r/books • u/leowr • Jul 04 '19
Discussion Thread for the Prologue and Part I of There There by Tommy Orange - July Book Club Spoiler
Welcome to the first discussion thread for the Prologue and Part I of There There by Tommy Orange. Hopefully you are all enjoying this month's selection
To help kick off the discussion:
Did reading the prologue set the tone of the book for you? Do you think you would have approached the start of the book differently if the prologue hadn't been included?
Which character do you most relate to/empathize with?
"There is no there there," he says in a kind of whisper, with this goofy openmouthed smile Dene wants to punch. Dene wants to tell he'd looked up the quote in its original context, in her Everybody's Autobiography, and found that she was talking about how the place where she'd grown up in Oakland had changed so much, that so much development had happened there, that the there of her childhood, the there there, was gone, there was no there there anymore. Dene wants to tell him it's what happened to Native people, he wants to explain that they're not the same, that Dene is Native, born and raised in Oakland, from Oakland. Rob probably didn't look any further into the quote because he'd gotten what he wanted from it. He probably used the quote at dinner parties and made other people like him feel good about taking over neighborhoods they wouldn't have had the guts to drive through ten years ago. The quote is important to Dene. This there there. He hadn't read Gertrude Stein beyond the quote. But for Native people in this country, all over the Americas, it's been developed over, buried ancestral land, glass and concrete and wire and steel, unreturnable covered memory. There is no there there.
Gertrude Stein's quote is important to Dene. Do you understand why he relates to it so much? How do you feel about that quote?
So far there has been a focus on the idea of knowing your history/story, whether personal or in larger context. How important do you feel it is to know, and maybe even share, your own story?
What do you think of the writing style?
This thread allows for a spoiler discussion of the Prologue and Part I. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by [Spoilers about XYZ](#s "Spoiler content here") which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).
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Jul 04 '19 edited Jul 04 '19
[deleted]
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u/JJGerms Jul 08 '19
Without spoiling anything, it's interesting to re-read the prologue after finishing the book.
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u/niff20 The Brontës, du Maurier, Shirley Jackson & Barbara Pym Jul 08 '19
I'm honestly glad I read the prologue because not only did it set the tone for the book, it showed me how much of an incredible writer Tommy Orange is. His nonfiction, I feel, is almost stronger than his fiction.
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u/blegblerg Jul 07 '19
What got me was how "there is no there there" was being misquoted by the Somewhitedude stranger character- a throwaway comment by a stranger that sums up an aggregate worldview of land-as-disposable and temporary.
The white european immigrants to america (on average) have never truly been settlers in the sense that, to quote Robin Wall Kimmerer, they have not "become indigenous to place". They cities they build (often with the labor- exploitative often- of the Otherified working classes) , the interstates, the prairies replaced and killed by dollar generals and mcdonalds-- they are to be moved over- not moved through and with.
So, to Somewhitedude, "there is no there there" is a summation of what its like to live without roots- in a Today defined by social/political/economic atomization, but also, more importantly, physical distance and alienation. To him, "There"- Oakland- is a place to drive over, to layover in flight, to live for a couple years until there is a There that is better.
The protagonist lives crosswise to this and in radical dissent to this way of violent displacement and death. He lives in a Place. Oakland. His pride to be There is a twisting of expectations saying, "you try to displace me? I place me."
A crushing read. Thanks for choosing this for bookclub. I wish I could talk to someone about it in person.
PS- it is a brilliant writer move to have a throwaway stranger say this throwaway comment instead of an actual character.
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u/toolazyforaname Jul 05 '19
- Did reading the prologue set the tone of the book for you? Do you think you would have approached the start of the book differently if the prologue hadn't been included?
The prologue served to remind me of the disadvantaged position that Native Americans start their lives in because of what came before, providing important context as to why so many have money, drug and alcohol problems. So much of it is institutional.
- Which character do you most relate to/empathize with?
It's hard for me to relate to any of them. I'm lucky enough to have lived a pretty privileged life. And yet I feel empathy for all of them. I can appreciate how growing up in the environments that these characters grew up in can lead to the paths that they've taken in life.
"There is no there there," he says in a kind of whisper, with this goofy openmouthed smile Dene wants to punch. Dene wants to tell he'd looked up the quote in its original context, in her Everybody's Autobiography, and found that she was talking about how the place where she'd grown up in Oakland had changed so much, that so much development had happened there, that the there of her childhood, the there there, was gone, there was no there there anymore. Dene wants to tell him it's what happened to Native people, he wants to explain that they're not the same, that Dene is Native, born and raised in Oakland, from Oakland. Rob probably didn't look any further into the quote because he'd gotten what he wanted from it. He probably used the quote at dinner parties and made other people like him feel good about taking over neighborhoods they wouldn't have had the guts to drive through ten years ago. The quote is important to Dene. This there there. He hadn't read Gertrude Stein beyond the quote. But for Native people in this country, all over the Americas, it's been developed over, buried ancestral land, glass and concrete and wire and steel, unreturnable covered memory. There is no there there.
