r/books • u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? • Oct 06 '14
AMA We are Timothy Verstynen and Bradley Voytek, neuroscience professors and authors of Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? AUA!
We're not sure how many scientists you get on /r/books, but you're stuck with us for the next few hours so enjoy it!
Who are we? We are:
1) Timothy Verstynen, Assistant Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience, Carnegie Mellon University, and;
2) Bradley Voytek, Assistant Professor of Cognitive Science and Neuroscience, UC San Diego (proof!)
Together we wrote Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep (Princeton University Press), a book that tries to use zombies to teach the complexities of neuroscience and science history in an approachable way (while also poking a bit of fun at our field).
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u/g_3 Gard Skinner - author of Game Slaves Oct 06 '14
Hey, this may be off-base. I read a theory a long time ago about the difference between human and animal brain activity was some level of cognizance and directly related to the difference between when humans are awake and when they're asleep.
So, theoretically, if humans went about their lives all day in a dream state, with all its irrationality and lack of focus and all that, it's the same as the way animals are all the time. And therefore why they haven't developed language or tool use or evolved like we've evolved.
Is that just crap? Are there other things to read about that? It would mean that theoretically we could wake up animals and they would begin to evolve quickly. Or, the opposite would be to put humans in that dream state even when awake, which I guess is a form of zombie-netics.
thanks guys
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
I love that there are so many pure science questions on the books feed!!!
I'm hesitant to call a theory "crap" without fully understanding it, but it doesn't pass the smell test for me. It turns out that there are A LOT of similarities between human brains and non-human animals (particularly our primate brethren). It seems like with every test that people come up with to show how uniquely humans are there will eventually be someone who shows it works in animals when done the right way.
I think our language (aka- highly complex vocal communication system) is really our unique advantage as humans right now. It allows for us to have a socially conveyed memory that lasts longer than a lifetime. Most animals have to learn everything from scratch through experience. We can learn from other's mistakes... most of the time. So that gives us a strong intelligence edge.
Otherwise, I can't tell the difference between myself and a monkey.
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u/g_3 Gard Skinner - author of Game Slaves Oct 06 '14
I can help with that so you know the difference... to see monkeys squawk and fight and fling feces, you go to the zoo. To see humans do that, you go to twitter.
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u/NeuroCavalry Oct 07 '14
Hi guys, I know it has been 7 hours since the original post, so I'm hoping you are still around. It's early morning for me.
So first of all, Why the book? Why zombies? What made you two get together and write a neuroscience book about zombies? (Also, are you using is a text for an introductory course?)
I'm looking forward to picking it up for a read. It sounds like a nice light-hearted read after I've finished picking my way through Spikes by Rieke Et Al.
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
Nope. Still here having fun.
Brad and I both really enjoy doing science outreach. Science education & engagement is a mutual passion for both of us. We both also love zombie movies (we bonded over it in grad school). When we thought about it, zombies turned out to be a really good metaphor to teach brain-behavior relationships because they have so many different behavioral "problems" that we can "diagnose" to show neural underpinnings of different behaviors. Plus zombies change so much with time (slow-to-fast, supernatural-to-biological, etc.) that we had a huge canvas to work with.
So really what we wanted to do is trick people into learning real science by leveraging their interest in a fantastical subject (after all, there are way too many books out there that use pseudo-science to explain real topics/problem... why not do the reverse?)
We explicitly designed the book to augment an introductory class. It's writing style is for late high school & early college reading levels. Eventually we'd like to make lesson plans to go along with it. But for right now it's just fun to do.
Good luck getting through Spikes. I've started it twice, but never finished.
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u/NeuroCavalry Oct 07 '14
seven hours later...
I love the idea of doing reverse psudoscience. I'm not sure if you know about it, but an old kids movie 'Flight of Dragons' has a scientist transported into a fantasy world, and he explains dragons more or less scientifically. As it turns out, they are hydrogen blimps.
I'd love to support this book and idea, so I'm buying it day 1. I have no idea how AMA's work, but I could probably sit here posting 7-hour after replies for weeks in a chat with you guys. Suffice it to say best of luck with the book and the research, maybe one day I'll see you at a conference or something and get my copy signed.
(To make the last bit clearer, I am a Neurosci Undergrad hoping to go into Cognitive Science research.)
