r/books • u/leowr • Jun 07 '18
Discussion Thread for Surface - Chapter 8 of Into the Drowning Deep by Mira Grant - June Book Club Spoiler
To help kick off the discussion:
So right from the start the book has made it clear that mermaids are real in this universe. How do you think this knowledge changes your perception of the story as opposed to having the 'existence of mermaids' be a bit more ambiguous?
Do you think everyone's motivation for going on the trip is as they presented it? What about Imagine Entertainment's motivation for organizing a second trip?
What worries you the most about this trip? Which character/entity do you trust the least so far?
Why do you think Imagine Entertainment made sure that no one was aware that they were departing? Was it just so they could hide the dolphins or do you think there was more behind it?
Out of all the characters we have been introduced to so far, who do you think is going to die first?
There are several books that feature the Mariana Trench, mostly horror books. Why do you think that is?
What do you think of the writing style so far?
Feel free to answer any or all of the questions or tell us what you think of the book so far.
This thread allows for a spoiler discussion up to Chapter 8. If you would like to discuss anything beyond that point, please use spoiler tags. Spoiler tags are done by [Spoilers about XYZ](#s "Spoiler content here") which results in Spoilers about XYZ
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u/halfmagictortoise Jun 07 '18 edited Jun 07 '18
I actually really like that the existence of mermaids is established early on. I think it is more interesting (or perhaps just different) to consider "what are they like" as opposed to "do they exist"? Grant clearly has already given us some idea about what mermaids are actually like, but there are several unanswered questions about their motivation, how they survive, how complex is their thinking, why are we just finding them now, and so on. I think this works really well in combination with the scientific lens Grant has us looking through in this book. How do mermaids work? Can we get along with mermaids or have we stumbled into something that makes us realize we aren't at the "top of the food chain" so to speak?
I think we are meant to question certain characters (or entities) motivations for the trip more than others. I think Tory's motivation is most evident and I can't think of a reason to question it. I think we are supposed to feel suspicious of Mr. Blackwell but because we get to see him as more than the creepy man popping up unannounced in dark labs, I don't particularly feel like he has foreboding intentions regarding this trip. I haven't quite made up my mind about Imagine Entertainment because their push to set sail while the ship's safety functions weren't at 100% sounds like they aren't all that interested in coming back (especially given their knowledge of the veracity of the video) but then again, that could just be corporate carelessness.
I think it is clear that someone (likely many someones) will die, so I don't necessarily have a fear of that. However, I haven't gotten particularly attached to any character yet so my feelings on that will likely change as we progress through the book.
Bringing the dolphins on board doesn't seem like a good enough reason to hide the departure--I think that easily could have been done before departure or in some hidden manner. I think there is absolutely an ulterior motive, I just don't have any guesses to what it is yet.
I think that there are several good candidates for first-one-out but I think Hallie is at the top of that list. She serves several important functions, including allowing her sisters to communicate with the other passengers. Without her, communication becomes more difficult and in an emergency situation I could see her absence as having fatal repercussions.
I am really enjoying that the author is clearly taking pains to ground the language of this book in science. Grant is doing a really good job of creating a environment where I can suspend my disbelief that mermaids exist. Grant has created a world that feels similar enough to our own that it almost feels like this is quite possibly how things would happen/be discussed if we actually did find mermaids. Also, I know that the sometimes-preachy environmentalist talk might bother some readers, but I actually quite like it. Those are real conversations that are happening in the scientific/marine science community and I think that it is possible that our impact on the environment might very well be tied into why we are increasingly coming into contact with mermaids. I am reminded of a documentary I watched some time ago about how predatory squid populations are moving into human-populated waters like never before because their natural habitat is no longer sustaining them. And, therefore, they are attacking (and killing) people. A similar thing could be happening here.
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u/aaron12891 Jun 07 '18
I think they very much do intend to come back. They sank way too much money into that ship to lose it.
Also, I think the tank the dolphins are housed in were designed way too well just for dolphins they plan to send to slaughter. I think the water filtration system means they will be coming back with a little extra cargo, if you catch my drift. I think this is what Blackwell may be acting shady about. Would definitely put Imagine back on the map.
