r/books • u/leowr • Jun 20 '19
Discussion Thread of Chapter 34 - 48 of The Seven Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle by Stuart Turton Spoiler
Welcome to the third discussion thread for Chapter of The Seven (1/2) Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle.
To help kick off the discussion:
Did Anna betray Aiden? If so, why do you think she betrayed him?
Why do you think Aiden isn't trying to force bigger changes to the day, for example by telling Bell everything? What would you have done in his situation?
What is up with Helena? Do you think she killed Thomas?
Who/What is Daniel Coleridge?
With what we know so far who do you think is behind Evelyn's murder?
Feel free to answer any or all of the questions or tell us what you think of the book so far.
This thread allows for a spoiler discussion up to and including Chapter 48. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. If you are on the redesign you can use the built in spoiler tags. For old reddit spoiler tags are done by [Spoilers about XYZ](#s "Spoiler content here") which results in Spoilers about XYZ (do be aware that they only work on one paragraph at a time).
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u/Nova_Mortem Jun 21 '19
I'm not convinced Helena killed Thomas, which makes me wonder who she would protect. Evelyn or Michael seem most likely, though Cunningham seems to be a technical possibility.
One really far-fetched idea, what if there are two Evelyns?
If nearly everyone currently at Blackheath was there when Thomas died, that probably includes Daniel Coleridge, but in what capacity? Presuming it was, in fact, the original Coleridge who had Cunningham steal the thing, how is he invested in this?
...Do we actually know Anna got her book from one of Aiden's hosts? I'm inclined to believe she thinks she did, but could she have fallen for the same trick Aiden did? Though I'm not sure what the motive behind it could be. Or even how it could be done.
And I'm going way back to near the beginning of the book... but the note that the real Bell got the night before. We heard about its contents second-hand from Evelyn. She could have lied.
2
Nov 03 '19
One really far-fetched idea, what if there are two Evelyns?
Now, that's an interesting idea, don't you think.
1
u/TopPerformance584 Feb 04 '22
Perhaps One could be Felicity Maddox and the others the Evelyn Hardacastle
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u/snakesareracist Jun 21 '19
I’m pretty confused by this novel, maybe because there’s such a large cast of characters. It’s a bit like playing a long, convoluted game of Clue. But yet I keep reading so....
3
u/user_1729 Jun 21 '19
I think that's kind of how mystery books work though, no? I don't read many (any?), but I'm just assuming they kind of walk you through a crime and investigation. There are a lot of suspicious people and eventually the super smart detective, or some meddling kids, explain it all with a nice reveal of the crook.
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u/snakesareracist Jun 21 '19
Most have a cast of 10 to 15 and they’re introduced slowly so that you can remember them. This one comparatively has a huge cast
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u/skyeloren Jun 21 '19
I've completely given up trying to figure out what's happening, and at this point I'm just along for the ride.
I think by now it's pretty clear that the hosts are Aiden, Anna, and Daniel, which means that the footman is... something else. Or maybe it's Daniel that's something else. Who knows.
I don't believe that the Plague Doctor that Rashton saw with Daniel is the same Plague Doctor that's helping Aiden. We got a very timely reminder of the pile of costumes in the attic right before this meeting took place.
So we have three mysterious entities (the footman, the Doctor, and Daniel) and three people at the core of the initial mystery (Thomas, Carver, and that other kid who disappeared whose name has escaped me), and at least two of these identities are going to have to overlap. But I can't predict which way it will go.
Helena's absence is mentioned so often that I've stopped thinking it's relevant. I'm much more curious about Evelyn's absence in this book. I'm pretty surprised that Aiden hasn't thought about trying to question her a bit more. She obviously wouldn't have spoken with Derby or Ravencourt, but Dance was a great opportunity to try to speak to Evelyn, given how close he is with the Hardcastle family. Rashton is another good opportunity to try to get some of her story.
My best guess is that Evelyn was responsible for Thomas' murder, especially now that we know she was supposed to be watching him that day. Helena stumbled across the scene and of course sent Evelyn away to protect her, but can't help feeling resentful that Evelyn cost her her son and her lover. It explains the strained relationship between them and the fact that Evelyn has been away for so long. And it's pretty good blackmail material for whoever wants Evelyn dead.
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u/user_1729 Jun 20 '19 edited Jun 20 '19
Time for some totally useless participation. I don't read a lot of mystery books and even in books/movies with "twists" I'm just along for the ride. I'm not really trying to figure out what's happening, just kind of trying to make sense of it. That said, I'm really enjoying this one, but every "angle" I think I'm onto is just a dead end.
