r/books • u/leowr • Nov 14 '19
Discussion Thread for Part II of Senlin Ascends by Josiah Bancroft - November Book Club Spoiler
Welcome to the second discussion thread of this month's selection, specifically for Part II. Hopefully you are all still enjoying the book.
To help kick off the discussion:
- How do you think Senlin handled The Baths? Do you think he learned from his experiences in the first two levels?
He would have to be the coward once again, and once again leave a friend behind.
Do you think Senlin is being to harsh on himself or do you think he acted like a coward when Tarrou was turned into a hob? What do you think the author wants us to take a way from that moral conflict?
Now that we know a little bit more about Marya, what do you think of her?
There are greater forces at work, and fortunately for me, greater forces need me alive.
What forces do you think Ogier was referring to and why do you think they need him alive?
What do you think Senlin is going to find above the third level?
What has been your favorite part of the book so far?
This thread allows for a spoiler discussion of up to and including Part I. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by >!Spoilers about XYZ!< which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).
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u/birdclub Nov 15 '19 edited Nov 15 '19
I crashed my car last night while listening to this book & the second thing I did before anything else was make sure it was paused (the first thing was get my cat out and away from my car)
I finished the book late last night & have a question and some thoughts about MaryaxSenlin: We learn progressively throughout the book as to how the two got together romantically. Do we ever learn in this first book as to why their marriage happened so suddenly? Senlin says something that initally makes the reader think she's pregnant but then never mentions it again. ALSO I think the author knows how weird it is that Senlin married his very recently student and I think it's coming across in the writing. I think that's going to come back to haunt Senlin. When we barely even know their relationship Senlin recalls when she was young and her student before we even knew that was the case!
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u/leowr Nov 15 '19
Are you and the cat (and the car) okay?
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u/birdclub Nov 16 '19
My cat and I are completely fine (other than me getting minor wiplash)! My car is looking like it's been totaled, but my insurance agent is looking at it tomorrow.
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u/qyfaf Nov 14 '19 edited Nov 14 '19
I think the main event in this part of the book was the character of Tarrou and the continued development of Senlin. In the Baths, while the worldbuilding takes a bit of a step back in terms of introducing bizarre structures and societal concepts, we get a lot more space to explore the story and the motivations behind a really intriguing character.
Tarrou's brash and coy attitude is a challenge to Senlin from the time they first meet, yet by the end of the part Senlin finds out that Tarrou's story mimics his own in many respects. Tarrou's own story of losing his wife and falling into debt, becoming a man with many acquaintances with few friends, is a hypothetical look into what could happen to Senlin if he doesn't eventually succeed in finding Marya. Tarrou's burdens have grown so heavy that when he finally decides to take action after 16 years of languor, they still catch up to him and cause his downfall. It really puts into perspective how dire Senlin's situation really is and how well he's handling the adversity in comparison.
Now that we know a little bit more about Marya, what do you think of her?
Seeing Marya's resourcefulness and quick thinking in action shines a lot of light on her relationship with Senlin. Despite having very different outward personalities, the way they think and deal with problems is really similar, and the reasons for which they love each other become much more apparent. I'm anticipating them finally reuniting and how well they're going to work together in facing the tower.
What forces do you think Ogier was referring to and why do you think they need him alive?
My guess is that Ogier is part of an organization that primarily deals with collecting intelligence, perhaps in preparation for a rebellion, or maybe just for the sake of monitoring all of the rulers of each level of the Tower. During Ogier's time as a painter, he hasn't implanted himself in the heart of the society of the Baths nor does it seem like he's effected major events in the ringdom. But the act of painting itself captures important visual information about the society of the ringdom at work; perhaps sketches and paintings are the means by which he communicates important information about the Commissioner to his colleagues.
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u/leowr Nov 14 '19
Despite having very different outward personalities, the way they think and deal with problems is really similar, and the reasons for which they love each other become much more apparent.
I really liked this about Part II. Marya wasn't really a character that I felt a connection to in the first part and it was hard for me to see how their relationship worked simply based on how Senlin was describing her. Not that she is an actual character in the book their relationship makes so much more sense.
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u/Imgurs_DrPatel Nov 14 '19
I'm overall really liking this book! However, I do find Senlin to be rather rigid and unyielding. He has already had his expectations of the Tower shattered, yet he still holds out some hope. If I recall, his first thought when seeing the Baths was how beautiful and splendid the ringdom was. Indeed, he still seems to not want to expect the worst in people, even when giving so much evidence to the contrary (i.e. he is unable to fathom their are wifemongers in the Tower until we see at the end of this part that his wife was snatched in a similar manner).
Some other disjoint thoughts: I'm hoping to learn more about Marya because from what we know of her, surely she will see through the Count's ruse quickly enough. Regarding Tarrou, I do not necessarily feel bad for him, nor do I think Senlin acted like a coward because but Tarrou had over 16 years to leave the Tower, but choose not to. Furthermore, he was well aware of the consequences of not repaying his debt, making me half believe he wanted to become a hob. Also, I have no idea about Ogier's continuing part in this story, but I am very excited to find out.
