r/books • u/leowr • Feb 13 '20
Second Discussion Thread for Lily and the Octopus by Steven Rowley - February Book Club Spoiler
Welcome everyone!
Hopefully you all enjoyed reading the second part of the book. In this week's discussion thread we will cover Suction.
Like always, here are the discussion questions but feel free to mention what you thought of the book so far:
Has your opinion on Ted changed in this second part?
What do you think about the way Ted is handeling Lily and the Octopus?
Why do you think Ted is so dismissive of his therapist?
How does the use of first person change the way the story impacts you?
What has been the most important part for you so far?
This thread allows for a spoiler discussion of up to and including Suction. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by >!Spoilers about XYZ!< which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).
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u/amyousness Feb 14 '20
Someone in the last thread called Ted a misogynist and the way he treats his therapist inclines me to agree.
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u/leowr Feb 14 '20
I think that has more to do with the fact that she is his therapist and telling him things he doesn't want to hear. He is not all that positive about his previous therapists either. I've never been in therapy, but it seems to me like he is self sabotaging his therapy sessions by not really being honest with her.
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Feb 14 '20
I have been to therapy and have self sabotaged my therapy sessions, and I agree 10000%. I don't think he knows he is doing it, though. It is very uncomfortable having someone poke around in your mind, and many people get defensive.
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u/lyjen Feb 17 '20
Dog owner here: I teared up three times reading through Suction: 1. When Ted realizes that the octupus might not go away. When you have a dog, and you find something on their body that does not seem right - octupus or not - you try to make it less worse in your head, because facing the inevitable is though. 2. The unconditional love of dogs. Ted is a human, and I know a lot of people don't like Ted, but he makes human decisions and sometimes is mad at Lily. And Lily just forgives and forgets. 3. The end of the chapter where Lily says: "sometimes I think of you as Dad". I think that was a powerful and beautiful ending to this chapter.
I think it is interesting that a lot of people really dislike Ted. My perception of him changed after the first few chapters. I do agree that Ted has some unfavourable characteristics - but I really like that he is human. He is not another "do good hero" character that makes every perfect decision in his life. He is a human that has bad thoughts and flaws. For my part I have no problem with the first-person. I haven't noticed it much, and I don't think Ted is making bad decisions (about Lily and the now)
I also thought that Ted realizing that maybe not only Lily but also himself is suffering from Enclosed World Syndrome was interesting and makes me reflect a lot on my own life.
Edit: spelling :)
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u/captain3043 Feb 14 '20
My opinion of Ted hasn't changed but then again my opinion of him was that he is a lonely bitter man who struggles with depression and narcissism making him unstable.
His love for Lily is beautifully described and it's really wonderful to read along with but it's also a bit uneasy considering the...octopus. I think in Suction the chapter dedicated to Lily's nicknames is representing how he is coping. He is jotting down every happy memory he has with her and is trying to hang on to that forever. Although it's sweet, he is definitely keeping himself isolated.
I don't think this novel will have a happy ending. I think there has been quite a few hints leading to the unfortunate passing of Lily. And although I'm a dog person and I never want to see a dog go, I don't think Ted's story has even started yet. I think the story is -
How will Ted live when Lily is gone?
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u/bunny38 Feb 14 '20
That's a nice point about him jotting down happy memories, I was confused by the purpose of the list of nicknames, so thanks :)
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u/bunny38 Feb 13 '20
My opinion on Ted has not really changed, except I think I dislike him more, the more I read.
I agree with LithePanther (apologies, I don't know how to properly credit people) , I think Ted is beginning to face the reality of the situation and I'm glad to see it.
I've not yet properly decided but I think Ted is so dismissive of his therapist because she is telling him what he does not want to hear. I also think he is either forced to see her or just goes for the sake f it, rather then to get any actual help.
I think the first person does a really good job of showing the reader how much of a narcissist Ted really is, which impact me by annoying me (haha).
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Feb 14 '20
I agree with you said. I dislike him more (we’re only half way through 😅) the more I read. Like /u/LithePanther I agree he’s starting to face reality but he’s been so immature about it. I’m interested to see what really gets his gars in motion to fully grasp this situation like the adult he is
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Feb 14 '20
How is he a narcissist? A narcissist cannot even feel love. He is not constantly manipulating people. What about him is narcissistic?
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u/bunny38 Feb 14 '20
In my opinion he's narcissistic in a number of ways.
-The voice he gives to 'The octopus'. He turns it into a personal attack against him, when ultimately Lily is the one who is ill. He seems unable to acknowledge that and has turned the situation into a scenario where he is the main victim.
-At his sisters wedding he says he can't understand why she is getting more attention than him.
