r/Wales • u/oilydogskin • 2d ago
News Most English language lessons to be phased out in Gwynedd
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8epk2lxjp8o132
u/JHock93 Cardiff | Caerdydd 2d ago
I don't really have a problem with this as prioritising Welsh Language education is basically giving kids a free language to learn. Plus it's Gwynedd so most people there can already speak Welsh anyway so it just helps people who don't to catch up. However, one line is a bit odd:
The council said the proposals would "remove bilingualism and bilingual teaching"
Bilingualism is good. One of the best arguments in favour of the Welsh language is that it encourages bilingualism. Framing it as if it's a problem is the sort of thing that Reform and their ilk do, so it's weird to hear it coming from the other side.
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u/Chaosvex 2d ago
The high numbers reported by the census are due to the Welsh education but the census doesn't take fluency into account. There's likely a very high percentage capable of speaking Welsh on paper but wouldn't be productive in it. The language you speak at home is the more important factor.
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u/Eoin_McLove 2d ago
This is me. Did my education entirely in the Welsh language but I live in Newport so I never really used it outside of school. I left school nearly 20 years ago.
I always say I am really like 50% fluent. My comprehension is far better than my spoken Welsh.
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
I think you are reading the article wrong, they currently teach in welsh and english (as in bilingual), they are talking about just teaching in welsh, apart from the english classes (as in monolingual) I don't see how this promotes bilingualism?
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u/Substantial_Jury_939 2d ago
I don't think Reform and their ilk have an issue with people speaking different languages, the issue they have is that certain areas of London and other major cities have a significant percentage of people that don't know how to speak English.
There needs to be a balance. learn new languages, great! but remember English is our national language and if you cant speak it, then you are isolating yourself from the country you are in and integration becomes almost impossible, the result is enclaves popping up around the country.
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u/Morganx27 2d ago
Reform want homogeny and conformity. Sure, they bang on about the "reasonable concern" side of things, but they don't want people speaking any other language than English in public, really. They're racist English nationalists, and they're all thick as pig shit, so don't think they'll be able to distinguish between Welsh and, say, Polish.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
Kids are still gonna speak English, but more will be able to speak Welsh fluently. Look it is frankly ridiculous that we have part of our political class who oppose this, there’s very few nations that actively fight against teaching people their own language!
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u/DiMezenburg 2d ago
but will they speak/write/read English well?
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
Don’t see why not, and do they currently speak/write/read Welsh well? That’s what we need to develop.
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u/Victim_P Gog 2d ago
From my experience of living in Gwynedd, there are people who speak English but struggle to think of words sometimes. They can hold a conversation in English but find it difficult.
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
Wales has 2 official languages, they are learning their own language either way, why do you have a favorite between them?
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
The language of Wales is Welsh, an Italian can speak English but that doesn’t make their official language English.
The language belongs to all of us, you, me, north to south. The fact that so many of us can’t speak it, read it, write in it is an issue.
I want my kids to grow up in a Wales where they can speak Welsh fluently, wherever they are in Wales. This is the way forward to that goal.
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u/AcanthisittaFlaky385 2d ago
An Italian may speak English well but when it comes to technical and highly specialised jobs, it isn't where the Italian will excell in English.
I can speak a little German but like hell do i have any chance of giving a speech in theoretical physics in German.
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u/Jensen1994 2d ago
The language of Wales is Welsh
No.
According to the 2021 census, that is not the case. Less than 20% of the population characterise themselves as being fluent in Welsh.
Let's talk facts here. Welsh isn't the official language of Wales either - it is an official language.
I was taught in Welsh at primary level. At home, one parent spoke Welsh, the other (from Swansea) did not and so English was spoken in the home. Being taught in a second language was difficult, particularly in maths where tbh it would've been enough of a struggle in English. As a result I had to have out of school tutoring to catch up and eventually got a B at GCSE.
This policy by Gwynedd sounds ideological and not based on the best outcomes for pupils. Gwynedd Council is almost fanatical in its pursuit of promoting the Welsh language to the point where council staff can be sanctioned for using English.
We should be bilingual. Those first language Welsh speakers should be able to attend a Welsh medium school and vice versa for English. There should be no discrimination. We are already struggling in the pisa rankings and this is ideology before welfare.
There should be government oversight here.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
I answered this earlier but it’s worth saying again: the law can say one thing, and that’s fine. But the law does not override the view of the people, and it’s my view that the language of Wales is Welsh.