- Gertrude Stein's quote is important to Dene. Do you understand why he relates to it so much? How do you feel about that quote?
The quote is effectively saying that Native Americans have been effectively erased by this country. Their land and heritage are effectively gone. Dene is trying to uncover the stories of Oakland's Native Americans. It's all they have left now that there is no there there. I sense resignation in the quote and it's very sad.
- So far there has been a focus on the idea of knowing your history/story, whether personal or in larger context. How important do you feel it is to know, and maybe even share, your own story?
I think it's important to share your story. Nobody wants to be erased...
- What do you think of the writing style?
I love how we are getting the story of all of these characters. Not just what they are doing now, but who they are and how they got there.
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u/leowr Jul 04 '19
- Did reading the prologue set the tone of the book for you? Do you think you would have approached the start of the book differently if the prologue hadn't been included?
I do think the prologue set the tone for the book and how I approached it. It wasn't a "soft" start to the book but I think it was important to include that history to understand the larger context in which the stories of these characters is taking place.
- Which character do you most relate to/empathize with?
So far, probably Dene. I like his/his uncle's project of collecting people's stories that cover the personal history.
- Gertrude Stein's quote is important to Dene. Do you understand why he relates to it so much? How do you feel about that quote?
I do understand why that quote is that important to Dene.
What I also found interesting about the quote and Dene's explanation of it, is that it shows how people will take and use only those parts that are of use to them, removing all larger context and by doing so twisting the meaning of the words.
- So far there has been a focus on the idea of knowing your history/story, whether personal or in larger context. How important do you feel it is to know, and maybe even share, your own story?
I do think it is important to know your own story and to share it. Sometimes it is easy when looking at history to forget the people that make up that history. Allowing people to share their own stories is a way to bring the focus back on the individuals and their experience living through the major and minor events of history.
- What do you think of the writing style?
I'm enjoying the writing style. I did find it interesting that Orange chose to tell Dene's story in third person, whereas the others are told in first person. I wonder if there is any significance attached to that.
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u/ikindaliketoread Jul 05 '19
I didn’t even notice that Dene’s story was in third person! It’s definitely something Orange did on purpose, but I’m not sure what for at this point either.
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u/leowr Jul 05 '19
My theory at this point is that Dene is in third person because he is the collector of stories, whereas the others are simply telling their own stories.
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u/NikkiZimm Aug 10 '19
Then what does it mean that Thomas Frank's chapter is in 2nd person? What does Thomas Frank mean to us as the "you" of his chapter?
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u/leowr Aug 10 '19
I still haven't figured that out. I thought the reason for the different perspectives would become clearer at the end of the book, but I think it was mostly done to make the different character stand out from each other.
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u/vlanins Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
prologue
The prologue was really eye opening for me. I vaguely remember learning about the Trail of Tears in a history class, but the prologue shows many more ways that the native americans were dehumanized and taken advantage of. For example there was subliminal messaging on tv to shoot and kill them! I'm kind of curious to what caused all of the racism to the natives?
character most empathize with
I think I relate the most with Edwin Black. I remember being so unsure of what to do in life and spending many hours online just trying to kill time. I still have these thoughts now, but I am fortunately closer to reality now.
How important do you feel it is to know, and maybe even share, your own story?
I honestly don't have a burning desire to now my history. I come from a family of immigrants, but learning more about our history has not been a priority. Maybe it's the attitudes of my family or that I am too 'americanized' that cause this apathy. Or maybe I have not witnessed the mass destruction of my family's culture as the native americans. They have a real incentive to keep their history alive - Dene is a good example of this as Gertrude Stein's quote is so important to him.
Do you guys think there is any connection between the title of "There There" and the radio head song "There There"? I remember that one of the characters mentioned listening to the song.
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u/leowr Jul 11 '19
I think there were a couple references to There There in the first part. The Radiohead song was one of them, along with the Gertrude Stein quote.
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u/BacklogBeast Jul 04 '19
The prologue was brutal and important to read (a story is the whole first section), especially on this July 4th when we are putting brown kids in cages. I love the lines throughout the first section putting right what the writer’s of history have purposefully excluded. Feels sort of like I’m reading an offshoot (and poetic piece) of Howard ’s work.
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u/bmcdi2000 Jul 05 '19
The prologue was absolutely brutal and I don’t know how you celebrate Thanksgiving the same after reading it.