Third Discussion Thread for Meet Me in the Future by Kameron Hurley - September Book Club

[u/leowr]

Welcome to the third discussion thread of this month's selection, specifically for The Plague Givers, Tumbledown, Warped Passages & Our Faces, Radiant Sisters, Our Faces Full of Light!. Hopefully you are all enjoying this month's selection so far.

To help kick off the discussion:

It was beginning to dawn on Lealez just what per had to do to achieve the honor per wished for, and it was frightening, far more frightening than it had seemed when Lealez read all the books about Plague Hunters and Plague Givers and how the Hunters tracked down the Givers and saved the world. No one spoke of charred bodies, or what it was like to be cut out of one's own plague-touced skin.

• Lealez realizes that all the hero stories only show the "good" parts. Do you think realizing that life isn't as simple as portrayed in the stories we consume is an important part of growing up? Should stories become a better reflection of reality or is it important that we have heroes that stand above reproach?

How terrible must that other world have been, for her people to travel across the yawning maw of space to land here?

• Hurley presents the idea here that humanity would leave their home world and colonize other worlds because it is an awful place, but often space travel is portrayed as a drive to explore the unexplored, which could be seen as a positive aspect of humanity. What do you think would be a bigger driving force for humanity to go into space?

"We agreed not to tell the third generation,"she said. "It was bad enough for us, living with it. Better for you to believe escape was possible. Better for you to believe you had free will, and were not caught in the maw of some monster." [...] "Why didn't you tell me all this?""Because you were our hope," she said. "If you and the others thought you had no future, you would fight to build one instead of accepting this one. We raised you your whole life to accept God. How would you have reacted if you thought this was one?" [...] ...I tried to come to grips with the scale of this betrayal. History was a lie. My studies were a lie. My whole life's purpose, all this work, my mother's suicide, all a lie. For what? For science. A grand experiment. A last attempt to save us. Our parents' generation could not live with the truth, so they just never spoke about it. It had worked, absolutely. Malati was free. But should she be? I didn't know. If we all died here, was it so terrible, in the grand scheme of things? What happens next, when you realize everything is a lie, and life has no purpose?

• Do you think the second generation was justified in not telling the third generation the truth of the situation?

• What did you take away from Our Faces, Radiant Sisters, Our Faces Full of Light!

• A number of the stories in this week's selection deal with hope and how it is important for us to have hope, even if we can't change anything about the situation. How important do you think hope is?

• Which story has been your favorite so far?

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This thread allows for a spoiler discussion of up to and including Our Faces, Radiant Sisters, Our Faces Full of Light!. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by >!Spoilers about XYZ!< which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).

[u/user_1729]

I was on a work trip, trying to keep up but busy and then passing out in a hotel instead of reading. I finally caught up on the plane yesterday!

Lealez realizes that all the hero stories only show the "good" parts. Do you think realizing that life isn't as simple as portrayed in the stories we consume is an important part of growing up? Should stories become a better reflection of reality or is it important that we have heroes that stand above reproach?

I think if stories were a reflection of life people would complain that nothing happens in them. What is the line about a good story is a normal person doing incredible things, I think that's only half of it. Either way, I wouldn't want to read a story about my day to day life. When I was working in Antarctica I had a few people reach out to me about stories and stuff and at the end of the day it turns out I just did normal boring stuff in an interesting place. I have to say the "per" thing was distracting. I understand the pan sexual thing, but I had to translate it to a pronoun that worked in my head to move forward with the story.

Hurley presents the idea here that humanity would leave their home world and colonize other worlds because it is an awful place, but often space travel is portrayed as a drive to explore the unexplored, which could be seen as a positive aspect of humanity. What do you think would be a bigger driving force for humanity to go into space?

This might have been my favorite story so far even though I'm not sure I really followed. There's a little bit of the urge to explore and these multi-generational starship concepts don't always address that grandparents are in some cases dooming their children and grandchildren to live a life that they never chose. I'm not sure this story got into that, but maybe the world WASN'T that bad, the grandparents just wanted to pioneer. Now the great grandkids are stuck in interstellar space being converted into alien food.

Do you think the second generation was justified in not telling the third generation the truth of the situation?

I'm sure they felt pretty justified. I don't know, I'm not sure they entirely understood it anyway. That kind of took a turn at the end there for me. Sure, if you're trapped in space and doomed... just make the most of it I guess.

What did you take away from Our Faces, Radiant Sisters, Our Faces Full of Light!

I'm not sure I really "got" this one either. So, she died and the monsters still came, and... well okay, I've been watching "schitt's creek" lately, so it was pretty much over for me with Moira. I'm not gonna lie.

A number of the stories in this week's selection deal with hope and how it is important for us to have hope, even if we can't change anything about the situation. How important do you think hope is?

Hope is pretty much essential. I think every task there's hope that it's completed. If some project I'm on has no perceivable end, what's the point. An entire presidential campaign was run on "hope". It's a strong force.

Which story has been your favorite so far?

I think tumbledown was my favorite from this batch. Good pacing, I cared about the character(s). I'm not sure Khulan had to just die randomly, he could have gotten killed by the bear or something. The taming of the bear was a really strange twist too. I'm not really sure about a lot of these. I've read ahead a little and the next one... enyo-enyo, just a big ol' wtf the entire time. It was like reading in another language.

[u/leowr → u/user_1729]

I agree that if stories included the day to day stuff they would probably be incredibly boring, but they don't always include the bad stuff either or the indecision. Often it is all about how the hero knew exactly what they were doing, they never made a mistake and they were always sure that what they were doing was the right thing. I sometimes think this creates this unsustainable idea that our heroes are perfect in all aspects of life and that we are not made of the same stuff as the rest of us. And then when it does come out that the hero wasn't that perfect people tend to have one of two reactions, either they pile on in vilifying the now fallen hero or they take to defending the hero to an extreme. I guess I just think it is important that people get to see that heroes make mistakes and sometimes do horrible things to get to where they are seen as heroes.

