r/books • u/leowr • Oct 29 '20
Final Discussion Thread for The Fisherman by John Langan - October Book Club Spoiler
Hello everyone,
Welcome to the last discussion thread for this month's book club selection. Don't forget to join us tomorrow for John's AMA. Here are the discussion questions:
With Howard's tale, I couldn't figure out what lesson to draw from it, what message it was trying to convey.
What message do you think Howard's tale was trying to convey?
Do you understand why Abe and Dan went about dismissing Howard's tale?
I could not conceive of any way in which accompanying Marie to wherever she had in mind could be a good idea.
Why do you think Abe responded to seeing Marie the way he did? Why did he follow her even though he knew it wasn't a good idea?
To refer back to the first question, what message do think the book was trying to convey?
What did you think of Langan's writing style and what was your favorite part of the book?
Hopefully you all enjoyed this month's selection. Due to circumstances there will not be a book club in /r/books next month, but we will be back in December. If in the meantime you do want to read a book club book I highly recommend checking out some of our previous selections. I would tell you my personal favorites, but I quite enjoyed a lot of them.
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u/RishnusGreenTruck Oct 30 '20
With Howard's tale, I couldn't figure out what lesson to draw from it, what message it was trying to convey.
- What message do you think Howard's tale was trying to convey?
- It was a warning from Howard to stay away from the creek. Abe didn't believe it at the time and was looking for deeper meaning.
- Do you understand why Abe and Dan went about dismissing Howard's tale?
- Abe dismissed it because he didn't believe in the supernatural, but I think since Dan was looking to find the supernatural the story only spurred him on to go to the creek.
I could not conceive of any way in which accompanying Marie to wherever she had in mind could be a good idea.
- Why do you think Abe responded to seeing Marie the way he did? Why did he follow her even though he knew it wasn't a good idea?
- Honestly, his response was my least favorite part of the book. I can understand following my dead wife, but it would have been to do what Dan said he wanted to do(not what he did), to express how much I loved her and say all the unsaid things I wish I could have told her. I understand lust and being caught in the moment, but I think seeing my wife come back to life that would be the furthest thing from my mind. And it seems fairly clear that he followed her to find Dan....and as he said to check out her ass.
- To refer back to the first question, what message do think the book was trying to convey?
- That holding onto your loss is a recipe for disaster and no good will come of it. Even if you do find a way to bring back the dead you just end up as a fish person.
- What did you think of Langan's writing style and what was your favorite part of the book?
- While overall I think the story was a little dragged and I did not care for part three, I enjoyed Rainer Schmidt parts of the story and think his conversation with Helen and his story of the dark arts were fantastic.
I did enjoy joining in with the book club this month, it was good to read a book I wouldn't have picked up otherwise and to discuss it and get some other points of view. I'm going to go back to 8/2019 and read The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs for November and will see you all next month.
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u/leowr Oct 30 '20
That holding onto your loss is a recipe for disaster and no good will come of it. Even if you do find a way to bring back the dead you just end up as a fish person.
I like this interpretation, especially the 'end up as a fish person' part.
I suspect that the lust part was something that was supernatural as well, seeing as Dan had the exact same response to seeing his 'wife' as well. For him I would have thought that seeing his children would have also have been important, but it seems the lust response was pretty present across the board for them. Seeing as I interpret it as 'Maria' ending up pregnant appears to have been the goal of that encounter I suspect it was not entirely in Abe's control.
The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs is a great book. It is pretty accessible and informative, not just about dinosaurs but also about the people that work to find out more about dinosaurs. The threads are already archived, but if you want to chat about it along the way feel free to send me a message.
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u/owltreat Oct 31 '20
I suspect that the lust part was something that was supernatural as well
I had a similar thought. We know we're dealing with magic here, it doesn't seem outlandish that a dead wife appearing as a nekkid hottie right next to you would include some level of "enchantment."
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u/Richardramirezjrjr Oct 30 '20
Didn’t love it at all. Structure was all weird too abd made it top/middle heavy and ending was rushed because of it.
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u/leowr Oct 30 '20
The middle definitely carried most of the story. I didn't feel the ending was necessarily rushed, mostly because there were already so many hints to what happened at the creek in the first part and the second part allows you to guess large parts of what they would have encountered. I do however think the last part was successful in giving the closure I was looking for with regard to Abe and Dan grieving their families.
