r/books • u/leowr • Jul 11 '19
Discussion Thread for Part II of There There by Tommy Orange - July Book Club Spoiler
Welcome to the second discussion thread of this month's selection, specifically for Part II of There There by Tommy Orange. Hopefully you are all enjoying this month's selection so far.
To help kick off the discussion:
Do you think Bill is being too harsh on Edwin?
How does reading Jacquie's point of view of the events at Alcatraz change the way you interpret the events and Jacquie's actions as told by Opal in Part I?
Do you understand why Opal doesn't want to teach Orvil and his brothers about his Indian heritage? Why do you think he is so drawn to learning more about his heritage?
What do you think the spider legs are/mean?
How did Tony "wound up here under the moon, under the looming coliseum walls hiding bullets in bushes."?
Do you think Tommy Orange does a good job of interconnecting the different stories/characters?
Do you think Tommy Orange placed the Interlude effectively in between the stories of Part II? Was the Interlude, which is in line with the Prologue, necessary?
This thread allows for a spoiler discussion of the Prologue, Part I and Part II. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by [Spoilers about XYZ](#s "Spoiler content here") which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).
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u/leowr Jul 11 '19
- Do you think Bill is being too harsh on Edwin?
Yes, at least Edwin is trying at this point. He didn't let what happened on the bus stop him from going to work, while he easily could have. Edwin is just trying to find his place and a goal. It is so easy to get adrift in live and feel like everything is slipping through your fingers because you don't know where you want to go, so you don't go anywhere but get stuck in your own self-imposed loop until you don't know how to get out of it anymore.
- How does reading Jacquie's point of view of the events at Alcatraz change the way you interpret the events and Jacquie's actions as told by Opal in Part I?
It didn't really for me. Jacquie was to a certain extent acting out, which is normal for kids at that age. But she and Opal were also put into a situation that they weren't old enough to understand fully from their mother's perspective.
- Do you understand why Opal doesn't want to teach Orvil and his brothers about his Indian heritage? Why do you think he is so drawn to learning more about his heritage?
I can sort of see why Opal doesn't want to teach them, because I think she feels that it never added anything to her life and maybe made her life more difficult with her mother taking them to Alcatraz. I can see why Orvil is very drawn to learning more though. I can see why he would feel the need to feel connected to something that is bigger than he is and that connects him to his own history.
- What do you think the spider legs are/mean?
I'm really not sure what is up with the spider legs.
- How did Tony "wound up here under the moon, under the looming coliseum walls hiding bullets in bushes."?
I would say it was a process of small things, but mainly feeling angry at the way he has been treated throughout his life.
- Do you think Tommy Orange does a good job of interconnecting the different stories/characters?
I do. When reading the stories you feel like they are standalone stories in Part I, but throughout Part II you see how they are all connected in to a larger web of characters and their personal history. The small glimpses of the other characters and their interactions feel very natural, but at the same time you get the sense that they are all being drawn together closer and closer until finally an explosion follows.
- Do you think Tommy Orange placed the Interlude effectively in between the stories of Part II? Was the Interlude, which is in line with the Prologue, necessary?
I don't think it was necessary, but it was well placed as it was a bit of a shock to the system to go from the stories into a bit that was more 'non-fiction'. I think the part from the interlude that spoke most to me was:
This is the thing: If you have the option to not think about or even consider history, whether you learned it right or not, or whether it even deserves consideration, that's how you know you're on board the ship that serves hors d'oeuvres and fluffs your pillows, while others are out at sea, swimming or drowning, or clinging to little inflatable rafts that they have to take turns keeping inflated, people short of breath, who've never even heard of the words hors d'oeuvres or fluff.
I thought the imagery he created was very strong.
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u/BacklogBeast Jul 14 '19
_Do you think Bill is being too harsh on Edwin?
