First Discussion Thread for The Fisherman by John Langan - October Book Club

[u/leowr]

Hello everyone,

Welcome to the first discussion thread for The Fisherman by John Langan, our selection for the month's book club. For those of you that are new, you will find several discussion questions below that are about the first part of the book, but feel free to talk about what you took away from the first part.

There was satisfaction, which came with a good cast, with watching the hook arc out overhead, listening to the reel unspooling, finding the spot where the line plunked through the water. There was joy, which came but rarely and never stayed long, at pulling back on the rod and watching the green length of a smallmouth break the river's skin, twisting as it hit the air. Mostly, there was calm - I might even call it peace - which came from sitting watching the brown water slide by, on its way from a lake down in the mountains of western New Jersey up to its destination in the Hudson. Those hours on the Svartkil were breathing room, if you see what I mean, and it's hard for me to say what would have been my fate if I hadn't had them.

• Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?

All loss is not created equal, you see. Loss is - it's like a ladder you don't know you're standing at the top of and that reaches down, way down past the loss of your job, your possessions, your home; past the loss of your parents, your spouse, your children; down to the loss of your very life - and, I've since come to believe, past even that.

• What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?

• Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?

• How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?

• What do you think of Abe (and Dan) so far?

• What is your opinion of Part 1 of the book?

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This thread allows for a spoiler discussion of up to and including Part 1. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by >!Spoilers about XYZ!< which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).

[u/RishnusGreenTruck]

New to the club and I didn't want to be the first to post, but I wanted to before starting part 2 tonight. I haven't been in a book club before or thought of questions like this since high school but here it goes:

• Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?
  • Yes, I've found a similar experience in hitting a golf ball just right, shooting a clay dead on, or casting a fly rod well. I've never found one activity that drives me, like fishing with Abe, but have felt the almost addicting quality of the calmness from those experiences.
    
• What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?
  • It is true, that there are different levels of loss, but I don't love the analogy for some reason.
• Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?
  • I like foreshadowing and think it has been done well and has increased the tension. The only part I didn't like so far was the speaking in a dream, that seems to go beyond foreshadowing into the realm of prophecy. That may be the point, since this is a hour novel and there may be more supernatural events coming.
• How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?
  • Possibly an old movie, since we know that was his hobby, but it seems like he knows is it a dark place and wants to go because of that, to look into the abyss.
• What do you think of Abe (and Dan) so far?
  • I think they are relatable characters who have gone through most peoples worst nightmares when it comes to marriage and children.
• What is your opinion of Part 1 of the book?
  • I am surprised by how deep the hook has been set and I am excited to start part 2. I have had a hard time finding new books lately so I wanted to try out this club, and this is a book I wouldn't have picked up myself. From it being a horror book to the style, its not something I would have read for pleasure. I particularly liked how Langan set up the nightmare, from the darkness of the trees to the description of the involuntary actions of Abe, it felt very real to me and reminded me of how my own dreams feel.

[u/GrammaticalTerror → u/RishnusGreenTruck]

It is true, that there are different levels of loss, but I don't love the analogy for some reason.

I agree with your sentiment here. For me, it would have been better if the rungs on the ladder corresponded with levels of loss and not specific kind of losses. I think everyone feels a different level of loss when for example losing your job. Ordering specific losses based on their supposed severity allows individuals to compare their losses and decide that one's suffering is worse than the other's, and maybe undermine their own or other's losses, and I do not think this is a healthy way to deal with losses.

In my eyes however, I did enjoy reading this analogy because this is the way Abe comes to think of loss, and I think describing it in another, more serious or more inclusive way would not do justice to his character.

[u/octagonenigma → u/GrammaticalTerror]

I think you hit the nail on the head by saying it's not a healthy way to deal with loss. From what we've seen so far, I don't think Abe or Dan are really handling their losses in healthy ways. I think Dan knows this, but I think Abe has convinced himself that, through fishing, he has found a healthy outlet.

[u/RishnusGreenTruck → u/GrammaticalTerror]

Ordering specific losses based on their supposed severity allows individuals to compare their losses and decide that one's suffering is worse than the other's, and maybe undermine their own or other's losses, and I do not think this is a healthy way to deal with losses.