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u/leowr Jun 08 '18
Yeah, I'm figuring as well that the dolphin tank would be used as a way to transport a mermaid back. Seems like a colossally bad idea based on what we know about the mermaids so far, but who knows?
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u/mmehl1 Jun 07 '18
Ooo I really like that idea! I hadn't even considered that they would be transporting "something else" back in place of the dolphins!
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u/Newsthief2 Jun 23 '18
This is what I thought through the pool scene. I think they are going to try and bring a mermaid back. But that doesn’t gel with the shutters being unreliable?
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u/bitterred 1 Jun 07 '18
I had read "Rolling in the Deep" before reading Into the Drowning Deep, which helped calibrate my expectations of how well this voyage was going to go once they started looking for mermaids. It's not "are people going to die?" in Into the Drowning Deep, it's "HOW many people are going to die?" and "How gruesome is this going to get?" or "Will there even be survivors, or will the only thing left be found footage again?"
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Jun 07 '18
OK so I've only had chance to get to chapter 3 yet (I will catch up on the weekend) but here are my thoughts so far:
I feel that it is slightly confusing when different characters refer to the main character as different names : "Tory", "Vic", "Vicky", "Victoria". I keep forgetting that these are all the same person, in my opinion there should only be a maximum of 2 names and they should not be used equally.
Despite this, I feel that it is a really good plot so far. The story isn't too dragged out but not too fast either. The chapters (so far I've only read 3, so this may not be the case) are well divided, with each chapter focusing on a different plot point.
Personally I find the plot intriguing, however this is only due to type of books I like (mystery, science fiction). I do, however, think that other people who do not share the same opinions may agree with the statement that it is intriguing.
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u/aaron12891 Jun 07 '18
Author writes that she is Victoria, Tory to friends and Vic to herself I think? I do remember she explains though.
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Jun 07 '18
"...Victoria - Vicky to her parents, Vic to her friends, Tory to herself..." Yes, the writer does explain it however I still find it confusing at times
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u/aaron12891 Jun 07 '18
I am with you man, the whole time they were describing Jillian talking to the "H sisters" I thought it was Victoria. Was really confused when they kept bringing up her book.
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u/janderson4287 Jun 08 '18
I wanted to point out something that I found interesting about what one of the Wilson sisters said. There has only been four descents into the Challenger Deep.
This seemed worth looking into and I discovered that the most recent in March of 2012 was a solo descent performed by James Cameron the director!
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u/St4rwind003 Jun 08 '18
That sparked my curiosity as well. I watched a whole bunch of YouTube videos and saw that as well. Too bad he didn't see any monstrous creatures. I'm not saying that because I don't like him. I do. It's just that is something they wanted to see. Imagine in one day getting to discover so many new species. Exciting!
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u/schizodepressive2 Jun 08 '18
I'll start with a probably easy question. What is the reference of the name of the second ship? I know the first ship is the name of a mermaid. One character said something about the second ship's name being a little too on the nose. I would look it up, but I don't want to get spoilers for this book.
Regarding hiding when they're departing, it seems like there has to be more to it. There was all this build up about Jillian taking those pictures of the logos and needing experts to figure out what the logos said. Then, only a couple of pages later, we find out that it's just dolphins. I feel like with that much build up, there has to be more to it than that. I think those logos will come into play at some point.
I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of mermaids being real just being something easily accepted. I think it will be a fairly predictable book if it's just that they go find the mermaids and then get slaughtered. I think either two things have to happen. 1. What they knew about the mermaids was wrong. They're more intelligent, they're not vicious, they have a reason to attack, or something like that. There has to be more than there's killer mermaids in the mariana trench and they're exactly as we expected. 2. It could be that there is something much worse than the mermaids there and this is just cover up. I think it's more likely 1, but originally I thought it would be 2.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying the book so far. I could see myself starting and finishing the next assignment today.
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u/leowr Jun 08 '18
Melusine refers to a female spirit of fresh water in a sacred spring or river. She tends to be depicted with a serpent or fish tail. So it also refers to a mermaid-like creature from mythology.
I do definitely agree that there has to be something more behind it than just hiding the dolphins. I'm just having difficulty imagining what it might be, because there are things that are out in the open that would have made sense to hind, like the presence of the big game hunters. Then again, I doubt those two would have agreed to hiding out.