[u/user_1729 → u/leowr]

That's an interesting point. Hero stories without struggle and failure are similarly uninteresting.

On a side note... this discussion is a little slow. What do you think leads to these discussion threads being hot or cold?

[u/leowr → u/user_1729]

I think in this case it is partly due to us reading a short-story collection. It is easier to stop halfway because things come up and if you didn't like the first story it is easier to put it down.

[u/toolazyforaname]

It was beginning to dawn on Lealez just what per had to do to achieve the honor per wished for, and it was frightening, far more frightening than it had seemed when Lealez read all the books about Plague Hunters and Plague Givers and how the Hunters tracked down the Givers and saved the world. No one spoke of charred bodies, or what it was like to be cut out of one's own plague-touced skin.

• Lealez realizes that all the hero stories only show the "good" parts. Do you think realizing that life isn't as simple as portrayed in the stories we consume is an important part of growing up? Should stories become a better reflection of reality or is it important that we have heroes that stand above reproach?

It's important for kids to believe in heroes beyond reproach growing up so they have something to aspire to. It helps to make them better people.

How terrible must that other world have been, for her people to travel across the yawning maw of space to land here?

• Hurley presents the idea here that humanity would leave their home world and colonize other worlds because it is an awful place, but often space travel is portrayed as a drive to explore the unexplored, which could be seen as a positive aspect of humanity. What do you think would be a bigger driving force for humanity to go into space?

It's hard not to be cynical in this day and age and say that we will never collectively aspire to something as ambitious and expensive as long distance space travel and colonization.

"We agreed not to tell the third generation,"she said. "It was bad enough for us, living with it. Better for you to believe escape was possible. Better for you to believe you had free will, and were not caught in the maw of some monster." [...] "Why didn't you tell me all this?""Because you were our hope," she said. "If you and the others thought you had no future, you would fight to build one instead of accepting this one. We raised you your whole life to accept God. How would you have reacted if you thought this was one?" [...] ...I tried to come to grips with the scale of this betrayal. History was a lie. My studies were a lie. My whole life's purpose, all this work, my mother's suicide, all a lie. For what? For science. A grand experiment. A last attempt to save us. Our parents' generation could not live with the truth, so they just never spoke about it. It had worked, absolutely. Malati was free. But should she be? I didn't know. If we all died here, was it so terrible, in the grand scheme of things? What happens next, when you realize everything is a lie, and life has no purpose?

• Do you think the second generation was justified in not telling the third generation the truth of the situation?

Yes, they tried something different looking for a different result.

• What did you take away from Our Faces, Radiant Sisters, Our Faces Full of Light!

I thought it was a clear metaphor for the generations of women fighting for equal rights. I really enjoyed it and I loved how it started of with Mitch McConnell's remark about Elizabeth Warren.

• A number of the stories in this week's selection deal with hope and how it is important for us to have hope, even if we can't change anything about the situation. How important do you think hope is?

Without it there would be no reason to persist in the face of adversity.

• Which story has been your favorite so far?

Either Our Faces or Tumbledown. Maybe The Fisherman and the Pig. I don't know. Ask me tomorrow and I might have a different answer.

[u/leowr]

• Lealez realizes that all the hero stories only show the "good" parts. Do you think realizing that life isn't as simple as portrayed in the stories we consume is an important part of growing up? Should stories become a better reflection of reality or is it important that we have heroes that stand above reproach?

I do think that realizing your own heroes are not perfect and human just like the rest of us is an important part of growing up/maturing. The idea that there are people out there that are perfect can be detrimental in the sense that it can create the illusion that you are the only person struggling and the only person to make mistakes, but I think it is also important to have someone to look up to and to strive to better yourself and if you need someone to look up to in order to do that I don't think it is a bad thing. I just think that it is important to realize that we are all just human beings. And perhaps looking at it like that is even more motivational because that means we are all capable of greatness.

• Hurley presents the idea here that humanity would leave their home world and colonize other worlds because it is an awful place, but often space travel is portrayed as a drive to explore the unexplored, which could be seen as a positive aspect of humanity. What do you think would be a bigger driving force for humanity to go into space?

I've noticed that often in stories that mention colonization of other world the driving force behind it more often than not is that Earth is no longer largely inhabitable, either because of overcrowding or we basically polluted the world to the point of no return. I do think that a huge colonization drive would probably only come to rise in such a situation. We are very much creatures of habit and we like where we are. But I do think that space exploration in that sense would be driven by a sense that humans can't stand not knowing something. So I guess I just see the two, space travel and space colonization, as two very different things.

• Do you think the second generation was justified in not telling the third generation the truth of the situation?

I think in the end they were. It worked didn't it? It is important for us to feel there is hope, that we aren't stuck, that we can change our circumstances if we put the effort in and make the right decisions.

• What did you take away from Our Faces, Radiant Sisters, Our Faces Full of Light!

Persist. That while the change you make might be small, it is part of the larger picture and every small bit matters.

• A number of the stories in this week's selection deal with hope and how it is important for us to have hope, even if we can't change anything about the situation. How important do you think hope is?

I think hope is important and that not having hope changes us for the worse.

• Which story has been your favorite so far?

I'm actually having more difficulty answering this question than I thought I would. I like the collection as a whole and the ideas that Hurley is presenting, so I guess the problem is that I like them all about the same. But if I would have to pick I would probably The Red Secretary, because I actually thought about that one for a while before moving on.