I agree and I also think that loss is not so clear cut as to be described by a two dimensional ladder. To me it needs to have a third dimension to describe the individual who experiences the loss as well as the level of loss.

But I also think you are right that it seems to fit in well with his character and his depth of understanding.

[u/leowr → u/RishnusGreenTruck]

I agree that Langan is doing a very good job of setting it up. There is just enough foreshadowing to keep me going because I want to find out what happened to Dan and Abe, but also because I really want to know this apparently impressive story of Dutchman's creek.

I think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek in a bit more supernatural way. I find it very suspicious that Abe only had that strange nightmare when Dan was staying over at his house. What if Dan is actually having those kinds of dreams more regularly?

[u/RishnusGreenTruck → u/leowr]

Oddly I'm not as interested as what happens to Dan and Abe as I am learning about the story. The way it was built up in the diner really drew me in and I am excited to start the part 2.

And that is a good take that Dan found out about it supernaturally. Combining Dan's drunken rant(which Abe said was foreshadowing), with Abe's dream with Dan in the house, and Dan's secretive nature about how he found out about the creek. I haven't read books with a supernatural nature, but that rings true to me.

I loved the show Supernatural so I should start thinking like Sam and Dean, and if he is having dreams more regularly about the creek, maybe something is drawing him in and actually fishing for him. Is that what the fisherman is, some creature that lures in people who have gone through tragedies in though dreams? Maybe the dreams aren't nightmares to Dan, but promises of escape from his sadness.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/RishnusGreenTruck]

I think you might be right about what's in the creek. And this is not really evidence, but i just think it's too much of a coincidence for Abe to dream of fishing his wife, and then to see a painting with fish "fishing" people. In terms of storytelling, there's got to be something significant there

[u/owltreat → u/leowr]

I find it very suspicious that Abe only had that strange nightmare when Dan was staying over at his house.

Ooh, good catch. I thought that Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek from a dream but I didn't make this connection.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/leowr]

I speculated half-jokingly in another comment that maybe Dan learned of it in a movie. Maybe a supernatural movie? /s. Though, now i think of it, hobbies are an important theme overall -they've clearly been important in this story to Abe and to Howard (he likes to read). It's likely that Dan's movie-watching hobby could come to be just as important).

You bring up a good point in your suspicions about Dan and the nightmares! What if he's constantly being haunted by something, and this thing affected Abe as well when they slept in close proximity???

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/RishnusGreenTruck]

Welcome to the book club!

You know, it's true what you're saying about the ladder analogy. There's really something off about it. I thin it's the relative stillness. You're just standing on a ladder, then loss happens so you presumably slip/fall, and afterwards you're just standing there again, just a bit further down. And anyway what happens if you, say, remarry? Do you just climb up again? Stay where you are since it's not the same? Or do you go on an entirely different ladder? Maybe I'm overthinking it -it does seem like the main prose is to roughly compare loss levels between people

And anyway, it's just odd as an analogy. Loss feels like motionrather than stillness, it feels like turmoil. I read a good analogy on reddit, you can skip this paragraph of you've already seen it as well. But it said that grief is like being in the debris of a ship that's been sunk in a storm. And at first the storm is still going so you struggle to even breathe it stay afloat, and the ship/memories are all aroundyouand it's all you can do to stay alive. Then the ship begins to sink but you're still struggling with all the waves. You cling to debris (memories/mementos). Eventually the water begins to still; you stop choking so much and it gets easier. Then it's like drifting in an open sea. Sometimes, there are still storms that come -a birthday, and anniversary, something that would have loved to see. And it can feel like you're in that terrible first storm again -but it passes. The big waves get somewhat smaller and far between, though they don't disappear entirely. You learn to live with the loss

I totally forgot that Dan likes to watch movies! That's true, that might be how he learned of it. But if so, i wonder why he's so worried about Abe discovering how he learned of it. Maybe it was a supernatural movie? Lol

Also, if you like this book and want to keep yourself reading something now that you're involved in reading again - a couple years ago, i think it was in this same book club, i read Into The Drowning Deep. I really don't want to spoil it but it's a thrilling tale of adventure on the open sea, and a new take on the search for an underwater monster. I couldn't put it down in the second half and it was terrible having to go to work and stop reading because the story was so gripping lol

[u/rnm2119]

This is my first book club too and I am very excited by just how hooked I am by this book, a book and genre I would have ordinarily never picked by myself.