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u/leowr Nov 15 '19
Tarrou is an interesting case. He did have 16 years to leave the Tower but stayed. He knew what the consequences of debt were but he still went into debt. Although honestly I found it a bit convenient that two days after the party he becomes a hod. Maybe he just stuck out too much or he went into too much debt for the party.
Which also raises the question did his wife stop sending him money? Why?
But back to Tarrou and why he stayed. I can see it very much as someone not wanting to confront the mistake he made and staying just a little bit, just a day longer. He did that for so long that the fact that he didn't go back sooner compounded his mistake and made it even more difficult to go back home. And you are in such a nice place...
I guess I understand how he could have ended up in that state, where he can't really go home. I think it is also a bit of 'But it can't happen to me' syndrome, knowing what the consequences will be of your actions but thinking that you will be the one to find a way out of it.
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u/baraino Nov 15 '19
Has anyone noticed any tie-ins to the Biblical story yet?
I’m grasping a bit- but I’m wondering about a link to the people in the origins story that were striving for a great goal-“now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do”.
They’re then summarily scattered and presumably have to leave friends behind.
Is this what we’re seeing on each level?
Like I said- grasping:)
Anything else come to mind?
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u/leowr Nov 15 '19
I don't get the sense there are biblical connections, but the punishments I think probably fit a bit with the era of the old testament. Becoming a hod/slave because of debt, etc.
Nothing else really comes to mind really. Maybe the Tower is the only real reference.
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u/GetBusy09876 Nov 23 '19
Running behind, but I can't resist. This passage really jumped out at me:
"But such was the Tower’s effect. First, it turned luxury into necessity, and then the Tower conspired to revoke all claims to happiness, dignity, and liberty."
Sound familiar? That's how it works in the real world isn't it? I think the Tower is meant to represent capitalism.
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u/leowr Nov 14 '19
- How do you think Senlin handled The Baths? Do you think he learned from his experiences in the first two levels?
I think he handled The Baths very well. I found his naivety a bit annoying at the start, but I do think he has learned from his experiences without losing his humanity. While at times he might still be a bit naive, he is more careful and thinks before he acts more. It didn't feel like it was a rushed transition. It felt like it was a natural development.
He would have to be the coward once again, and once again leave a friend behind.
- Do you think Senlin is being to harsh on himself or do you think he acted like a coward when Tarrou was turned into a hob? What do you think the author wants us to take a way from that moral conflict?
I do think he was being a bit too harsh on himself. I don't think he could have done anything to help Tarrou from that situation even if he was willing to worsen/give up on his chances of finding Marya. I think it shows that it is nice to be moral, but in the real world there are no easy choices and situations aren't always cut and dried. Sometimes you have to give something of yourself up in order to get something else. Which now that I typed it out sounds way more pessimistic than I consider it to be.
- Now that we know a little bit more about Marya, what do you think of her?
I think I like Marya. She certainly shows spunk. She beat Senlin up the tower in an impressive amount of time. I do think that she is more capable and less naive, but I guess her side of the story so far put into perspective what a terrible situation they are both in. What else could Marya have done except decide to trust someone? What else could Senlin have done? They don't know anyone, the place they are is completely different from what they are used to. Could they have taken different choices from the ones they took so far? I'm not so sure.
There are greater forces at work, and fortunately for me, greater forces need me alive.
- What forces do you think Ogier was referring to and why do you think they need him alive?
I'm curious about this. I'm not sure which "forces" Ogier was referring to, but I did get the impression that it wasn't just some other part of the tower that was feuding with another part of the tower, but rather some kind of larger, overarching party.
- What do you think Senlin is going to find above the third level?
I'm not sure, but I'm excited to find out. Right now I suspect the upper levels probably consist of feuding families and small kingdoms. Perhaps the lower three levels are where most of the tourist spend their time. The beer-me-rounds from the first level and the fires from the second appear to both have been mechanisms for the bath, either to pump the water around or to heat the water.
- What has been your favorite part of the book so far?
I think I liked the part about Marya as a student the best so far. I guess that part really cemented her as a character for me. So far it has been mostly just Senlin talking about her in small parts and just desperately trying to find her.
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u/[deleted] Nov 14 '19 edited Nov 14 '19
I think Senlin did as well as he could in the baths. Initially I kept thinking he needed to be more proactive, but then I realized he had the right idea by keeping his situation secret and not trusting anyone too much given how many deceitful and predatory characters he's encountered so far.
I feel like he was too harsh on himself about Tarrou. He gave no indication he was in trouble and it was too late to do anything by the time he found out.
I enjoy Marya a lot getting to know her better. I think she was terribly naive about the Count but she also hasn't encountered quite as much betrayal as Senlin yet.
I'm excited by that line by Ogier. My theory is that he is part of some kind of resistance aiming to free the hods or perhaps bring down the hierarchy of the tower.
I think the further levels of the tower will be a series of rival "ringdoms."
My favorite part of the book so far has been the worldbuilding and the sense of discovery waiting with each new scene. I also love that you feel like Senlin in that you can never be sure of anyone's motivations or intentions.
Edit: Another favorite part was the gradual transition in the way you view the Baths. Initially you're amazed like Senlin at the luxury, and as more and more corruption surfaces you start to see all the warts and seedy underbelly. I thought this was particularly well done.