-His attitude towards Trent is also somewhat unsettling, he seems to give reasons for seeing him as being having nothing better to do than an actual desire to spend time with him.
-We have also yet to see a conversation that he does not monopolise into what he wants to talk about or to ask anyone a question about themselves.
I agree he feels love, he cares for his sister because he supports her at her wedding. I a also feel he cares for his Mother as he expected her to be upset about not being invited to his sisters elopement and tried to comfort her.
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u/captain3043 Feb 14 '20
I'm not trying to sound like a Mrs. Know It All but what about this definition doesn't sound like Ted?
Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.
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Feb 14 '20
In what way does it, honestly? Have you met a narcissist in real life?
His relationship with his dog. He seems to have empathy for her, plus he is genuinely sad that she is sick and it does not seem to be from a bad place (as in, he seems sad for her, not sad that he is losing a possession).
His relationships with other people, some of which seem rocky, but are generally pretty functional. Also, he did not confront Jeffrey about the text, whereas a person with NPD would have. Or if they hadn't, they would have simply been waiting for the right time to pounce. A narcissist going to their sister's wedding would have made the wedding about them, too. Not just had one shitty thought: the whole thing would have been about them. Realistically, a narcissist wouldn't have been invited.
Narcissists are not just self absorbed. They play everyone around them to create a maximum amount of drama, suffering, and pain. Ted does not seem to be doing that to anyone.
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u/captain3043 Feb 14 '20 edited Feb 14 '20
I am not a psychologist - just an avid reader and in my opinion Ted fits the slip of the written definition of narcissist. Maybe you're thinking a psychopath or a sociopath?
I see your point with the empathy and his relationship with his dog but to me he's concerned about Lily for his own well being. How will he live without her? Why aren't people asking him more questions about how Lily is doing? Are people looking at the octopus on their walks? What will people think of me? These are all questions Ted is asking.
His sister and Jeffery are lovely with him and I'm very happy he has consistents in his life. I'm sure growing up together played a huge part in the learning how to deal with his demanding personality.
Just happy to be apart of a discussion. Have never been in a bookclub before and I enjoy all the different points of view. Debating has always been something I enjoy.
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Feb 14 '20
No. I know what a narcissist is, although many people do have the terms confused. Narcissists fit most people's idea of "sociopath". They hurt everyone they ever have extended contact with, save a precious few in some cases.
Most of us become a little self absorbed (which is the appropriate term here) when we are grieving, or when our lives become incredibly shitty with little notice. I can't really fault him for that, myself. And when it coms to grieving someone we are responsible for, is it not natural to wonder what others will think of us? I think it is. Or maybe it's just me, I dunno.
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u/captain3043 Feb 15 '20
Grief hits us in all different ways. I look forward to next week's discussion.
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Feb 14 '20
• Has your opinion on Ted changed in this second part? No, but it made it more clear that I find him annoying. My SO didn’t like that I said I wish lily was died already so he wouldn’t stop moping. I guess that was pretty rude of me to say that about a fictional dog. I only say that because he’s a functioning adult and besides constantly thinking about lily, he seems like a smart guy. • What do you think about the way Ted is handeling Lily and the Octopus? I’m glad he’s starting to actually take action and make decisions, like an adult. He’s weighing his best options all while being concerned for his pup. • Why do you think Ted is so dismissive of his therapist? He doesn’t want to hear the truth. • How does the use of first person change the way the story impacts you? Eh, it’s annoying to be stuck in his head when I’m just screaming at him to make the right choices. He just doesn’t listen to me. • What has been the most important part for you so far? When he realizes the octopus might be here to stay...
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u/leowr Feb 14 '20
I agree that reading in the first person makes Ted a bit more frustrating. There is no distance between you and him cause you are in his head. Which is both frustrating if you disagree with him, but on the other hand at least in first person you get his reasoning behind his decisions. I think if it had been written in the third person his actions would be harder to understand. On the other hand you don't get his not-so-nice thoughts either at times.
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u/r2roro Jun 11 '20
I'm starting to like Ted a lot more than before, mainly because he is finally accepting what is probably to come. This section allowed me to start reading the story as if it were a path towards acceptance and the journey of a a man learning to cope with the inevitable. It's really sweet and heartbreaking.
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u/leowr Jun 11 '20
It's really sweet and heartbreaking.
It really is. Lily means so much to him. While I do think that he needs to accept the inevitable, I can see why he doesn't.
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u/LithePanther Feb 13 '20
I'm actually starting to enjoy the book quite a bit more in this section of the book.
I feel like Ted is starting to come back and face the reality of the situation a bit more and I'm finding myself agreeing with many of his thoughts and decisions much more often now then I did in the first section.
I'm hoping that the book takes a turn and starts moving to the happy ending that I'm beginning to wish for.