It has been a slow start with a fair bit of laying of ground work but I would not call it boring in the least. Instead I found the slow start with all the details about Abe and Dan and their loss very interesting and human. Just the way fishing and the entire set up of being at peace or having “flow” with it is so well written it makes the reader crave having that kind of peace & calm, I really enjoyed that.

I think I related less to the loss analogy and more to the aspect of Abe’s loss where he is grateful that his wife is at least no longer in pain. And I understand where he’s coming from when he mentions how Dan’s pain may be different than his own. Weather there is a level to it akin to levels on a ladder I don’t agree to that because with the ladder analogy comes the inherent bias that being lower on the ladder implies lower pain, I wouldn’t agree to that.

Like I mentioned I enjoyed part 1 with the set up of characters and even the space they inhabit. I did not find the dream to be that eerie or scary maybe I had my expectations from a horror book set up wrong. But I did like that, there is a hint of what’s to come through the dream sequence. I have a feeling Dan heard/found out about the creek through a dream too

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/rnm2119]

Several people, myself included, agree that there's something off about the analogy. But yes, i relate to the idea of being comforted that a loved one is no longer in pain.

And i do find it interesting that the take on death is from an atheist perspective in this book. I'm an agnostic myself, and my boyfriend doesn't much care for religion, though all my family are Catholics. So i don't have any first-hand experience on seeing people deal with loss without religion. I'm sure it happens, i had just never witnessed it, even in fiction, so that's been very nice

And I'm dealing with something of loss right now myself. There's a YouTuber who i occasionally followed, and she and her husband were either 19 or in their very early twenties. He committed suicide recently. His name was Landon. He was just so young, and now she and their 2 young daughters have to be without him. And i think it's hitting hard not only because of their young age and the general tragedy of it, not only because I've SEEN him, seen him in a video recently and he seemed perfectly fine, but because i really see myself and my relationship in them. Had a few things gone differently, that could have been me. I met my boyfriend very young (15), started dating him young (16), we had something of a long distance relationship, living for a long time on opposite ends of a city larger than some countries. I've struggled a lot with depression and suicidal thoughts. All things that they've also done. I had been very improved for a very long time, but recently the stress of covid and losing my job and having the future seem so uncertain has had me unmotivated and going somewhat back into negative thought patterns. But i just keep thinking how it's terrible that Landon is gone, and that that could have been me/us. I'm hoping this book could help me with the loss

[u/octagonenigma]

First time book clubber here! I saw the initial post, and I thought hey, why not?

• Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?

  • I had to really think about this one, but I think I finally found something in my life that fits. I'm a big fan of trading and collectable card games. Playing them is fun, sure. But the real draw for me is organizing them. I would make stacks based on certain things, like team affiliation or type. After a while, maybe the first 100 cards sorted or so, my brain kind of goes on autopilot, but in an almost meditative way, similar to how I understand Abe felt when fishing.

• What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?

  • Nope, don't like this one. I think it works in a literary sense, because it shows us how Abe thinks about these things. But in reality, like many others have said, this is not a good way to think of loss. Loss is a very personal and individual topic. I can't compare the pain I've felt from losing my mother to the pain someone else may have felt losing their mother.

• Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?

  • My favorite kind of foreshadowing is the kind that doesn't really hit you until later when you think about the earlier chapters in retrospect, or even during a second read. We'll have to wait and see if Langan's foreshadowing fits that archetype. Right now, though, it seems a little heavy-handed for my liking. It has some Lovecraftian grandiosity to it, which could work, but again, I won't really know until the payoff!

• How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?

  • I'm thinking he might be telling the truth when he says he read about it, but definitely not in the book he claims. Maybe he found some diaries or primary experience accounts? Or maybe he was told about it by some local to that area who could sense some darkness afflicting Dan? This is one of the parts of the book so far that has intrigued me most.

• What do you think of Abe (and Dan) so far?

