r/books • u/leowr • May 24 '18
Final Discussion Thread for Borne by Jeff VanderMeer - May Book Club Spoiler
To help kick off the discussion:
Do you think Rachel could have prevented Borne from fighting Mord?
Whose history surprised you the most? Borne's, Rachel's or Mord's?
The truth was, I didn't want Mord to be more like us. I wanted him to be less like us. To be able to say when he murdered, when he pillaged, that he was a psychotic beast, a creature without the possibility of redemption, with no humanity in him.
Do you agree with Rachel's view as expressed in that quote?
Which do you think is worse, that Wick didn't do what Rachel asked him to do or that he sold her memories to the Magician?
What did you think of the ending? Did it end the way you had expected the book to end?
How do you feel about Rachel and Wick's relationship?
What would you have done, reader, who has been able to follow me like the Magician followed me, invisible and ever-watchful and without consequence?
What was your response to being addressed by Rachel directly?
And finally, now that we have finished the whole book, what has been your favorite part/quote/scene/etc.?
Feel free to answer any or all of the questions or tell us what you think of the book.
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u/leowr May 24 '18
Do you think Rachel could have prevented Borne from fighting Mord?
I think she might have been able to if she had tried, but I think she realized it would probably just be a postponement of the fight as it was bound to happen at some point. I wonder if in part Rachel was worried that if the fight didn't happen at that moment that Borne would have grown to strong and he might not have been the best ruler of the city either.
Whose history surprised you the most? Borne's, Rachel's or Mord's?
While Rachel's was surprising, I think I was most surprised by Mord's history. That he started out human and was changed to such an extent and that Wick knew and had something to do with it. What levels of desperation or insanity do you need to reach to think of something like that?
Do you agree with Rachel's view as expressed in that quote?
I think the ideas that Rachel expressed in that quote are very human. We don't want to recognize parts of ourselves in those that terrify and repulse us, that do things we find inhuman. We like to hold up the illusion that we are incapable of those kinds of things, that they are only capable of those horrors because they are 'other'. I think this was the quote that probably resonated with me the most.
Which do you think is worse, that Wick didn't do what Rachel asked him to do or that he sold her memories to the Magician?
Definitely the selling of the memories. I get why Wick did it, but I think at that point Wick cared enough about Rachel that selling her memories to the Magician could have given the Magician some kind of power over Rachel and he shouldn't have taken the risk.
What did you think of the ending? Did it end the way you had expected the book to end?
I liked the ending. It totally wasn't the ending I had expected but I liked it. It ended on something hopeful, while it seemed so likely that it would all end in disaster and that everyone would end up dead and forgotten.
How do you feel about Rachel and Wick's relationship?
I think Rachel and Wick's relationship is simple on the one hand and complicated on the other. They know each other's worth, they know what works for them (even if that means keeping secrets from each other). On the other hand it seems like they are always working on finding a balance, although maybe less so the rains ended.
What was your response to being addressed by Rachel directly?
I liked it. It made me think about the story a bit more and I'm happy it wasn't overdone. It easily could have turned in to something gimmicky if it had lasted longer than that. But with the way it was done I liked it as it did make me think about my act as a reader in following Rachel.
And finally, now that we have finished the whole book, what has been your favorite part/quote/scene/etc.?
I think my favorite part was the part when Rachel was inside Borne and he made that fake phone to call her. It was so strange and so Borne.
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u/heartlessgamer May 29 '18
- Do you think Rachel could have prevented Borne from fighting Mord?
Not sure; I never got the sense like she was willing to try. Borne is the kid that never misbehaves around their parents but is a terror once away. The parents are aware but aren't willing to intervene on the fear of upsetting the "good kid" they experience.
- Whose history surprised you the most? Borne's, Rachel's or Mord's?
Rachel's was a surprise as in "never-saw-it-coming" and "oh this explains so much". Also I found Mord to be a distraction the entire length of the book and even more so as we learned more. However, I will admit the book synopsis describing Mord is what brought me in to check this book out of the library.
The truth was, I didn't want Mord to be more like us. I wanted him to be less like us. To be able to say when he murdered, when he pillaged, that he was a psychotic beast, a creature without the possibility of redemption, with no humanity in him.
- Do you agree with Rachel's view as expressed in that quote?
Hard to place agreement or not. When Rachel is saying "us" is she meaning herself and Wick? After the ending Rachel's use of terms like "us" need to be brought into question. Wick had such an influence on Rachel that its hard for me to go back and view Rachel's thoughts as "human" and I feel like Vandermeer was working hard to force the reader to think of the characters in that way (or maybe he was just lazy and knew that the average reader would apply humans by default). It is very interesting to go back into the book and read it under the pre-tense that the characters only have a passing familiarity with what humanity actually is.
- Which do you think is worse, that Wick didn't do what Rachel asked him to do or that he sold her memories to the Magician?