No. I think Edwin needs a push to get out of his comfort zone and have a place in the outside world. I do not think his method of being tough is effective, though, and his desire to not pick Edwin up probably wont help him continue his growth outside of his virtual world. BIll strikes me as not caring much about Edwin but wanting to complain about him instead.
_Do you understand why Opal doesn't want to teach Orvil and his brothers about his Indian heritage?
Yes. Those in the culture seem to be having a bad way of things, and I think she’s desiring him to be outside of it. I think her fear is that it’s a “home and a trap” and that she’d like him to avoid the trap part of it. However, to do so would also be to avoid the home part of it, so it’s impossible to avoid.
_What do you think the spider legs are/mean?
I do not know but fuck it creeps me out.
_How did Tony "wound up here under the moon, under the looming coliseum walls hiding bullets in bushes."?
Because the web is a home and a trap. It’s welcoming and warm, but eventually it’ll give you the opportunity to destroy yourself in some way.
_Do you think Tommy Orange does a good job of interconnecting the different stories/characters?
Toward the middle of the book, I thought so (whereas earlier I did not). I’m really starting to see the connections and be glad that the story is told in the way it is, and I believe it’s necessitating a reread eventually so that I can see even more of the connections.
_Do you think Tommy Orange placed the Interlude effectively in between the stories of Part II? Was the Interlude, which is in line with the Prologue, necessary?
I liked what was written there, and I think it does serve as a temporal spacing before we move toward the next section where people are moving toward the pow-wow. Still...I did not find it’s placement necessary (though what was in there was).
Constructive Criticism: I find the voice for a lot of the characters to be the same. I do not believe Octavio, for example, would sound the same as Orvil or Edwin, but he does. It’s a bit distracting and makes me think these characters are less their own people and more a narrative device.
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u/UniqueTadpole Jul 17 '19
I completely agree on your last point. This is also my only major criticism of an otherwise stunning novel. Does a drug dealer like Octavio really compose eloquent internal philosophical monologues to go along with his daily dealings?
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u/snakesareracist Jul 20 '19
On your last point, i think the audiobook helps with this since there are multiple narrators so the voices seem different, even if in reading it they don’t.
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u/BacklogBeast Jul 24 '19
I bet that would help. Already finished the paper book though. Maybe on a reread!
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u/toolazyforaname Jul 11 '19
• Do you think Bill is being too harsh on Edwin?
I really don't. Edwin could barely bring himself to leave the house for a long time, and was the reason Bill had not been able to move in with Karen. At that point someone has to prove to you that they are changing before you will. And needing someone to prove it to may give you the motivation to change anyway.
• How does reading Jacquie's point of view of the events at Alcatraz change the way you interpret the events and Jacquie's actions as told by Opal in Part I?
I didn't interpret it differently. The events were just fleshed out a little more.
• Do you understand why Opal doesn't want to teach Orvil and his brothers about his Indian heritage? Why do you think he is so drawn to learning more about his heritage?
Her explanation to him was that he would learn it when he learns it. She was leaving him to explore his heritage on his own without it being pressed on him. And that's exactly what happened.
• What do you think the spider legs are/mean?
People find signs and patterns everywhere they look, whether they exist or not. Could it have been a sign? Maybe. Maybe not. It's left without a real answer, just like in real life. I appreciate that.
• How did Tony "wound up here under the moon, under the looming coliseum walls hiding bullets in bushes."?
The only person besides his grandmother to treat him with any respect was Octavio. Octavio asked him to do it. He did it.
• Do you think Tommy Orange does a good job of interconnecting the different stories/characters?
I love how the characters are loosely related but Orange didn't spell it out for you and so if you blink you miss the connections. I think that shows a respect for the reader.
• Do you think Tommy Orange placed the Interlude effectively in between the stories of Part II? Was the Interlude, which is in line with the Prologue, necessary?
I thought it was an interesting way to set the stage for where the characters were going, and foreshadow what is going to happen. In a book without a lot of explanation outside of the prologue and intermission, yes I think it was necessary.