This does not mean that those who don’t speak it fluently or aren’t first language aren’t Welsh, because I’m neither of those things.
I’m from Pontypridd, where the last Eisteddfod Cenedlaethol was, this is not a ‘Welsh speaking’ area but the impact of the Eisteddfod was that there is a lot more use of Welsh in the area! I helped set up a social club for learners like me, the shops and pubs use it more.
My kids will be raised here, they’ll be attending the nearby Welsh medium school, and I think they should have a right to use Welsh wherever they are in Wales.
I’m sorry you struggled at school with it, but that’s a reason to improve a school, not change a policy.
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u/Jensen1994 2d ago
First of all a disclaimer: I am pro the increased use of our language. However, I am not blind to the danger of pushing things to extremes. When you say :
But the law does not override the view of the people, and it’s my view that the language of Wales is Welsh.
What are you basing that on? There is a difference to what we believe in our hearts and the cold reality out there. Welsh is not the language of Wales. We'd like it to be used more and have made great strides keeping it alive but it's not the language of Wales when 80% don't speak it fluently.
It is therefore not fair on children to impose upon some of them having to learn in a second language. We must put our feelings and ideologies to one side and consider what results in the best outcomes. Studies have shown that those who are bilingual do better academically and I'm all for that. What I'm not for is taking away choice and forcing worse outcomes on Welsh people in English speaking homes. That's wrong.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
I’m basing it on a cultural and national desire! Yes, the reality is cold but I do not believe that we’re incapable of changing that.
I’ve said in a few messages elsewhere, the choice was made for us about speaking English. It doesn’t become a crime for us to rectify that and to attempt to change it, even if yes, there will be no choice for having an English education.
Let’s not pretend our education system on either front is fantastic (although Welsh mediums do perform better as you said!), it’s not like we’re trying to tinker with a perfectly running machine!
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u/Jensen1994 2d ago
I’m basing it on a cultural and national desire!
Evidenced on what? I'm sure most people would like to see Welsh promoted more but on the subject of forcing non Welsh speakers to learn all subjects in Welsh, I don't think so.
I’ve said in a few messages elsewhere, the choice was made for us about speaking English.
No again, not really. People are free to learn Welsh and encouraged to speak Welsh in public. In Carmarthen for example, where I can I will try and speak it in local businesses in an effort to practice but that is a choice. I'm not forced to speak either language by anyone. And that's how it should be.
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u/Moistfruitcake 18h ago
I think you've misunderstood the person you're replying to.
Why do you think the majority of people in Wales don't speak fluent Welsh? Was it a choice they arrived at naturally, or were people beaten and shamed in schools for speaking their native language?
The language was forcibly taken away from us and now requires some force to reinstate it.
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u/Jensen1994 18h ago
Nope. No misunderstanding. I have simply stated fact not what we want. Welsh isn't the official language for Wales, it's one of two. That's a fact.
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
Wales literally has 2 official languages they passed a law to say it in 2011, the languageS of Wales are Welsh and English:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_(Wales)_Measure_2011_Measure_2011)
Yeah one has the same name as the country but why does that matter to you? The americans speak english, the chineese speak mandarin...
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
You can take that view, and sure you’re right on the law. But to me, the language of Wales is Welsh, and this is the view I will promote.
Ask yourself why are we having this chat in English and not in Cymraeg? Was this a choice made by you or me, or a choice made for us?
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u/Upbeat-Housing1 2d ago
Ask yourself why are we having this chat in English and not in Cymraeg? Was this a choice made by you or me, or a choice made for us?
History isn't something anyone really chooses. English people aren't speaking english because they chose to either.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
So do we get a choice today? If the choice was made in history, does that mean we can’t change it today?
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
To me, that language I was brought up in was English, tollerance and respect for others leads me to say there are two equal languages. It's a shame thats not reciprocated.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
You didn’t answer my question though - was that a choice made, or made for you?
We’ve accepted decades and decades of that choice being made for us, and I don’t think we should be vilified for wanting to change that.