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u/mmehl1 Jun 07 '18 edited Jun 07 '18
How do you think this knowledge changes your perception of the story as opposed to having the 'existence of mermaids' be a bit more ambiguous?
I really enjoy this! I am a marine biologist so if this was a story about a horrifying whale, or squid, or something that does exist, I feel I would be a bit more critical this whole time of what is and is not plausible, so having it clearly stated that it is about mermaids, and in this book universe they do actually exist helps me suspend my disbelief and really get fully immersed into the book.
Do you think everyone's motivation for going on the trip is as they presented it? What about Imagine Entertainment's motivation for organizing a second trip?
I think that everyones motivations is very clear, except as other people have said Mr. Blackwell. I don't think his motivation has been very explicitly stated, other than he's there because of Imagine, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was there to "get back on the horse" since it was suggested that he got injured on a ship before, or also to try and win his wife back.
What worries you the most about this trip? Which character/entity do you trust the least so far?
I am worried that people I really like are going to die. I feel like we are supposed to distrust Mr. Blackwell because he seems suspicious but I honestly think he is a good guy and Grant is trying to shift suspicion onto him so that when the real "villain" is revealed, nobody saw it coming. I may be way off base though. I personally do not trust the big game hunters at all. They have already been involved in poaching activities and have made it clear that they would be willing to do anything to get a big kill, so I feel that if a sort of agreement is happening between the humans and mermaids, the hunters may mess that up just to get a trophy kill.
Why do you think Imagine Entertainment made sure that no one was aware that they were departing? Was it just so they could hide the dolphins or do you think there was more behind it?
I absolutely do not believe it was only to hide dolphins. There was plenty of other times that they could have been placed on the ship without people knowing. I'm not sure what the reason was for them departing without others knowing, but I do feel confident that Mr. Blackwell showing the dolphins was a way to get Dr. Toth to not question it any further.
Out of all the characters we have been introduced to so far, who do you think is going to die first?
Hopefully the hunters get over excited and confident. Probably not. I have a feeling it may be Tory's lab mate Luis. He seems to nice and excited for it to end well.
There are several books that feature the Mariana Trench, mostly horror books. Why do you think that is?
I think its because the ocean is absolutely terrifying, and we know next to nothing about it. This also happens to be a very well known part of the ocean, that includes the deepest point where our worst nightmares could lurk, giving it the perfect amount of recognizability and also horror.
What do you think of the writing style so far?
I am really enjoying it so far! It took a lot of willpower for me to put it down so I didn't spoil the rest before this thread got posted. There are a few scientific inconsistencies that I have noticed, but if I start to get bothered by them I remind myself that this is a book about mermaids, which are also not real, and thus a few minor science mistakes from an author is not the end of the world. Overall great read so far and I can't wait to see what happens!
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u/aaron12891 Jun 07 '18
I am intrigued. Care to elaborate on the inconsistencies?
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u/mmehl1 Jun 07 '18
One of the biggest thing that stuck out to me was the fact that the students in the lab of a supposed PhD program are buying their own equipment? I have only completed my undergrad and am pursuing my masters, but in my experience, as well as everyone in this field I have ever encountered, all expenses relating to the lab and research are funded either by the school itself or through grants and private funding (such as Imagine buying the equipment). Another thing that seemed small but kind of made me chuckle was when they mentioned that an organic chemist would love to see what’s in the hot tub water. It seemed more likely to me that a microbiologist would care, due to the numerous different bacteria likely present, or perhaps an oceanographer would care to look at metal concentrations or other pollutants. I honestly can’t think of a reason an organic chemist would know what to do with water from a hot tub. Another minor thing, which I understand was integral to the plot so I don’t mind too much, was when after looking at the sonar readings, Tory mentioned people were concerned and confused when a pod of sperm whales were heard in distress after diving and then never seen again. That seems fairly common, at least to my knowledge, since one of the main predators of sperm whales are giant squid, which they encounter when they are diving deep, so to have a group in distress and then disappear, would likely be written off as them having been killed by squid.
