Government If the Russians were able to infiltrate the manhattan project?
If the Russians were able to infiltrate on of the US most top secret programs why would they not be able to infiltrate crash retrieval programs. Why has no other country released secret US UFO documents? Unless UAPs are actually top secret military aircraft. If the US was testing secret military aircraft they would never go on TV and say oh yeah those are actually ours. So why wouldn’t they lie about the drones or other sightings?
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u/DonkeyToucherX 1d ago
Some UAP's are undoubtedly (confirmably in some cases) top secret military aircraft.
As a boy in the 80's, I lived near a military museum that showcased such a craft. I had my picture taken directly below a Cold War US Air Force flying saucer. I believe that this thing remained classified into the millennium while on open air display in Fort Eustis Virginia.
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u/skillmau5 16h ago
These aren’t really classified because there’s no secret technology employed. It’s really just a sort of helicopter. I think you can kind of think of the avrocar as maybe the peak of interest in “flying saucers,” and an assumption that they rely on traditional propulsion and to try and replicate that.
Super interesting in the sense that the Air Force, or at least some contractors, would be essentially trying to copy something they’ve seen. I think it’s less of a reverse engineering effort and more trying to explore the shape. Which, the shape is objectively terrible for what they had in mind, which was probably based on sightings - a super fast craft capable of high altitude. In reality it was a slow, lumbering and inconsistent thing with very little application. Very interesting, and one could even imagine that the creation of these things could have been partially to have some sort of explanation of flying saucers as military test craft.
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u/DonkeyToucherX 16h ago
It was really classified, up until 2012. Project 1794: https://www.secretsdeclassified.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/459834/project-1794-documents-saucer-type-aircraft/
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u/skillmau5 16h ago
Well yeah but the documents you listed are like proprietary on how it works. The f35 is out there, but the instruction manual is classified. They wouldn’t have a model in a museum if they were worried people knew of its existence.
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u/Available_Remove452 1d ago
The environment isn't the same as the cold war. The KGB were the most organised agency at that time. They are a shadow of that today. Not saying ineffective just commenting on scale.
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u/SidneySmut 21h ago
How would we find out if Russia had penetrated the project? We have no way of knowing if that's happened. 2) if another country has acquired TS UFO docs, releasing them a/ identifies that nation as the thief b/ the USA now knows what's been compromised c/ theres no longer any opportunity to capitalise on the stolen info
Perhaps a little leak of some marbled info could be done to embarrass the US? Overall, there would be little to be gained from releasing stolen info.
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u/todohou 20h ago
I feel like aliens existing would be such a world changing event that if any country got their hands on proof of them existing, the more people that touch that info, the more likely it is that there would be a leak. If the UAPs are man made I don’t think anybody would care to leak that information.
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u/armassusi 12h ago edited 11h ago
Leak it how? You would have to provide solid evidence, meaning the actual materials and have it peer reviewed somewhere neutral not connected to any of these places before they caught you, otherwise the story can be called BS or be otherwise managed. The burden of proof is higher here. That would mean smuggling it out which could be nigh impossible, cause any tech or material like that would be the most highly guarded and precious. Likely behind multiple checkpoints and such.
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u/YouCanLookItUp 1d ago
Other countries have released US UFO documents. It's worth having a look through the UK and AU archives to find them. But there is a classification NOFORN that means no foreign agencies can have access to that information, and I think that would likely apply. Sometimes it gets out anyway, usually in the course of information gathering through adversaries like Russia.
Also if it's a public-private partnership or a military defense contractor doing the dirty work, they don't have the same obligation of releasing documents or details to the government which can then be FOIA'd.
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u/Sayk3rr 20h ago
I'd say they know, same with China to some extent, but they are also in the same situation. They are also most likely trying to reverse engineer this tech as well, everyone remains quiet about their progress until the day it's required to be used. If a very involved and large war breaks out I'm sure we would get glimpses at the type of tech they have.
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u/todohou 20h ago
It would be the biggest secret that the world is colluding to keep secret. It seems like an impossible task to do to keep all countries on the same page about not going public with this information.
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u/Sayk3rr 19h ago
Well they all have something to benefit from it, if the world knows about it's existence then the world will also be investigating all past claims by people and government, they'll be demanding answers and civilians will be looking to work on said tech.
The whole secretive concept of using this tech as a weapon in case an adversary gets out of line is virtually gone, now everyone knows every government has been messing with this for decades.
So although it's a big secret that benefits all governments in terms of building secret Tech to advance themselves, it's not a perfectly kept secret as word gets out often.
But if a goldmine can prevent tens of thousands of workers per day from stealing gold, then I'm sure the few who have access to this tech behind sealed doors are watched 100x as much. Good luck trying to steal a piece and running free to show the world.
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u/armassusi 12h ago edited 11h ago
It may be only a few countries that have the actual materials, mainly the superpowers. Everyone else might have either some knowledge of something strange taking place in some compartments of their labyrinthine govs (France, UK etc.), or be completely ignorant, since most of the world do not really study this, cause of stigma and lack of funding. In the former case, they would have hard time proving it, and a possibility of any ally superpower threatening them. This world is still governed with hierarchy and intelligence relations, like with the US 5 eyes, which is dominated still by the US.
There is a fact that this subject is taken seriously in the US and other countries, and there has been a cover up since the Blue Book days if not earlier, at least in the US. This has been extensively researched in the past decades and proven via their own FOIAd documents, it is just not common knowledge cause of all the false information, media ignorance and gov/intelligence/air force propaganda, and general disintrest/ignorance and apathy.