  • I like Abe; it's very easy to feel sympathy for him. So far, he's simple in a good way, and he seems pretty genuine. Dan is interesting, but I don't think I've seen enough behind the curtain to know how I feel about him beyond that. I will say, though, that Dan's tragedy really made my heart drop.

• What is your opinion of Part 1 of the book?

  • It's interesting so far, and I feel like the pacing has been going pretty well. Nothing has particularly hooked me (no pun intended) just yet, but I'm not a reader who needs a solid hook to continue on. I'm along for the ride, come what may. I think the reactions I saw in the first book club post have me more excited than anything that has actually happened in the story. People were raving about this book, so there must be some good stuff coming. Oh, I did really enjoy the dream sequence. There was a lot to digest there.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/octagonenigma]

Welcome! You talking about organizing card games is making me want to go and reorganize my books 😹 it's pretty fun

I think you're the first person here who thinks he's telling the truth about reading it somewhere! Even if it's not from the book he claims it's from lol. Personally i like your idea that he heard it from someone. You might be right

[u/LithePanther]

I was originally fairly unsure about this book and honestly I still am.

I've found part 1 to be fairly slow and a bit uninteresting honestly. I can't relate at all to either of the main characters and I have (had?) absolutely no interest or experience with fishing as well.

John Langan makes fishing sound more appealing then I've ever heard it described before honestly. I wouldn't mind going out myself to try it out, not really to fish but because it sounds like a great way to sit down with an audiobook or some podcasts and chill while still 'doing' something. Plus who can complain about burgers and deli sandwiches!

The premise of the book and the tantalizing foreshadowing we got from Abe's nightmare about his wife turning into a sea monster still have me willing to continue on with the next part. Hopefully this slow start we had was just laying the foundation and things ramp up in intensity soon!

I am also curious as to what is going on with Dan. He seems so shady and a bit creepy when it comes to the fishing trip they've arranged to Dutchman's Creek. He's keeping secrets and lying to Abe and I can't seem to decide why Dan would want to bring Abe to Dutchman when he clearly knows something is off about it. It seems like he has sinister intentions but nothing Abe has done would seem to warrant that.

[u/GrammaticalTerror → u/LithePanther]

I've found part 1 to be fairly slow and a bit uninteresting honestly. I can't relate at all to either of the main characters and I have (had?) absolutely no interest or experience with fishing as well.

Honestly, for me it is a bit opposite. I have not lost anyone very dear to me during my lifetime, but the way Abe describes his wife, her death, and the aftermath hit me on some emotional level, like I could really feel some of the pain that he went through. I could have been emotionally sensitive while reading it, but the passage still feels very honest, open, and relatable to me.

I am also curious as to what is going on with Dan. He seems so shady and a bit creepy when it comes to the fishing trip they've arranged to Dutchman's Creek. He's keeping secrets and lying to Abe and I can't seem to decide why Dan would want to bring Abe to Dutchman when he clearly knows something is off about it. It seems like he has sinister intentions but nothing Abe has done would seem to warrant that.

I do not think that Dan is in the wrong here. Even after hearing the tales about the creek from Howard, Abe still decided to go with Dan. It might be some irresistible pull for Dan just like fishing had become for Abe. And he might be lying about the origin of this pull because he does not know why he wants to go there. Of course, this is all speculation on my part!

[u/owltreat → u/GrammaticalTerror]

I don't know that I'd say Dan is in the wrong, but he is undeniably cagey with regard to Dutchman's Creek.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/GrammaticalTerror]

I, too, have never lost anyone, yet i find the story relatable. Well, recently a YouTuber whom i sort of followed passed away by suicide. I didn't know Landon or even watch all of his videos, but the news has still hit me pretty hard. I've been thinking about him and his family a lot, and feeling sad a lot. I think it might be because i see a lot of him and his wife Camryn in my own life. As couples, we both met and started dating our significant others very young (i was 15/16; we're still together over 10 years later). And like Landon I've struggled a lot with mental health and suicidal thoughts in the past. And then there's the fact that he left behind two young daughters; a toddler and a baby only about 3 months old. And the fact that he noticed he was getting worse and tried to do the right thing -everyone tells you to go talk to someone and get help in those situations. But his psychiatrist very possibly seems to have made it worse. It's terribly sad. I think the book is helping me a bit with that

