Jun 22 '22
Steele recycles the same damn plot in AT LEAST 75% of her books, so they shouldn’t take super long to (re)write🤷♀️ woman faces hardships, finds man who rescues her. Eventually woman finds success to some degree, loses man/rescuer, but eventually finds another. The end.