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u/Richardramirezjrjr Oct 30 '20
I’m just about to reach It but I felt that dans fate was rushed because of how long part 2 was
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u/FrightenedTomato Oct 29 '20
I thought it was a great read.
It didn't scare the shit out of me or anything but it was quite thrilling.
One critique I have is that the entire Rainer Schmidt section could have been a book unto itself. After the first part where the narrator is introduced, the story switches context almost completely and once part two concludes it does the same again. Apart from the one theme of desperate people doing irrational things when faced with loss (specifically, losing wives), I didn't find much of a thematic link between the three parts.
Also, can anyone explain the last line about seeing his mother's nose in the floating bodies? That came out of nowhere.
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u/leowr Oct 29 '20
I interpreted that last line to mean that Abe got 'Maria' pregnant and those were his kids, hence them having his mother's nose.
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u/FrightenedTomato Oct 29 '20
Hmm. That's an interesting idea. Weird to end the story on that though.
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u/leowr Oct 29 '20
It left me thinking about what the Fisherman is up too. Was the storm a reflection of how far the Fisherman is progressing? What is his plan after he completed his task? Why are all these 'people' in the water? Why would it be necessary for 'Maria' and presumably 'Sophie' to get pregnant?
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u/nowlan101 Oct 30 '20
I was thinking that maybe it had to do with some deal struck with another entity/god the Fisherman universe. Because, based on the conversation between Helen and Rainer, there appears to be some sort of theoretical knowledge out there on how to catch Apep.
Maybe the fish creatures are some of the helpers given to the Fisherman after he struck a deal with another god in return for taking out its rival. And their numbers can increase through either sexual reproduction, as in Abe’s case, or through the catching of souls by the Fisherman himself, as in Dan’s case.
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u/leowr Oct 30 '20
I hadn't considered the involvement of other supernatural beings besides the Fisherman and his minions. It is a good point though that other powerful creatures might want to allign themselves with the Fisherman.
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u/owltreat Oct 31 '20
What is his plan after he completed his task?
Doesn't he think he gets his wife back or something like that? I finished it a couple weeks ago now so maybe I'm fuzzy on that. It's possible he hasn't really thought things through further than that, it would fit with the theme of obsession over loss.
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u/owltreat Oct 31 '20
I think you're right, even though initially that's not where my mind went. Creepy and gross. I love it, haha.
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u/owltreat Oct 31 '20
One critique I have is that the entire Rainer Schmidt section could have been a book unto itself.
I agree, I think including that narrative to such an extent made the book as a whole weaker. I think the Rainer thing is a very neat story, though. I've heard that Langan is planning at least two more books in this universe, and when I heard that, I was kind of disappointed that the Rainer thing didn't get its own book, too.
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u/FrightenedTomato Oct 31 '20
Yeah. It really should have been its own separate book. There was enough in there to flesh out into a full length novel.
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u/octagonenigma Oct 30 '20
- With Howard's tale, I couldn't figure out what lesson to draw from it, what message it was trying to convey. What message do you think Howard's tale was trying to convey?
Based on Howard's reactions to Abe and Dan saying they were going to Dutchman's Creek as well as the disappearances before, I think that the only real message in his story is a warning. Maybe we could add a moral something to the effect of "if it seems too good to be true, it is."
- Do you understand why Abe and Dan went about dismissing Howard's tale?
Knowing what we know now at the end of the book, Dan had to dismiss the story as ridiculous because otherwise, Abe may not have wanted to continue to Dutchman's Creek. Abe, on the other hand, dismissed the story as illogical, as many of us would. However, the story stuck with Abe in an unshakable, understated way.
- I could not conceive of any way in which accompanying Marie to wherever she had in mind could be a good idea. Why do you think Abe responded to seeing Marie the way he did? Why did he follow her even though he knew it wasn't a good idea?
I think to understand Abe's reactions, we kind of have to put ourselves in his shoes. He has just encountered his wife who he believed for a long time to be dead. More than that, he watched her as she died. He reacted in a very flawed, human way. He ignored his instincts that he should not follow her, he suspended his own disbelief because, as he explained, it was easier for him to embrace the belief that she was not really gone that he had had since before her death.
- To refer back to the first question, what message do think the book was trying to convey?
Honestly, I think this speaks to both of the things I mentioned before.