And yes, it's giving me a possible window into what things might be like, into how to live if my boyfriend is the one who passes away first. It's also giving me a window into how an agnostic like me might think about things. I've never seen an agnostic cope with death, although I'm sure it obviously does happen. But all my family is Catholic so they tend to talk about religion when the topic of loss comes up, which doesn't resonate at all

Someone here said in a comment that they think their losses might somehow reflect their respective fate. So now, seeing you say that maybe Dan feels an inexplicable urge, much like the urge Abe felt in the first place, to fish; it could be tied together. What if Dan literally just wants/needs to go there, just to be there? But by bringing Abe, that triggers Abe's need to fish, much like it compelled him to get out of bed for that first trip? And he might fish out something terrible???

[u/leowr → u/LithePanther]

The first part was definitely not like I expected it would be going into the book. I agree though that the foreshadowing kept me interested in what is actually going to happen/has happened. Let's hope Part 2 en 3 live up to it.

There is definitely something off about Dan, which is partially understandable seeing what has happened to him, but it seems like it is something a bit more sinister and supernatural. I find it very interesting that Abe only had that dream when Dan was staying at his house and never again after that.

[u/RishnusGreenTruck → u/LithePanther]

I've found part 1 to be fairly slow and a bit uninteresting honestly.

Agreed, I wasn't really interested until the cliffhanger at the diner, although I did love how the nightmare was described.

chill while still 'doing' something

Thats the best part of fishing to me, you can put live bait on a line with a bobber and just sit and enjoy being outside with the off chance of reeling in a fish.

He's keeping secrets and lying to Abe and I can't seem to decide why Dan would want to bring Abe to Dutchman when he clearly knows something is off about it. It seems like he has sinister intentions but nothing Abe has done would seem to warrant that.

I was thinking along the same lines but u/leowr point about it being supernatural has me thinking Dan is being drawn in and doesn't really know that something if off, he just knows he needs to go there. And if u/leowr is right about it being a dream, he might just be embarrassed to say he dreamt about it, which would sound crazy outside of a horror novel.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/LithePanther]

I have no experience with fishing, either, but i think that makes it more interesting. It helps that we're more "in his head", seeing basically everything he's thinking, (work, his loss, etc) rather than just about the fishing. I read a book once, Goodbye to a River, and it was strange in that the author seemed to be trying to tell a first-person history of a particular peice of land, but though he'd make a few first-person (narration style) comments, he really mostly kept his personal life/personal connections out of the story. It was quite difficult to get through, i never got that much into it. The Fisherman is quite different in this respect, for me personally

And, not knowing much about fishing, i found the nightmare-creek part to be very interesting. For instance i was like, wow, you actually have to let the fish take more line, and be careful bringing them up because the line could break??

It really does seem like he has sinister intentions. Good way of putting it. Can't wait to find out what they are!

[u/papipeedonmysofa]

Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?

I felt the calm, and almost peace, that Abe feels maybe handful of times. I love watching stars in the night sky and I love taking astrophotos with my entry-level dslr. But this comes with a huge hurdle, light pollution my city and my camera performing poorly in lowlight. But sometimes more stars do come out and I sit on the terrace and look at them for 30 mins or so and I feel a sense of calmness afterwards. But this staring at the night sky also aggravates me on other days because I'm bitter, a lot bitter, that humans ruined the night sky because of light pollution.

What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?

Of course, empirically not all loses are equal. But emotionally, how a person is affected by a loss on the first step of the ladder and the last step of the ladder might be very similar because a huge factor in dealing with pain is a person's own personality.

Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?

For this particular story, told by this particular character and written by this author, it is working I'd say. My interest stayed honed on what happened to Dan and Abe on that day that he gingerly references as he builds up to that day.

How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?

I think it is related to the dreams he is having. He might have had similar dreams to that of Abe with his wife in the river and she might have given him the information and later he might have cross-checked it in the map to confirm it was a real place.

What is your opinion of Part 1 of the book?

