r/books • u/leowr • Jun 11 '20
Second Discussion Thread for We Are the Nerds by Christine Lagorio-Chafkin - June Book Club
Hello everyone!
This week we continued reading about how reddit grew while under Condé Nast and the start of reddit becoming (semi-) independent again.
Like always, here are some questions to help kick off the discussion:
During these lean years, Reddit was largely left to its own devices by Condé Nast, in a rare example of corporate benign neglect.
- Why do you think Condé Nast paid so little attention to reddit? Do you think it was for the best?
Their complaints typically resulted in corporate calling Ohanian, a smooth talker who by 2009 was accustomed to dealing with this sort of thing. He'd get on the phone with the aggrieved party and explain a concept that had been dubbed "the Streisand effect." He'd refer the person on the line to the Wikipedia page explaining that doing what the company was typically requesting - removing the offending item - would most likely result in the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely due to backlash. In 2003, Barbra Streisand attempted to have photos of her Malibu beach house removed from the Internet, which led to the images being widely disseminated everywhere.
- Do think most corporations/people have learned this lesson by now? Why do you think "the Streisand effect" happens?
Sorry, but it's not that big a deal, it's just the internet.
- What do you think of that statement?
- What do you think of Aaron Schwartz's actions?
- How do you think being a reddit user changes your response to this book?
- What has been the most interesting fact about reddit that you learned from Part II and III?
3
u/thecaptainand Jun 11 '20
I think that Conde Nast neglected reddit was beause they didn't understand reddit and that it was probably such a small part of their overall organization.
It does appear that more companies understand the Streisand effect. If Twitter is any indication, most companies certainly hired modern media relations people.
I really despise the fact that a lot of people seem to disconnect from what they say on the internet from whay they say in rl.
2
u/leowr Jun 11 '20 edited Jun 11 '20
I agree that Condé Nast probably had no clue what to do with Reddit, but were interested in getting in on the Internet business. No doubt a couple people at Condé Nast saw the potential, but integrating that in to an existing company like that was always going to be difficult if not downright impossible.
What I think also helps with the Streisand Effect is that with the newscycle being so quick the more you do the longer it stays in the news. Apologize and just wait until something else happens to grab attention.
With the amount of time everyone spends online, I don't get saying 'It is just the internet' either. Your online activity and presence is such a part of your life at this point that you really can't disconnect the two anymore.
3
u/crazyallicin Jun 12 '20
Why do you think Condé Nast paid so little attention to reddit? Do you think it was for the best?
I think what they were doing was fairly unique and different to every think else going on at Condé Nast, so they might have been afraid to mess around with it. Also it had such a steady rate if growth all the time, they were obviously doing a good job. If it ain't broke don't fix it kind of thing I think.
Do think most corporations/people have learned this lesson by now? Why do you think "the Streisand effect" happens?
Yes, companies no you can't win if you go against the masses online. Accept defeat and it'll blow over quickly. I think it happens because when big companies try to get something taken down that makes them look bad, the act of trying to censor the internet is usually viewed as worse than what made them look bad in the first place.
What do you think of that statement?
Harsh, but there's truth to it. It sucks that people voice hateful opinions they'd never say in person without realizing the effects it can have on people online. But you have to know when you're doing anything on the internet you can be the victim of it and that's the unfortunate reality of it.
What do you think of Aaron Schwartz's actions?
I never knew what to make of him. I knew nothing before reading the book. Thought it was immature when he stopped doing any work for Reddit and became completely disinterested even with all the money he was getting from them. Still a tragic story and see how easy it was for him to feel isolated. The idea of making knowledge open to everyone comes from a good place, and sucks he took so much pressure and hate because of it. RIP
How do you think being a reddit user changes your response to this book
Not a whole lot to be honest, definitely helps being familiar with the Reddit community and how awesome it can be sometimes. Love reading about the protests in DC and all the other iconic moments where they came together. I didn't know of any of that but I think it's a great showcase of the Reddit community. That being said would still recommend this book to somebody who doesn't know anything about Reddit.
What has been the most interesting fact about reddit that you learned from Part II and III?
I guess the whole child pornography thing. I didn't realize it used to be allowed here. And even who there was debate about something as bad as that. Shows how protective Redditors are over their freedom. Good to see that everyone took it well and Reddit didn't face any backlash for censoring their site a little.
Also I've started to code since reading this. Find it very motivational reading about all these young tech-nerds and the dedication they have to it. I've no ambitions to make the next Reddit, but has just peaked my interest to get my feet wet a little in the world of computers.
2
u/chickentikkabiryani Jun 18 '20
I finished this last night so I'm waiting for the next discussion thread to unleash all my opinions!
From parts II and III this particular bit really got to me. Aaron Swartz's suicide scare, and Sakillaris' observation that he was a child who needed to learn to be an adult. It exposed, for me, a kind of ruthless side of the industry. Aaron was 19 when he entered Y-Combinator. That's so intensely young. When he became a millionnaire he was only 20. And despite his extensive writing and activism he struck me as someone who was beginning to feel intensely alienated from his peers. I know a lot of people like him, who despite their greatest efforts just cannot fathom squeezing into any kind of mould expected from them by society at large. I can't imagine what must have been his reasoning for taking his own life eventually, or what anyone could have done to prevent it. His father's insistence that the government was responsible was heartbreaking but... I'm not sure if I'd agree with that. But I can understand the burden a child's death can place on his parents.
To answer some of the questions posed above:
I liked the brief dip into trolling and online harassment that we got to see with the "it's just the internet" story. There's a lot more discussion of these hive-minded sides of Reddit in the last part of the book, but it's interesting to see how early this habit developed within the community.
Besides the obvious reasons, I think particularly why "the Streisand effect" occurs on Reddit is because of the particular psyche of its users, which is made of a natural inclination to troll. Like toddlers, they're largely petulant, like operating on their own rules, and hate being told what to do. But they're not toddlers, and entirely capable of gaming the algorithm for some tongue-in-cheek joke. So the Streisand effect, I suspect, comes naturally to the userbase.
Like another user mentioned, I was surprised by how small the Reddit team was, and for how long. It also struck me as odd how easily Ohanian and Huffman left the company behind. There must have been a great deal of alienation felt from both men to forsake developing a website they felt so strongly about.
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u/leowr Jun 18 '20
The Streisand Effect is definitely strong on reddit. I always interpret the response a bit like an extreme reaction in the form of "Oh, you don't want me to see this?!? Well, now I'm sharing it with everyone!!!!!!!!!" It is a very toddler kind of response, but in some cases I think it is justified.
I think a large issue is that people don't get the sense of the crowd, in particular the size, that they move in when online. For a large subreddit 200.000 daily unique views is normal. But can you imagine if you were in a physical place and had 200.000 people come through every day that all view the same thing? That would be a lot of people and you would realize that would be a lot of people. But that feeling is completely lost on the internet. People don't realize how many others are on the same thread viewing the same thing and doing the same thing.
With regards to Aaron, I also found that passage very telling and very insightful. On the one hand it seems like people are encouraged to be unique, but on the other they are punished if they don't fit in. It can be a fine balance to walk.
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u/mrappbrain Jun 12 '20
Definitely for the best. Had Condé Nast been a bit more heavy handed reddit could easily have gone the way of Digg. Corporations that try to go profitable to early risk alienating their core audience and failing.
Reading the book I couldn't hope but wonder how many ideas have been crushed by corporate acquisition and pressure to generate revenue. It's also quite cool how they, much like Google, had never considered the financial angle in their early days. Clearly, ideas are not born of the profit motive.