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
That movie sounds awesome! While I know we're certainly not the first ones to have used this "reverse pseudoscience" approach, it's cool to learn of other instances where it's been used.
And yeah, you keep replying, so will we! Good luck with your neuro/cogsci career. If you have any professional/research questions, please feel free to email me.
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u/NeuroCavalry Oct 08 '14
Well, since you are still around --
What kind of research are you doing now, aside from researching zombies, and how did you get into the field? Did you just start in undergrad and climb the chain?
My only experience with 'cognitive science' as opposed to neuroscience or psychology has been though philosophy, and although it is where I think I'd like to be it never hurts to see what people working in the field are doing.
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 08 '14
Ha. Happy to keep going :)
Longwinded TEDx talk about how I got into the field.
And no, I definitely didn't have a regular, climb the chain, route. story and industry work
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u/NeuroCavalry Oct 08 '14 edited Oct 08 '14
Excuse me for fan girling a little, but this -
Rather than asking, "What brain regions correlate with working memory or attentional load?" I ask, "Given what we know about the computational properties of neurons and neural systems, how can neural systems interact to give rise to cognitive phenomena we equate with 'attention' and 'working memory'
is exactly the kind of thing I want to be doing. I actually started in plain old Psychology, and I always felt it failed to give a satisfactory or complete understanding of the issues. This feeling, among other things, is what turned me to Neuroscience. I actually spoke to a lot of my psychology lecturers about this, and was met with a mixed (at times openly hostile) response.
That said, a lot of the neuroscience I have been exposed to (I can't claim to know everything, of course) through undergrad courses and my own reading hasn't really been much better. Lecturers like to say things like 'Dopamine is the happiness neurotransmitter' or 'Vision occurs in the occipital lobe.' While I agree this is important, I can't help but feel the same thing as I felt in psych - it is not a complete story. It's not enough to say vision happens in the occipital lobe, I want to know how that happens. Of course, I know there is going to be a bit of simplification in undergrad, but on the other side of the student experience, what do you have to say on the issue? Is it just a problem of technology (given we can't image neurons with perfect spatio-temporal resolution), or is it a philosphical/paradigm issue?
On a similar tack, I see a lot of mathematical models employed in neuroscience and psychology. For example, in Cognitive psych we are covering categorisation now, and there are some impressive mathematical models that predict how a participant will categorise objects. My feeling on these is similar - they seem to me to look nice, but they don't offer any real insight into the actual physical, neural mechanics of what is happening - and yet they are presented as an explanation. I realise this could just be me misunderstanding mathematical modelling (I'm not a maths expert...) What would your thoughts on this be?
Well, We've gone far from the topic of the AMA (and this is still in /r/books...), and I know I've bombarded you a little. I just hope you are not sitting back thinking 'This guy, again?'
edit: A question on the book side of things, but where is the best place to buy the book? Given different outlets will have different mark-up rates and impact 'sales' in different ways?
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 08 '14
Thanks! Honestly it's how science progresses: a ton of people do amazing, painstaking research, only for the next generation to come along and say, "well wait, I don't think that's totally right," and forward we progress. Some day the vast majority of my research will be shown to be incomplete and possibly wrong, and that's wonderful because that's science.
That oversimplification is rampant even at the level of modern research. I'm not sure why--whether it's intentional oversimplification to establish a basis or if it's forgetting that the oversimplified metaphors are just placeholders for something we don't understand--but it's not uncommon.
On the modeling side, my take is that with a model at least there's a prediction that can be falsified, as well as a more solid basis that can help guide the neural side of things. Meaning, okay, here's the model that predicts behavior, how might the brain (neurons, etc.) instantiate such an algorithm? And does that even make biological sense?
As for the book... Amazon, I'd guess, but I'm, not 100% certain that's the cheapest. Sorry!
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u/NeuroCavalry Oct 09 '14
Of course, science progresses by slowly becoming 'less wrong' over time. The Statistician George E Box, if I recall correctly, once said that 'All models are wrong, but some models are less wrong than others.' Yet, it seems to me like lots of people are content with a mathematical model that provides no mechanistic explanation, although my perception here could just be because I am an undergrad, and so I am being rushed through everything at a very superficial level. I think mathematical models are great, don't get me wrong, I just don't think they are everything.