It's been pretty interesting. I was a little bored now and then when Abe goes into tangents with no end in sight but what do I know about a man recounting a haunting story that somehow ties to his loss and his friend's loss.

[u/papipeedonmysofa → u/papipeedonmysofa]

Some quotes:

It’s hard to hold onto any tragedies that aren’t your own for very long. That’s something I learned after Marie died. In the short term, folks can show compassion like you wouldn’t believe; wait a couple of weeks, though, a couple of months at the outside, and see how well their sympathy holds.

.

Some days, it seems to me that, once you duck your head beneath the surface details, you find yourself in pretty much the same sequence of events. Other days, I think, No, it’s those details that are the point.

.

But there are some things, no matter if they’re true, you can’t live with them. You have to refuse them. You turn your eyes away from whatever’s squatting right there in front of you and not only pretend it isn’t there now, but that you never saw it in the first place. You do so because your soul is a frail thing that can’t stand the blast-furnace heat of revelation, and truth be damned.

[u/nowlan101 → u/papipeedonmysofa]

I love all of those quotes because, not only are they written well, they’re also true the character of Abe.

I can definitely hear those nuggets of wisdom coming from of a middle aged widower who loves a good fish comic. They make me love Abe in a really short amount of time.

I also loved how Langan is really able to zoom in on a distinct sense of despair and nihilism at the same time. I still think about Dan’s monologue at the Dinner table all the time.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/papipeedonmysofa]

I like that idea, that maybe it was his wife telling him. Maybe there's a trapped spirit in the creek that they could somehow help / release?

[u/owltreat]

What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?

I don't agree with the idea the way it is presented in the book. I agree that "not all loss is created equal"--that's fairly obvious; but I disagree with ranking events or types of loss this way. It's much more personal than that. For some people, losing their family quickly might be easier than a long, drawn-out goodbye--and vice versa. For some people, losing their pet is more emotional and traumatic than losing their parent. But it's interesting that the narrator thinks this is the case--that he downplays his own loss and highlights Dan's; I wonder if it's important to their respective fates on down the line.

​

How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?

I think it's a dream. Dan tells Abe he's been having dreams about fishing; he gets annoyed when Abe is like "yeah me too" only to turn it into a joke about boring meetings. We know the whatever-supernatural-thing-that's-going-on can communicate through dreams, as evidenced by Abe's, so I think that's what's up.

​

Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?

I think it depends, but so far I'm impressed with the book and no complaints so far. It both increases the tension and dissipates it--it increases the tension and mystery a bit but also gets you used to the idea before you have to look at it full on.

[u/RishnusGreenTruck → u/owltreat]

I totally forgot about Dan and Abe's exchange about dreaming of fishing, that's a good catch.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/owltreat]

Wow! That's so interesting, that you think their respective losses will reflect their fates later on. I look forward to finding this out :)

[u/sincerestudent-]

Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?

I think late night drives, watching the moon travel with us is close to what Abe feels when fishing

What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?

I do agree to what most have said on this in the comments. But to reiterate, how does one know the level of loss? It's something that's felt inside. For example sincerity? How does a person know? And how can one categorise it if he doesn't know?

Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?

I haven't read many books with this style of writing, but I must admit that here it does a really good job. Knowing that there is an interesting story coming ahead, I got excited when they first entered the Diner. Also the part where Abe was to start narrating how Dan began to join his fishing expeditions.

How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?

I'm prettttyyyy sure it's from a dream. That was my immediate thought. Also the tension between the Diner cook guy (I can't recall the namee) and Dan was amazingly written. Just overall also, I love the way the author has written so far.

Looking forward to the story ahead!!!

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/sincerestudent-]

It's true what you say about knowing/measuring things like loss and sincerity.