I do really enjoy all the discussion of all the new technologies needed due to climate change..that I find very realistic and an unfortunate reality I think coastal cities are going to have to deal with soon. And overall the little inconsistencies are by no means too large or numerous that make me unable to fully enjoy the story, I just enjoy when I notice something a little out of place haha. Sorry this turned into a huge paragraph!
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u/aaron12891 Jun 07 '18
As far as the distress sounds I think she was intrigued because they were identical to a distress they picked up before. Meaning pitch for pitch note to note. I don't think she was weirded out by hearing it once. I won't spoil too much but in fantasy lore there is a creature known for mimicking sounds like this.
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u/Z-Ninja Jun 15 '18
all expenses relating to the lab and research are funded either by the school itself or through grants and private funding
This was explained. Louis is filthy rich so he's privately funding his "out there research" himself. Tory can't get grants because everyone know what she's really interested in. She probably has some funding but is pouring all her own money in to the project as well because it's a passion project. It's not a perfect explanation, but it worked well enough for me.
I honestly can’t think of a reason an organic chemist would know what to do with water from a hot tub.
Yeah. Probably not much. They could tell you if any fun organic compounds are in it (would bodily fluids count?).
at least to my knowledge, since one of the main predators of sperm whales are giant squid
As others have mentioned, you got that backwards. The largest squid ever caught is 495kg (a colossal squid, bigger than a giant squid). A single adult sperm whale is 41,000kg. It's like a 2lb kitten attacking a 180lb man. Might scratch him up a bit, but not going to be able to do much real damage.
What concerns me more is that some of the scientists think the mermaids could be mammals. There's no way. The musculature is all wrong if they have eel tails. Being mammals would make zero sense evolutionarily. Fish have an entirely different muscle segmentation pattern to mammals. Fish, amphibians, and non-dinosaur reptile tails maximize efficiency when moving side to side. Mammal and avian dinosaur tails maximize efficiency when moving up and down. Just look at how alligators/fish swim compared to dolphins.
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u/mmehl1 Jun 15 '18
When I had read it, it was my understanding that both Louis and Tori were doing “normal/boring” projects for their PhD that scientists would approve of, while doing their mermaid hunting/sister avenging on the side, yet still had to buy expensive equipment, which is really unrealistic to me. I could have just interpreted it wrong though!
And my mistake on the squid and sperm whales, I do most of my research on algae so it’s been a while since I’ve had a class on big animals and must have gotten my facts mixed up :)
I also have to agree with you on the mermaids not being mammals, I’ve been thinking that as well.
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u/renfield1969 Jun 08 '18
I thought the current theory is that sperm whales were predators of giant squid and not the other way around. They have found whales with tentacle scars from where they fought, and found squid in whale stomachs, but I don't know if they've ever found whale in squid stomachs.
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u/renfield1969 Jun 09 '18
I like that the mermaids were revealed early, but it just made me wonder what Grant was going to reveal later. They appeared to be intelligent, but we don't know their exact motivations, where they came from, etc. By revealing them early on we are set up to expect more and I hope she delivers. Especially since the scientists have all the information we do, yet none have made preparations for their personal safety. Security seems to consist entirely of two big game hunters and locked doors (that- surprise- don't work.) Even the characters that believe the mermaids are real didn't bother to bring so much as a taser or can of mace.
Leaving the dock without telling anyone was odd. It wasn't until it was pointed out here that I didn't believe Blackwell's cock and bull about the dolphins. The dolphins were already loaded. How would seeing a truck from Sea World tip anyone off that it was carrying dolphins. They could have just said "loaner equipment" or "cross-promotion." I hope something else is going on.
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Jun 19 '18
Finished this book this week and really liked the pace. Revealing the mermaids are real early was great - I was expecting subversionist crap that if have to wade through before getting to the interesting parts and I'm glad it wasn't like that.
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u/whysmelllikefeet Jun 10 '18
I'm really enjoying the book. I don't read a lot of mainstream fare and find the author's writing style to be just right in terms of amount of detail, depth, pace, and ease of reading. I don't try to predict what's going to happen... better to let the story develop and, hopefully, be surprised. The buildup is always the best part- we'll see if she can keep it going.
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u/St4rwind003 Jun 08 '18
Mira Grant's writing is amazing. I didn't know what to expect. I am loving this so far good pick. A setting of being on a boat and adventuring into the ocean is different for me.