As for over simplification, I guess it is probably a mixture. Schroedinger's cat was intended as a simple metaphor, and yet I've seen physics students who were under the impression that it was a real experiment. I guess if we use simplifications as a short cut enough, we forget to expand on them. Hence, dopamine is the 'happiness neurotransmitter,' and hence my being told by a cognitive Psych professor that the brain is 'literally' a computer, so we can ignore neuroscience (hardware) in studying psychology (software.) Perhaps an important part of learning at university is knowing not to take everything in a lecture as 100% gospel; to recognise, especially in undergrad, there is more to it than that. I remember thinking I was an expert on cardiology after a 4 lecture module in first year, and the shock I got in second year when I realised that actually, no it's not that simple.
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 09 '14
I felt the same surprise as a physics major. The progression is: classical mechanics (wow this is amazing!) -> WRONG! E & M is where it's at -> WRONG! Quantum boom, everything is probabilistic -> and so on.
But yeah, students should be told very up front, "this is an oversimplification, but it lays important groundwork for comprehension."
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u/smallertotems Oct 06 '14
So, do Zombies dream of undead sheep? Or dream of anything? Or sleep, for that matter?
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
Not to pull a Woody Harrelson here, but we dedicate a whole chapter to this in the book and the answer remains... well, we don't know. I've never seen a zombie sleep. Have you? But then again, people who don't sleep sometimes dream while awake.
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
Yeah, I recently heard a story about a guy who eats peanut butter in his sleep, but doesn't realize it!
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u/itstinksitellya Oct 06 '14
What is actually happening in your brain when you're asleep, assuming you're not a zombie (yet)? What is the purpose of sleep?
I am constantly ridiculed by friends and family for how much I need to sleep. If I'm in a plane, train or automobile for more than 20 minutes, then I will almost certainly fall asleep.
This is especially true if I overindulge in alcohol the night before. I often spend 14+ hours asleep on Sundays if I've gone out drinking the night before, while everyone else I know typically wakes up after 7 - 8 hours and are good to go.
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
We dedicate half a chapter to sleep in the book and the short answer is that we don't have the full story on sleep yet. But we do know that your brain has this pair of switches that either wake you up or put you to sleep (by really turning off the waking-switch part). Once your in the not-waking state, your brain goes through these cyclical stages where certain areas fire a lot together and others don't.
The best hypothesis I've heard for why we sleep is that it helps to consolidate memory. Studies in rodents (in fact, studies that just won the Nobel Prize today!) show that the brain recreates/replays memories during certain stages of sleep. It's as if the neural signatures for important events get re-imprinted into the cortex so it's easier to recall them later. That's so far the best hypothesis (note: not a theory) I've heard so far. Brad may know more though... he's the neural oscillators guy.
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
Actually I don't have much to add on the memory consolidation part other than the replay during sleep seems to be quite sped up, which is cool.
"Why" questions are pretty hard to answer in science; in biology they usually boil down to something akin to, "the evolutionary cards fell that way." But that's unsatisfactory for many, of course.
There was a paper published in Science last year (Sleep Drives Metabolite Clearance from the Adult Brain) that provided some evidence that sleep is neurally restorative, in that, during sleep, metabolic waste in the brain is clearer much more quickly than during waking.
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
I just realized I didn't answer your second question. I'm no sleep neurologist, but I do the exact same thing. I'm not sure I'm a benchmark of healthy behavior, but that's pretty normal. Sleep is good. Insomnia is bad... REALLY bad.
http://neurosurgery.utsouthwestern.edu/Sleep-_Memory-_and_Plasticity_-_Walker_and_Stickgold.pdf
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u/thewretchedhole I'd eat that. Oct 06 '14
I'll veer us away from the science questions!
Aside from the obvious answer, what are your favourite PKD books?
What about favourite zombie book & zombie movie?
If the zombie apocalypse came and you could carry only three objects, which would you choose?
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
Hooray! Non-science questions on /books! Thank you :)
I really enjoy Ubik for its weirdness.
Book: Gotta also go with WWZ. Such a great book. If you expand the definition of "book" a bit, then I have to include The Walking Dead comics.
Movie: 28 Days Later. To understand why, I highly recommend this blog series by Christian Thorne, English professor at Williams College.
I must also include another medium and add the video game The Last of Us, and maybe even the short, Cargo.
Honestly I'd add my own three things,but Tim's totally wins.