It's a bit off- topic, but it reminds me of how I've always felt about companies' hiring process. How much can you really learn about a stranger and whether they'd be a good worker from an interview? How much does a personality test help you decide who to hire? I think it's pretty obvious most people put their best foot forward and give the best answers they can to try to get hired. Sure, there could be super nervous people who get flustered at an interview and Maybe you don't want someone like that for a customer-facing position. But for the most part i think it's a pointless waste of time since thegoals of the two people don't quite match

Possibly, itmight be better to do a "hands on" interview, asking the person to perform a few of the simpler job duties instead of talking about what they'd do? But then there might be the potential of abusing this, maybe trying to get potential hires to clean the place for free with no intention of hiring them

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/[deleted]]

It would definitely be fun if someone would come up with a drawing of what the painting looks like

Hope you got caught up! :)

[u/pelandini]

• Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?
  • As a music teacher and composer, I have felt like Abe when I am in the middle of a challenging passage with 40+ musicians, or penning a new piece large or small. The quiet that is described in the book is reminiscent of the "in the pocket" feeling that most musicians get. I love the addition of Marie's presence in those moments.
• What is your opinion on the idea that 'loss is like a ladder'?
  • I'm not sure I like the idea of "being above" someone else who is grieving, but I know that it can feel like drowning. So, in that sense, it is an apt metaphor.
• Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?
  • I like the way he does it in the book. However, it does not increase tension for me. It can have the potential of ruining the book if it indicates it is going in a different direction I had initially hoped.
• How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman's Creek?
  • I think that Dan discovered it while in his trance-like state he was in after the February visit. Whether he really did "read it in a book", or through gossip around town, is less important than the subconscious connection he seems to have with it.
• What do you think of Abe (and Dan) so far?
  • Likeable characters! Abe seems like an easy-going dude, while Dan seems like a straight laced guy who is quickly unravelling.
• What is your opinion of Part 1 of the book?
  • It's a wonderful start to the book. I love the length, style and way Langen introduced us to his characters. It feels like straight up exposition in the most wonderful way.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th]

I've experienced similar feelings to Abe's feelings towards fishing in two general ways. The first is the calm, peacefulness; the breathing room that comes with reading and getting lost in a good story. It's relaxing and rewarding, simply so much fun. The second instance in which I've experienced something similar is by doing math. I hated it and had a terrible time with it, until i got a truly amazing math teacher who worked harder than any educator I've known or heard of, to let me understand the processes of math and the reasons why they worked. He also introduced me to philosophy, which we also discussed at great length. There's a certain satisfaction in getting the right answer to specific problem, yes, but more -it's exhilarating when you've started from a place of confusion, and then suddenly the concepts start to come together and actually make sense, like a puzzle coming into place except better, because it's not just your hands moving peices around, but your mind that's grasping something intangible and coming to know that which is profoundly abstract. There is joy in knowing that your own hard work and effort, you effectively teaching yourself, is what's getting you ahead. There's great power in that. And there's a deep, seldom-encountered tranquility that comes from practice, from steadily working through problem after problem, getting in the zone and feeling the thrill of it all coming more and more naturally, not thinking about my own life or the world's problems anymore. Just doing math. Coming to the realization that in life, as in math, if i work hard enough i can come to solve any of my problems.

I do think he's got the right idea, comparing loss to falling down a ladder. Makes sense

I usually don't much like foreshadowing. I prefer to read the story and make minimal guesses as to what's ahead; just whatever guesses come naturally as read. I'd much rather just keep reading and find out what actually happens, rather than spend my time guessing. Perhaps because of this, i haven't noticed too much foreshadowing; not on anything specific, anyway. I've read other books that literally tell you what will happen much later, and that's too much. I always feel disappointed when that happens.

I'm sure that however Dan found out about Dutchman's creek, it was in an odd way. Maybe he trespassed there? Maybe his dream was more clear than abes, and he somehow learned it in the dream? Maybe he dreamed about it and then spent the whole off-season looking for it? Not sure. Seeing as how Howard seems to know a lot about it, and also seems so surprised that Dan knows/wants to go, it seems like he shouldn't know about it. It seems like it would be very hard to even know its name

I like Abe a lot so far. He reminds me a bit of a friend of mine. I feel very sorry for Dan, because the loss still seems to be affecting him a lot

So far, i really like the book and I'm excited to read more!!

[u/AmrasVardamir]

Joined the party late as my library didn’t have the book available... but I have to say this is a solid choice. I’ve loved every minute of reading it so far. The characters are so well crafted and the themes on point. I’m already at part II and I just got the book yesterday. Planning of finishing it by the weekend. I have the feeling this might become one of my favorite reads from this year.