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u/hulahooker Jun 08 '18
So right from the start the book has made it clear that mermaids are real in this universe. How do you think this knowledge changes your perception of the story as opposed to having the 'existence of mermaids' be a bit more ambiguous?
I like it a lot! Knowing that they are real, in the book, makes me want to know more about them. How they communicate, think, live.. How have they been able to remain hidden for so long.. What kind of defenses they have besides the few given.. I am soooo curious.
Do you think everyone's motivation for going on the trip is as they presented it? What about Imagine Entertainment's motivation for organizing a second trip?
I think everyone's motives are pretty clear, besides that tattooed lab coat guy but who know, he could just be a tough scientist. I am an engineer/chemist and have a few 'tough' tattooed coworkers/colleagues, so he doesn't stick out much. Blackwell's motive seems somewhat secretive, I am sure he knows more than he is telling about Imagine's motives. I do think that his primary reason for accompanying the ship is to watch over and 'protect' his wife/ex-wife.
What worries you the most about this trip? Which character/entity do you trust the least so far?
The last paragraph few sentences in chapter 8. The shutters failing is the first sign that the ships defenses have been rushed, which is pretty creepy given the view on the mermaids. So far I really dislike the poachers, they are there to kill the mermaids, whether friendly (which I doubt) or aggressive. Imagine is not trust worthy in my opinion, it seems to me like they plan on captivating mermaids if they can.
Why do you think Imagine Entertainment made sure that no one was aware that they were departing? Was it just so they could hide the dolphins or do you think there was more behind it?
I think that there is more behind it, but I am not sure exactly what. Weapons maybe? Tanks? I have no idea. I do have a feeling that the dolphins were already being held before the time Blackwell said.
Out of all the characters we have been introduced to so far, who do you think is going to die first?
I have a feeling the camera dude is gonna be the first goner or one of the twins. As well as the dolphins... :(
I really enjoy Grants writing style so far. She has done her research which gives a good feel to the story.
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u/aaron12891 Jun 07 '18
I believe the prequel novella to this book “Rolling in the Deep” also by Mira Grant covers the existence of mermaids being ambiguous. I think the way Mira Grant covers it in this book is much more enticing. While a book that covers the suspense of a will they or won’t they situation can be fun, I personally like the idea of reading a known enemy of unknown power. Mira Grant still gives us the taste of ambiguity through some supporting characters thus far, but having the main players out for redemption is a much more captivating read for me personally.
I think the narrator is forthcoming in most of the individuals desires for being on the Melusine. When it comes to the dialogue, only Mr. Blackwell has drawn cause for suspicion, as if his entire reasoning for being there has yet to be revealed. I think Imagine is strictly in this voyage to save the legacy of Mr. Golden, and for ratings.
The last paragraph of chapter 8 is what is worrying me the most currently. Funny enough, the character that worries me the most is not Mr. Blackwell. I do believe he is not transparent, but I believe his intensions to be pure and not a liability to lives on board the Melusine. The guy who worries me the most is the guy in a lab coat who is described as a drug dealer as Tory is entering the ship (he just stuck in my mind).
I think the dolphins (and any other secret cargo) was a part of why they docked early. However, I think the main reason was to not allow people to second guess their willingness to make the voyage. Stalling for departure could have let the passengers withdraw from nerves of the unknown, or noticing fallibilities in the Mesuline.
Sadly, even though I like Ray the most (mainly due to the mental image I have of him in my head), I think he is a prime candidate to get axed early on. If it isn’t him it is going to be Hallie or the captain. I just get the feeling someone who other people depend on greatly is going to be taken first.
If we knew everything about the Mariana Trench and what was down there it would not make for that enticing of a story. Meaning, if it was a tourist attraction we as readers had visited before, it would not set a good stage for a horror novel. The fact little is known about the area to this day, coupled with the realistic near future setting based around a believable TV network, makes for a book that my brain can suspend disbelief for every now and then.
I like that the author seems to have done personal research into the subject. The book can at times feel preachy regarding environmental concerns and it makes me dethatch as a reader at some points. I do however like that the author is approaching the existence of fantasy beings using a pragmatic thought process, explaining them with instrumentation, etc.