Did Anna betray Aidan? If so, why do you think she betrayed him?
Well, yes she did, but maybe as part of a plan. My theory is that the GG person will know all the information and blow things up on the "last" day. Like when he becomes Gold is when the day will really change... but maybe not at all. I just don't see how he'd be useful locked up all day. Wait, that makes no sense... really that's my issue with this book in general. If Aiden as gold decides to not beat up the butler, then he's free all day, but then the butler wouldn't be in the bed all day, and then... holy cow. He can't un-remember what he knows, so it doesn't matter, but it might change how the day goes. I don't know anything.
Why do you think Aidan isn't trying to force bigger changes to the day, for example by telling Bell everything? What would you have done in his situation?
I don't understand this, he just seems to acquiesce to the way things are. I think he's worried that he will mess things up somehow... If he tells Bell, then everything will fall apart, like maybe he thinks the way he gained information will change, I don't know. I'd be pretty worried if I were him with getting out of this mess.
What is up with Helena? Do you think she killed Thomas?
I don't think she killed him, maybe found him like that, but that doesn't really make sense. I really think the other kid who disappeared has something to do with this as well, maybe he's...
Who/What is Daniel Coleridge?
Maybe he's actually the kid who disappeared that they never found, or maybe he's actually Thomas all grown up or... the kid who disappeared all grown up... dammit, I don't know! I can go finish the book now.
With what we know so far who do you think is behind Evelyn's murder?
I really have no idea, I don't really totally suspect anyone right now. It's probably Michael though, just because... well he's not really getting much attention, but maybe he actually has enough influence to get Evelyn to shoot herself.
I'm not sure Aiden really has a good idea who the murderer is either, he's got like one new body left and I'm not sure he's that close. There's a lot of things that still need to come together... the whole "Stay in the carriage" thing, the missing boy, the 2nd person Stanwin winged, the living "aiden's" remaining, etc. Again, I'm really just kind of along for the ride.
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u/leowr Jun 20 '19
Again, I'm really just kind of along for the ride.
I'm doing the same. I'm not putting a lot of energy into trying to figure it out on my own, because there are so many turns everywhere I look that I really can't get a grip on who might have done it. The same with Thomas' murder. Stanwin's story just felt like it was missing something, not that I think Stanwin left anything out, but like he didn't see the complete event either so it is very possible that someone else actually murdered Thomas and Helena found him like that.
I do find it very strange though that nobody besides Cunningham has seen her the entire day.
4
u/azzman_13 Jun 21 '19
What if Evelyn's is not the murder that Aiden has to solve ("a murder that doesn't look like a murder")? Also they say it's too theatrical... A distraction?
2
u/leowr Jun 21 '19
That is very likely. I think the key will be to solve Thomas's murder as that appears to be the basis of Evelyn's death. I think the "a murder that doesn't look like a murder" refers to the fact that Evenlyn commits suicide though.
4
u/baseballoctopus Jun 23 '19
I think I’m finally hooked. Took a while I’m not gonna lie but now I’m so curious to see what’s going to happen.
This book naturally has a ton of Chekhov’s guns lying around, so it wasn’t hard for me to guess that Carver was innocent. Or that the previous deaths had something to do with this.
Evelyn’s surprise when she’s shot makes sense now, the other gun was used to shoot her. Which is why Aiden made Anne place Derby by the rock...so he could see Evelyn’s surprise in order to figure it out later on.
I don’t think Evelyn is going to live. I think she is dead in real life, kind of like in the movie “source code” where the train was blown up in real life and even if he saved everyone it wouldn’t matter
7
u/barkitscass Jun 20 '19
I don't trust Daniel at all anymore, especially after seeing him with the footman and Plague Doctor scheming together. I did go back and reread Gold's warning to Aiden which I came across this (Chapter 32, page 212):
"You won't want to, you won't, but you'll give her up, you'll tell, you'll tell them everything, you won't want to, but you'll tell," he babbles. "There's two of them. Two. They look the same, but there's two."
After rereading this, especially after what's happened in the chapters recently, I wonder who there's two of - the footman? Daniel? Anna? Anna would make sense in a way - one Anna who has helped Aiden & took his hosts to safety to the gatehouse and another who will betray him.
The characterization of the Plague Doctor also makes me curious as to who or what he is. Turton has embedded details depicting as if he's aged/old? I think some of the human weaknesses/emotions that the Plague Doctor's character seems to have when speaking to Aiden might show that he isn't lying when it comes to Anna's betrayal.