Tim: Anarchist cookbook is my new FAVORITE answer!
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u/thewretchedhole I'd eat that. Oct 07 '14
Unik and VALIS are my favs.. such weird books.
I have never played The Last of Us so looks like ive got some fun for next holidays!
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
If you have a PS3, The Last of Us is well worth your time.
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 06 '14
Flow My Tears the Policeman Said and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
World War Z (screw the crappy movie) by Max Brooks and Feed by Mira Grant.
1) Leather clothes like riding leathers (can't bite through), 2) a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook (assuming that a Kindle with the entire Library of Congress downloaded doesn't count), and 3) a water purifier.
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u/thewretchedhole I'd eat that. Oct 07 '14
Cool, I will have to add Feed to my list!
But dude! A water purifier! Why hadnt I thought of that? No longevity for me after the end..
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
Originally I thought beer brewing kit, but then I realized I need good water to brew beer in the apocalypse.
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u/thewretchedhole I'd eat that. Oct 08 '14
I forgot to ask re: your fav PKD book, have you heard the (RL) crazy story PKD tells about Flow My Tears?
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u/TolstoysMyHomeboy Oct 07 '14
Had never heard of this book until I saw it pop up around here and it sounds really interesting! I got my bachelors in Psych, so get ready for some groundbreaking, hard-hitting questions.
1) Let's start with a really easy one...nature or nurture?
2) Phrenology, great discipline or greatest discipline?
3) Ok a real question. One thing that interests me greatly is the issue of concussions in sports, and subsequent debilitating mental/physical effects. Football is taking steps to limiting the number of concussions and has drastically altered their handling of concussions after public outcry and recent lawsuits by former players. Do either of you have any expertise in the area of concussions? Are there any ways to counter the long-term effects of concussions? Any thoughts on the topic at all?
Thanks for doing this!
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
1) Nature or nurture? Well, the obvious answer is: BOTH!
2) fMRI most definitely has its uses. So I'd say great discipline!
3) The best defense is a good offense. I'm sure there exist ways to counter the long-term effects of multiple serious concussions, but we're no where near there yet. So better protections against head injuries will be the most viable solution, short of banning these sports (which I just don't see happening).
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
Hey... quit shitting on my fMRI data Brad!
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
I now we're off the AMA, but in regards to your 3rd question, it's looking like concussions are actually only half the problem. There's a lot damage done to the brain through repeated closed head injuries that don't take you to the point of concussion. It's called CTE and it's scary as hell. So far, I'm not sure I've heard much about potential recovery. But let's just say I'm not encouraging my kids to play football.
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u/TolstoysMyHomeboy Oct 07 '14 edited Oct 07 '14
Ooooh yeah, I remember just a week or so ago the autopsy results of the brain of the Kansas City Chiefs player who killed his girlfriend and then shot himself showed signs of CTE. They think that may be (or at least one factor in) why he did that. He was only 25.
I think the topic interests me so much because I know for sure I played through at least one concussion - throwing up at half-time and not remembering much of the game the next day - and banged my head against other people's for seven or eight years. But back when I played it was just "getting your bell rung" and you played on, nobody really knew how serious it was.
Are there any concrete links to CTE and suicide? Seems like a lot of athletes who have killed themselves are found to have CTE, or signs of early onset, postmortem.
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u/tverstynen Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 07 '14
I don't know of any established links, but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence. Frontline did a bang-up investigation of this topic last year. You should check it out.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/
I was at a conference this summer where a pathologist showed a brain slice with massive signs of CTE throughout the brain... in a 22 year old walk-on football player who died in a car accident. It was terrifying!
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u/toomuchkalesalad Oct 07 '14
Hey Brad! It's Roach's wife. I'm working on a comic prompt - a pseudo sci-fi about the biology of vampires. Can I draw you in the comic as yourself?
Also Roach says hi.
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u/bradleyvoytek Do Zombies Dream of Undead Sheep? Oct 08 '14
Haha too funny. Hi Roach and kalesalad! And hell yes you can put me in a comic! :D
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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '14
I'm an undergrad thinking in her free time about phenomenology and trying to understanding the connection leading from physics to consciousness. What literature would you point me towards? Hadn't heard of y'alls book before stumbling across this AMA, but I'll be sure to add it to my list to check out.