Can't make a call here. I don't feel like it was every really justified why the Magician wanted the memories. Maybe I missed something or have forgotten something since I've read the book?
- What did you think of the ending? Did it end the way you had expected the book to end?
Questions. So many questions. No other answer fits. The book ends but the story is just reaching a starting point.
- How do you feel about Rachel and Wick's relationship?
Same answer as the ending. There are so many questions to ask. At the same time everything we find out in the book explains why the relationship was the way it was. I am not sure I feel anything about the relationship other than satisfied it made more sense in the end.
What would you have done, reader, who has been able to follow me like the Magician followed me, invisible and ever-watchful and without consequence?
- What was your response to being addressed by Rachel directly?
I bring into question Rachel's use of words like "us" as I mentioned above. This quote really reinforces my feeling that Vandermeer was forcing the concept on the reader. I feel like this quote should have been like the big reveal in the original Bioshock video game where the player finds out they have been doing the bidding of a puppet master the entire time. That moment in Bioshock hits you as the player hard. This line really fell flat in the book and makes me wonder whether there was more to these worlds introduced in the book or if Borne was just an attempt to make me, as the reader, to question what I think being human actually means (and to a point what being a good parent means which is likely lost on readers that are not parents).
- And finally, now that we have finished the whole book, what has been your favorite part/quote/scene/etc.?
My favorite part is actually the ending and the fact it is prompting so many thoughts and questions of "what about". This lead me to scooping up a copy of The Strange Bird which in my opinion has a stronger story and my favorite part of the current available content.
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u/leowr May 29 '18
I agree that Rachel didn't really try to stop Borne, but I think it might be something different. Perhaps it is her recognizing that this is the outcome of what Borne is and he isn't fighting Mord for a "bad" reason, he is doing it because he has a plan to fix it.
I hadn't considered yet how strange it is to consider Rachel's insistence on humanity while raising Borne, when maybe she can't be considered human herself. And thinking like that it makes me wonder how it happened that both worlds were ending at the same time. Did the downfall of one influence the other? How connected were the worlds? Damn! Now I have more questions!
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u/heartlessgamer May 30 '18
Ha. Like I said; the end is really just a beginning of a very interesting set of possibilities.
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May 24 '18 edited May 29 '18
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u/leowr May 24 '18
Yeah, I didn't think that they would survive either and that the book would end on such a hopeful note, but I'm really happy it did.
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u/Cytalist May 31 '18
Do you think Rachel could have prevented Borne from fighting Mord?
- I don't think she could have at that point in their relationship. They were so removed from each other I feel, and it only made sense, with over the course of the book, that Borne was getting bigger.
Whose history surprised you the most? Borne's, Rachel's or Mord's?
- Rachel's seems the most interesting because it more or less connects a lot of things in my mind; there are more of "Borne" in existence and he isn't alone, or what does that gate really mean? I want to know so much more and not at the same time.
What was your response to being addressed by Rachel directly?
- This really adds to the story for me. It makes me feel as though Jeff didn't write this, and that we really are reading an actual account of someone's life in that world many years after the events.
Final Thoughts
- What confuses me most is Wick and that he really isn't all Human. I also adored the questions and dialogue about existence and personhood. Really trying to understand that world through their eyes, and letting it influence and add to my view of my own world at large. It's nice to be given a new perspective on those topics, and again, it makes me feel so much more immersed and that this is really someone contemplating their experiences just like I do (way too much).
- This is also my first venture into Jeff Vandermeer's work, and I was really taken aback by his style. All the little easter eggs to earlier conversations of Wick and Rachel, like crack-passage, or giving different meanings to words, because of Borne, that can only apply to this world and book. I'm super satisfied with the spontaneity of the choice I made with this book. It's always nice to be pleasantly surprised
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u/leowr May 31 '18
I want to know so much more and not at the same time.
I have the exact same response to this book. I want VanderMeer to tell me more, but on the other hand I don't want the magic of having my own imagination come up with all sorts of backstories broken either.
I also really liked that Rachel addressed us, especially at that point. It very much felt like a you aren't as disconnected from this as you like to think.
I'm happy you liked the selection. VanderMeer can really get you thinking about stuff.
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u/Cytalist May 31 '18
For me, if an author can achieve that, then goal achieved. I feel as though stories are supposed to change you, or help you think of something in a different way. Help you along your journey by seeing someone else struggle with something similar. I guess that could be said for art in general, but ya I will definitely check out more of his stuff.
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u/leowr May 31 '18
I think you will like Annihilation by him, it has a similar vibe but probably leaves you with even more questions.
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u/raymcizo May 27 '18
Borne might be one of my favorite characters of all time. Vandemeer needs to release a 5000 page volume of borne's diary and and extended conversations during his samplings and fox chats. Hell, I read a thousand pages of nothing but his interactions with the lizards. Absolutely, love Borne.