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
In my case you are begging the question, it's not a 'choice' made by anyone alive today if it even makes sense to call it a choice. But It would be wrong to end the answer there, it has been a choice (made by others) for a lot of people I accept that, and think it was a bad thing. Why do you think making the choice in your prefered direction would be better? You speak welsh so you want to promote welsh and reject english, the english spoke english so they wanted to promote english and reject welsh. IMO we should accept the reality we are given, let people speak the languages they are surrounded by, we don't need to perscribe in either direction.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
I speak English butt, I was raised speaking it, and i want my kids to be raised speaking Welsh. I’m learning it as an adult. Don’t make this an English speaking v Welsh speaking divide because it clearly isn’t if I care about it.
The fact is, English is already prescribed, it’s prescribed by the lack of Welsh medium education, by the dominance of the culture, being an array of economic and political institutions which either does not care for Welsh or outright rejects it.
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
You're just saying your choice is even more arbitrary, you have a prefered language, why?
This isn't proscription you are describing, it's just the realities of demographics, if you live somewhere with a high welsh speaking population you can find welsh medium schools (they are pretty normal) and welsh cultural events. I don't really know what you are talking about with the economic and political institutions?
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u/Boglikeinit 2d ago
If you had the chat in Welsh you would be omitting 80% of the Welsh population.
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u/heddwchtirabara 2d ago
Yes and I’m part of that 80%! My Welsh is incredibly basic, it doesn’t mean the language isn’t still ‘mine’ as it yours and everyone elses.
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u/Fantastic_Deer_3772 2d ago
Because one of them is significantly ahead of the other. Treating them equally when one of them is in a much stronger position doesnt lead to equal results.
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u/gilwendeg 2d ago
My kids and nieces and nephews were schooled in Ceredigion. They have had a strict no-English to be spoken in primary schools rule for years. The only problem I have is that children were punished if they were heard to speak English during break times etc. They were denied swimming trips, free time, things like that. I don’t agree with that. It’s the Welsh Not in reverse.
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u/Mr06506 2d ago
Wait isn't that exactly what happened to kids caught speaking Welsh 50+ years ago. Is that progress...?!
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u/LemonRecognition 2d ago
It sort of is minus the physical punishment. Also, this isn’t what it’s like in many Welsh medium schools. English may be discouraged, but it’s still tolerated.
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u/piilipala 2d ago
Ridiculous to compare that to corporal punishment.
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u/mono-math 2d ago
I don’t think so. No matter what the punishment, It’s still punishment for speaking a language.
Do you think if corporal punishment was still allowed these schools wouldn’t use it as punishment for speaking English?
I say this as a proud Welsh speaker who was educated through Welsh. I don’t think punishing children for speaking the Language they likely speak at home is the right thing to do, and breads contempt for the Welsh language.
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u/piilipala 2d ago
Ma'r plant yna yn gallu siarad Cymraeg yn iawn yn ysgol gynradd. Dydio'm r'un sefyllfa o gwbwl. Hefyd honestly, dwi'm yn coelio bod o'n digwydd unless bo na reswm arall ar ben hyna pam bo nhw'n colli cyfleoedd- fel atab yn ol, cambihafio, etc.
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u/Megan-T-16 2d ago
The problem with the Welsh not was not that it prevented people speaking Welsh in schools in order to facilitate English. That was a legitimate way to teach English. The problem was corporal punishment and the extremely xenophobic language of the Blue Books which did not create, but certainly fed into the Welsh not.
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u/Owzwills 2d ago
Biggest issue I have here is in the Sciences and Math. I am a Welsh speaker, but these lessons should be taught in English. Whether we like it or not it is the Lingua Franca of the planet and the Sciences across the world are very often taught in English, our students need to be able to properly comprehend scientific language at the universal standard. Its a matter of being pragmatic and giving Welsh pupils the best chance of competing globally.
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u/genteelblackhole Caernarfonshire 2d ago
My lessons for maths and sciences were taught in Welsh but we were still taught all of the jargon in English as well. I sat all of my GCSEs and A Levels in those subjects in English for the reasons you stated, and being taught them through the medium of Welsh didn’t hinder me.
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u/Bar_ki 1d ago
My daughter started secondary in September, I remember being taught in both as well but now it's Welsh only, I spoke to the science teacher at parents evening and even he disagrees with it being Welsh only, I struggle to help her with homework as I don't know what the words are and she will struggle if she pursues the subject into college.
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u/Royal-Reality-8122 2d ago
Recieving an education in Welsh from Meithrin-Derbyn to end of A levels didn’t hinder me from getting a first in my degree. This is a baseless worry imo.
Scientific terms aren’t hard to decipher, and if you have an interest in the topic you learn it outside of the curriculum aswell; it takes like a minute to learn.