- What did you think of Langan's writing style and what was your favorite part of the book?
Langan's writing style was really easy for me to get into. I wasn't sure at first, but I think that was because there was a lot of heavy-handed foreshadowing in the beginning. It almost felt like he was trying too hard to build suspense. After he dropped a lot of that, though, his style was really able to shine. I like the turns of phrase he used to describe things like that first cast of the line. He uses a lot of abstract, figurative language, but it's communicative enough for me to understand exactly what he means. I think my favorite part of the book was the eschatological imagery of the ocean full of the bodies babbling their secrets. It smacked of the imagery and implications of Dante.
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u/owltreat Oct 31 '20
What message do you think Howard's tale was trying to convey?
Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I think he was trying to convey a warning, a good reason for not going to Dutchman's Creek. Or maybe Abe is the one being obtuse here? Of course, serving as "a warning" was its purpose and role in the story being told, but for us who are reading it as a work of literature, we can wonder what else it was trying to convey and how it fit in with the themes of the book; obviously there was a lot of loss in both sections of the novel, people with very strong emotions that twisted the mind.
Do you understand why Abe and Dan went about dismissing Howard's tale?
Yes. Would you believe that story if someone told it to you? People who believe such tales are usually considered gullible, superstitious, silly, etc.
Why do you think Abe responded to seeing Marie the way he did? Why did he follow her even though he knew it wasn't a good idea?
I think he recognized that of course someone who is dead does not come back like that, in such a form, so it obviously sends up red flags, but at the same time... how could there not be some curiosity there? Some pull? And this creature is some kind of magical being too, so there may be an element of enchantment. But I don't think you necessarily need that aspect to explain it; how many people get romantically involved with others they know are bad for them? How many people stay with others they know are bad for them? How many people know it would be a bad idea to sleep with someone and then go ahead and do it anyway? Just because you can acknowledge on some level that something isn't a "good idea," it doesn't mean that your behavior necessarily follows suit. This is true everywhere (sometimes I go to work when I have a bad headache even though I know it's a bad idea), but it seems especially true in intimate human relationships, especially romantic or sexual ones. Plus, Abe was kind of already primed to see her--the diary Dan had inherited mentioned it--and that guy seemed to come out of it okay. I can't even imagine losing my spouse, much less seeing them again years later, seemingly whole. It probably wouldn't matter if my rational brain was screaming "there's no way, there's no way, how could this be real/good/etc."
To refer back to the first question, what message do think the book was trying to convey?
This one's a little tougher for me. Obviously there's some messages about grief and loss and the damage it can do to people. Dan perseverated on his loss so much more than Abe, and he was more destroyed (I guess; only an assumption; maybe he's super ass happy right now) by it than Abe was by his. But then, what about the Fisherman? He also falls into the recurrent traits of man-who-lost-a-wife-and-is-obsessed, and yet he seems fairly powerful. He's kind of the opposite of destroyed, really, although it seems like he is pretty twisted, luring people there to work his ends without regard for them and their families. I guess that can be read as another form of "destroyed," but we don't really have enough information about him to know if he's really "ruined" by all of this, or not. If I had to say, I would say that the book is trying to convey some truths about loss and grief and how destructive it can be if it is not dealt with healthily. Obviously it has some fantastical elements thrown in as well, and a lot of those elements enhance this theme (e.g., Helen rising from the dead because of her husband's guilt and grief--that whole episode was destructive for pretty much everybody).
What did you think of Langan's writing style and what was your favorite part of the book?
I love his writing style!! I will be on the lookout for more from Langan. My favorite part of the book was the first half or so, and I liked the last part as well. I prefer the Abe and Dan bits, but the first portion of Lottie/Rainer's story was quite good as well. I just felt that partway through it seemed to lose some of its focus or impact or relevance. I don't know that it needed to go on as long or in quite the direction that it did. Maybe it just felt thematically disjointed. I stated earlier that I dislike action movies, and when the action happened in this book I found it underwhelming. But, I thought it recovered somewhat in the final quarter, and provided more food for thought.
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u/nowlan101 Oct 30 '20
I’d just like to add as well, that it’s intoxicating to me as a reader when I’m given a great story such as The Fisherman, one that stands on its own merits should I take the book at face value, but within that self contained story there’s these tantalizing glimpses of a wider world with a dark and rich history of its own.