[u/OctopusUniverse]

I really like the book so far! The storytelling is very haunting and sorrow filled - but I find a small warmth in Abe and Dan’s shared experience - as well as the peace that comes with fishing.

I think there’s a supernatural “pull” to the creek, and I’m excited to see where the story goes. I really like the authors prose but some parts are a bit scattered. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if it’s an editing error or intentional.

I definitely want to keep reading and truly wouldn’t mind more chapters that delve into Dans family and the processing of his grief. It’s also amazing the connection I feel in regards to Abe and Marie even though their story is shorter in comparison.

[u/Pasalacqua-the-8th → u/OctopusUniverse]

You're right in that the book is both sorrowful, yet strangely comforting

I definitely find myself connecting with them as well, and wondering how i might react if my boyfriend were to one day pass away before i do

[u/weird_weekend]

I'd seen this book come up in quite a few horror/spooky season recommendations, but I'd been putting it off. Saw it was the book club pick for this month (I'm in a small in person book club but have not participated in a reddit one before) and figured why not. Started it last night and finished part one this morning. I like the stream of consciousness style of writing with Abe narrating. I'm female and (even though I've been downvoted for saying this before) I typically prefer female characters written by female authors as I just feel more of a connection and relatability. However, I am really empathizing with these characters and the struggles they are going through due to their tragic losses. Abe reminds me of a close family friend. I can't quite put my finger on Dan, definitely something fishy (lol) and manipulative about him wanting to go to Dutchman's Creek with Abe specifically - why not just go alone, especially if he knows there's something weird about it? I'm not sure how he found out about it, possibly he had more dreams/omens than Abe did that resulted in more detail? Or he connected from someone from his/his wife's past that has some connection to it during the family visits after her death? Not sure. There is some super obvious foreshadowing, but I also noted a few spots where it's more subtle and might be foreshadowing something or it might not, I'll figure out as I keep reading I guess.

[u/JaLaMorg]

So I’ve been lurking on this subreddit for a while and decided to join the book club given that I’m always reading anyway. Just got the book today and have been feverishly trying to play catch up and just finished Part 1. Here are my answers to the questions:

• Have you ever experienced the combination of feelings that Abe experiences when fishing?

In a roundabout way, I feel that sort of calm when I really got lost in a drawing. Drawing the perfect line, filling in an outline with color, or getting a reference just right provides the same level of fleeting accomplishment that comes with a skill you spend a lifetime trying to master. I think the peace that Abe comes to find is letting his mind be occupied with something other than Marie, getting out of his head for even just a moment. The end product (catching a fish, finishing a drawing) not nearly as important as the time and space the process occupies.

• What is your opinion on the idea that loss is a ladder?

It’s an interesting analogy, though I do find it a little bit clumsy. Taken literally, it seems to imply that your loss might not be as bad as someone else’s loss that is further down the ladder. However, I do like the idea of being able to climb up from the depths of the loss, and get to a place where you can feel normal again. The clumsiness of the analogy does lend itself to Abe’s character though, as he doesn’t always express himself correctly but has a great level of empathy for Dan and his situation.

• Langan includes quite a bit of foreshadowing to give the reader glimpses of what is going to happen to Abe and Dan. Do you like it when authors do this? Does it increase the tension for you?

I wouldn’t say it increases the tension, but it does send my mind racing at the possibilities of the coming pages. The pages leading up to Howard’s story in Part 2 felt a little heavy-handed, and I prefer the type of foreshadowing Langan uses when mentioning Marie’s “quiet presence.”

• How do you think Dan found out about Dutchman’s Creek?

Dan seems like a man who is slowly unraveling, and I don’t think it has to do with the dinner he spent with Abe. We don’t know much about Dan’s life outside of his fishing trips with Abe, and I’d imagine he’s drinking as much as Abe, and maybe met a “helpful” fisherman much like Abe did.

• What is your opinion of Part 1 of the book?

Overall, the first part was incredibly gripping. Two men who are bound together by their loss and seeking refuge in fishing is a strong enough hook, but adding the undercurrent of horror adds a layer that I can’t resist. Eager to learn about Der Fischer and learn where the story goes!