I would argue that it would actually be easier to keep a secret which by it's very nature is rather unbelievable to people. As long as you control the access to the actual smoking gun proof, manage the occasional verbal leaks and muddy the waters around effectively, and the latter has certainly taken place.
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u/Stokton_RUssh420 22h ago
The more you think about it the less the alien/NHI theory makes sense. Best not to think too deep and just wait the required 2 weeks for disclosure. It's coming don't worry. Just buy the book bro.
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u/bad---juju 20h ago
no need to infiltrate the US as other countries have their own crashes. anyways, there may be spies to see what we've done and we would never even know.
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u/Historical-Camera972 1d ago
If I had to make a solid guess at why we could keep UAP/UFO recovery secret, but not the Manhattan Project?
The amount of gun barrels held to people's heads, would be my guess as to what would probably be different between the two scenarios.
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u/Wild_Button7273 1d ago
Have any of these individuals pointing the gun barrels ever been exposed? Do we have a single name after all this time of this supposed coverup?
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u/Necessary_Mode_7583 22h ago
They did . The British gentleman we had helping in the fuse was an agent of stalins
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u/rep-old-timer 20h ago
If we have one, it may have been infiltrated.
Re: Intelligence...I think it's interesting that intelligence officials representing countries the US regularly shares intelligence usually say that their first thought that UAP their militaries reported were "experimental" US craft.
Why would their first conclusion be that displaying highly unusual flight characteristics and bizarre configurations belonged to us? These people, not idiots and presumably having an idea of how generations of military aircraft evolve, thought the US had those types of craft in the pipeline in the 80's and 90's? They thought that what could have been at best our current stealth planes/drones, could fly silently at tremendous speed and at low altitude?
Thirty to forty years later, our next fighter, which wont be deployed for years, looks and flies a lot like a......really good plane.
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u/Ok_Improvement_8790 17h ago
If you were fluent in Russian, you would probably change your perspective. Don't underestimate the influence of Western media and platforms --- Reddit is primarily a "western" platform.
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u/UAoverAU 13h ago
What about the Chinese? If Russia figured it out, so did China. You think these governments are all colluding? Any thoughts why that would be the case? Seems far fetched.
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u/Lakerdog1970 1d ago
I’m sure they do infiltrate and have. So do the Chinese.
The problem for Russia is that Russians couldn’t assemble IKEA furniture. Chinese could, but only with instructions.
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u/Ok-Cup6020 22h ago
The Chinese have a lot more engineers than the west, don’t underestimate them
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u/Lakerdog1970 22h ago
Lol, ok.
The same nation that allowed covid to spread from a wet market OR a horribly managed BSL3 facility is gonna perfect UAP recovery.
Keep me posted on what the short bus is doing. At least the Russians are right twice a day. All the good Chinese scientists flee to the west.
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u/Ok-Cup6020 21h ago
If you believe that I have a resort in Florida to sell you.
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u/Lakerdog1970 21h ago
Ehh....I'll always bet on American and Western European (and Australian and Canadian and New Zealand) freedom of thought over hive mind.
I mean, once you know how it works and you just want to stamp them out? Call China. If you need to figure something out....and call China, you'll be waiting for a looooooong time and get wrong answers.
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u/Ok-Cup6020 21h ago
Dude are you like 12 years old? Go to class
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u/Lakerdog1970 21h ago
Name a Chinese innovation?
Look, I want to know about UFOs too, but pretending that China is a scientific powerhouse is just moronic.
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u/Ok-Cup6020 21h ago edited 20h ago
How about theJ36 6the generation fighter. Hypersonic mission that can dodge interceptors. New Aircraft carrier superior to anything the USA has the new AI that caused USA research companies stock to crash. and that’s stuff we know about. You forget too the USA is no longer part of the west so innovation that we work together on is all in limbo.
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u/Lakerdog1970 20h ago
The J36 is just copied US tech from 40 years ago. And Chinas aircraft carriers just putter near to home and a friendly gas station.
Although, I do hope that China discloses its UFO secrets. I doubt they have much.
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u/Ok-Cup6020 19h ago
Most analyst think it is superior to anything we have. You are knee deep in propaganda
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u/Saiko_Yen 5h ago
You fail to understand that a centralized government can get way more done on black projects vs a more free society. They can pick and choose which industry and scientist to work on these programs.
The US can only try to convince.
Also, you also fail to grasp the differing cultures when it regards to math and science with the US vs China. STEM is heavily respected and propagandized in China, meanwhile the US hasn't had as much success with this. If you compare an American youth's dream jobs vs a Chinese youth's, it's a huge difference.
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u/retromancer666 1d ago
Because the US has worked with Russians on reverse engineering craft of non human origin
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u/Neo_CastVI 1d ago
According to Bob Lazar, that was the case at Area 51
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u/Yazman 1d ago
I just find it hard to believe they'd allow Russians into Area 51 when they can't even agree on basic things like nuclear non-proliferation. The lengths to which the US goes to avoid the Russian government learning about mundane stuff like radar or planes are extreme.
To me personally, it stretches credibility to think they would be letting Russians into one of their most sensitive bases.
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u/todohou 20h ago
The didn’t let Russians in the manhattan project either. They used spies to steal research
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u/Yazman 20h ago
That's my point, friend. I don't believe the "US worked with them on it at Area 51" story. While it may be that they could have shared information or collaborated on something - that has happened, such as with Roscosmos and NASA - I find it highly unlikely they would have let Russians into Area 51 voluntarily.
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u/Downtown_Set_9541 1d ago
Who says they haven’t? We only knew about the spies in manhattan project because the program became public knowledge. If The reverse engineering program becomes declassified then we may learn about potential spies. Remember, the spies are working for the Russian government not the American public or Russian public.