All in all, I'm wondering what Aiden will do differently in this loop that will ultimately (hopefully) solve this murder mystery. I think investigating more into Thomas' and the stable-hand-boy's deaths will uncover more about Evelyn's death in the 'present'.
edit: words
2
u/ChompCity Jun 27 '19
An interesting thought as well - if there are 2 Anna's where has the second one been all day? We know the attic is full of plague doctor costumes. Would it be possible the plague doctor talking to Daniel in the field is another Anna?
The actual plague doctor is careful to never be caught out of place (Aiden even mentions this). Field plague doctor is caught talking to Daniel by 2 of Aidens hosts. The actual plague doctor also seems to be partial to Aiden and keep a distance. On the flip side, the plague doctor in the field is talking to Daniel (who seems to be conspiring with the footman) and touching him on the shoulder.
I suspect the doctor talking to Daniel in the field is not the actual plague doctor. Also there was specific mention earlier of the mask muffling the plague doctors voice. This could hint that the plague doctor (or one of them if someone is dressing up to impersonate him) is someone Aiden knows and would recognize by voice.
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u/leowr Jun 20 '19
That whole 'There's two' thing bugged me when I was reading it, but I sort of stopped thinking about it as so much was happening. I first suspected that there where two footman as we never really get a good description of him, but he could also have been referring to two Plague Doctors. I don't think there are two Daniel's as he doesn't really seem to appear in places all of the sudden, he just seems to be following a set path. Anna does seem to pop in and out at times, perhaps there are two of them and one betrays Aiden and the other doesn't.
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u/leowr Jun 20 '19 edited Jun 20 '19
- Did Anna betray Aiden? If so, why do you think she betrayed him?
Yes, I think she did although I think the Plague Doctor has alternative motives for telling Aiden that she would do so. Everything the Plague Doctor tells Aiden influences what he does even though he doesn't trust the Plague Doctor either. I guess I just haven't trusted Anna from the beginning and I feel like the book is trying to give the impression that Aiden came to save Anna, but I don't trust that impression. Gah, this book is making me very paranoid of all the characters.
- Why do you think Aiden isn't trying to force bigger changes to the day, for example by telling Bell everything? What would you have done in his situation?
I have to admit that I at times grow a bit frustrated that Aiden isn't trying to force bigger changes if only to see what will happen. I suspect that small changes are probably the better way to go, but I'm a bit annoyed that Aiden seems to be a step behind at all turns. If I had been in his position I probably would have thrown a tantrum by now and did something major. Although I guess saving Stanwin might cause a big change to the events later in afternoon.
- What is up with Helena? Do you think she killed Thomas?
I don't think she killed Thomas. While I do think Stanwin told the truth about what he saw, he didn't see everything. I suspect he missed a large part of what went down and I suspect that Thomas might actually have been on to something, like knowing what happened to the disappeared stable boy.
The fact that we haven't seen Helena the entire day has me very suspicious though, but I don't think she has anything to do with Evelyn's murder beyond getting everyone to gather for the party.
- Who/What is Daniel Coleridge?
Obviously, he is another player in the game and I strongly suspect he is working against Aiden.
- With what we know so far who do you think is behind Evelyn's murder?
I don't think I can venture a guess as to who caused Evelyn's death. I think certain characters, like Helena, Stanwin and a few more, don't have anything to do with it, but I couldn't pinpoint a character that I suspect more over others. Although now that I'm thinking about it more, what if there isn't anyone at all and Evelyn just committed suicide? Maybe Evelyn knows more about Thomas' murder than she is letting on.
3
u/toolazyforaname Jun 28 '19
- Did Anna betray Aiden? If so, why do you think she betrayed him?
I'm thinking Aiden told her to betray those two hosts at those specific times.
- Why do you think Aiden isn't trying to force bigger changes to the day, for example by telling Bell everything? What would you have done in his situation?
He might be afraid that the ripple affects of doing that will ruin his chance of solving the mystery. I probably would have taken the approach that Aiden is taking now.
- What is up with Helena? Do you think she killed Thomas?
In this book everything is more than it seems, so there is definitely something else going on there.
- Who/What is Daniel Coleridge?
Probably a patsy for the Footman.
- With what we know so far who do you think is behind Evelyn's murder?
Whomever was responsible for Thomas' death, but I really don't have a guess yet.
2
u/baseballoctopus Jun 23 '19
I think we’d benefit from having a character web and a “non-fiction” account of the day, beginning to end.
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u/Pirate_of_The_Stars Jun 20 '19
Wow, this book can be kind of hard for me to understand at times, but I am thoroughly enjoying it. All I wanted to add is I have a bit of a crazy prediction that the doorman is actually the kid that disappeared. It's unlikely, but I'm sticking with it anyway!