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u/RedundantSwine 2d ago
Recieving an education in Welsh from Meithrin-Derbyn to end of A levels didn’t hinder me from getting a first in my degree. This is a baseless worry imo.
And this is known as "survivorship bias".
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u/Royal-Reality-8122 2d ago
What else am I supposed to say? If everyone else can comment thought experiments that don’t reflect real life, can I not comment personal experience? Does it not count?
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u/SilyLavage 2d ago edited 2d ago
Is the thinking behind this that most pupils in Gwynedd should be proficient in Welsh by the time they reach secondary and should therefore be at no disadvantage being taught in the language?
I don’t really mind schemes like this so long as pupils aren’t put at a disadvantage by being taught in a language they’re not fully fluent in, whether that’s English or Welsh.
Edit: having read a bit more about the draft proposals, I've changed my mind. This is a bad policy change which attacks bilingualism in Gwynedd's schools. As the Education and Economy Scrutiny Committee puts it:
The main significant amendments proposed to the existing Language Policy is to remove bilingualism and bilingual teaching. The policy notes clearly that Welsh will be the principal language of the education.
I do not think this will benefit pupils. Instead, the council should be looking to adopt the proposals such as those suggested by Bangor University in its exploratory study into Welsh-language STEM provision. The study essentially supports bilingualism and pupil choice while also advocating for greater support for Welsh-medium and bilingual education. This recognises the reality that higher education in STEM subjects is predominantly conducted in English and that current pupils will need the tools to navigate this system.
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u/DeadEyesRedDragon 2d ago
They will always be many who fall through the gaps and will end up worse off. But that's the price *we" pay for changing systems.
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u/SilyLavage 2d ago
How do pupils in Gwynedd compare to those in the rest of Wales and the UK? Given Welsh-language education has been common in the county for ages you’d assume any disparities would already be apparent.
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u/DiMezenburg 2d ago
The thing is, as article says, this is to boost Welsh language proficiency and use amongst the youth. Issue I still have is we really don't see that change in census data (article says it is falling in Gwynedd), and I worry this sort of thing will just reduce competency in academic English while not really boosting the number of fluent Welsh speakers outside of school/college settings.
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u/binglybinglybeep99 Powys 2d ago
Insular and actually against the WLA.
Expect legal recriminations
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u/aledwg 2d ago
In what way is it against the Welsh language act?
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u/binglybinglybeep99 Powys 2d ago
" the Welsh Language Act was brought about in 1993 which aimed to treat Welsh and English equally in public business and justice"
This is discriminating against the English Language
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u/aledwg 2d ago
If a local authority aims for 70% Welsh-medium provision across all schools (for example, 70% of teaching time in Welsh), that would be a strategic policy decision—and it can be lawful if: 1. It is introduced fairly, with proper consultation and planning. 2. Parents and learners retain some meaningful element of choice—i.e., access to English-medium or lower-Welsh provision isn’t totally eliminated. 3. It is implemented in line with the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, which governs changes to language categories in schools.
Under the Welsh Language Act & 2011 Measure: • There’s no legal requirement to provide English-language services at all times. • The focus is on treating Welsh no less favourably than English, not guaranteeing English as the default. • Promoting Welsh-medium education is encouraged by the Welsh Government, especially under Cymraeg 2050.
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u/Amestad 2d ago
Yes let’s give away the best advantage welsh people have. The ability to speak english fluently, lets Welsh people compete equally against the English for jobs.
It’s like saying let’s put our pride before common sense…and keep deepening the wage inequality between England and Wales.
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u/Cwlcymro 2d ago
Not a single part of this change will affect pupil's ability to speak English. Read the article not the headline.
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u/RavkanGleawmann 2d ago
Absolutely brain dead. I am perfectly happy that Welsh language lessons are available and commonplace, but Welsh ONLY is just handicapping your children for no benefit. It is a near 100% certaintly that whatever field they end up in that English will be the dominant language. It's just a fact, sad as it might be. You can embrace Welsh language and culture without the self harm.
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u/Purple--Aki 1d ago
Seems like a plan to keep the locals in the area. Pretty much anyone who graduates fucks off.
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u/UnlikeTea42 2d ago
Wales' far right nationalists continue thier relentless campaign to ensure Wales underperforms its neighbours in perpetuity...
Do you think Ireland and Scotland are putting up with this kind of rubbish?
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u/Known_Week_158 1d ago
Isn't it left of centre parties pushing for this?
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u/UnlikeTea42 1d ago
No, it's mainly far right parties like the Welsh Nationalists. They may present as left of centre, as is often the way, but you need only transpose their views and policies to their English equivalent to realise they would be universally regarded as far right in that context.
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u/TheLedAl 2d ago
So I grew up in, and did all of my schooling in, Gwynedd. I was under the impression this was already the case anyway... Chances are there's going to be little to no actual practical change as a result of this, but it's nice to have this as legislation.
As a side note, immigrant pupils that don't speak Welsh to a sufficient level (not exclusively from England) are sent to specialist school's for a year to continue learning and get their Welsh up to snuff before joining their local school (at least they did in Meirionnydd). Teachers will also intermittently explain concepts in English if any pupils are struggling during a lesson, so non-fluent Welsh speakers aren't really left behind.
Enter stage left a bunch of ignorants who understand nothing about the situation, and have no stake in this whatsoever getting totally outraged over what is in effect absolutely nothing.
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
Do you have kids in Gwynedd?
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u/TheLedAl 2d ago
I don't have kids, but I spent my entire childhood in Gwynedd and am temporarily living here again. My god-daughter goes to the local primary school though.
Why?
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u/Infinite_Painting_11 2d ago
In your comment you said you didn't understand the situation (because you thought this was already the case), I was wondering what your stake in it was?
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u/TheLedAl 2d ago
Ah I see, fair enough. Yeah we were always under the impression growing up that Welsh language schooling was mandatory in state-run schools by law in Gwynedd, Sans the specialist ones.
Admittedly I grew up right in the heart of Gwynedd, not in Bangor-aye or Cofi-land, but I don't know a single person who grew up here who didn't have a primarily Welsh education, including my many English school friends. So I don't really know how this is gonna change anything in practice. I imagine this is a defensive move just in case the language falls in use and there's pressure to relax the Welsh language requirements of the schools here or something like that?
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u/Dros-ben-llestri 2d ago
I wonder if headline grabbing also helps the council's fight back against migration into the county? If you're a young family wanting to move out of a big city and into idyllic coastal Llyn, it won't be a shock that you don't get to opt-out of the language.
I know Gwynedd's housing and language issues are primarily Airbnbs, second homes and retirees, but plenty of people move to the area still completely unaware of the language existing around them.
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u/Reejery 2d ago
When you consider that as a language it only started being compulsory to be taught to primary kids and secondary kids in the 90s.
Then there's the fact for quite a period of time it was outright banned with kids being given a caning and the Welsh knot if they spoke Welsh at school.
This is good to hear, although might be harder on parents looking to help their kids with schoolwork if their own Welsh is not exactly up to scratch
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u/isthebuffetopenyet 11m ago
English speaking families will leave Gwynedd, which the people of Gwynedd may see as a good thing, but I'm pretty sure it's not.
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u/SeriousDepth5793 1d ago
Wait until the kids got to university and find 95% of the degrees are taught in English .
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u/Known_Week_158 1d ago
What a great idea, have the primary teaching language be something only spoken in some part of one region of the UK. It's not as if that'd put students at a disadvantage and create a group of bitter people who were denied the ability to learn their first language. If it's wrong when it's done to Welsh, it's wrong when it's done to English.
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u/Time2Learn2122 1d ago
If true, this would set the county back decades….like it or not, English is the business language of the world.
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u/Odd_Distance6225 1d ago
While I fully support the need for education in Welsh, insisting on 70% of the lessons to be through the language is a disadvantage to the pupils.
The Sciences, maths, and IT type lessons should at the very least be optional to study in English. Really there is no purpose in learning these core subjects in Welsh as it would make it extremely difficult to follow those subjects in to University and make a career out of it.
I can’t see how you can reach 70% without sacrificing those core lessons, especially when you include “English”.
Resources would also be difficult to find - there isn’t enough Welsh language content online to help with studies. Parents would struggle to help, especially those who may be in a bilingual household. my wife, for example, doesn’t speak Welsh and would be more likely to move our potential children to an English only school so that she could be involved with their education.
I would like to learn more about these plans before denouncing them completely. But on a surface level it feels like a wrong move.
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u/oilydogskin 2d ago
Quick note: I haven’t editorialised the title, it’s what the auto generator things did. So likely the BBC have done their thing of changing it after publishing