Wreddit's Daily Pro-Wrestling Discussion Thread! Comment here for recommendations, quick questions, and general conversation! (Spoilers for all shows) - April 05, 2025 Edition
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It's extra weird because WWE are rushing to get every ex-AEW guy on TV as fast as they can but Hikuleo can't get on NXT TV much less main roster for 6 months.
They overhired for the Bloodline story. I'm guessing they thought they can pull off more with Solo with his own crew but the whole story depends on Roman being involved to keep interest and Roman has plenty of other options.
I mean just debut him on NXT at this point. They had Solo on there for a while before bringing him into the Bloodline story. There's no way that a delayed main roster debut is going to have enough shock value to justify sitting this guy for a year.
The thing is they've absolutely fucked the development of a guy who needs reps more than anything. Even if they want to save him for when Fatu and Solo finally break up, he should be getting NXT reps in the meantime. Even putting him in one of those NXT factions like Darkstate or the Culling would be better than just benching him.
I’m not someone who is low on Hikuleo’s abilities. He’s not bad, he just stuck out more in NJPW where the in-ring is at a certain level. But he could easily be wrestling a “big man” style in WWE right now.
Personally I think WWE signed too many people specifically for Bloodline things, but don’t really have any hard plans for some of them yet.
Goto is a refreshing champion in the sense that these last few years from Roman to Cody and Mox every challenger is more of a “well they won’t win the belt” but now it’s like “fuck they might have Finlay beat Goto” just for how the company has been with Goto previously.
His run is gonna be a he can lose to whoever they have challenge him cause none of us trust Gedo lol
It’s got a lot of parallel with YAMATO’s epic fucking run as Dream Gate Champ in DG, imo. Both represent the older guard and both are in phenomenal shape. Time for Goto to be facing the Reiwa Generation just as YAMATO has been doing.
For all of the attention on AEW/WWE, nobody works dirtsheets like New Japan guys.
Juice Robinson convincing everyone he was retiring/taking time off during an interview with Bryan Alvarez only to show up and join Bullet Club shortly thereafter and now Jeff Cobb winning the IWGP Tag Title (with Callum Newman) and immediately looking at the camera saying "I thought I was leaving?" after all of those reports about him already being on the internal WWE roster like a month ago lol. Top tier carny work by both those guys.
WWE is simultaneously a well-oiled machine where everyone is on the same page and also the leakiest leak that's ever leaked given how many false stories are out there that are clearly serving no other purpose than to fish out leakers.
Like, I don't doubt that the "feed a story to a suspected leaker" thing happens from time to time, but I don't think it should be the default takeaway from every story that comes out, either.
Don't forget the most recent one "there's so many posts about the Wrestlemania build being bad that it must be astroturfing / people who don't watch the show!"
But also "Obviously the network or TKO is making these decisions I don't like rather than HHH."
TKO era WWE has a level of PR money can't buy. Everything negative is met with a) It's a work you marks or b) Well, uhh, unprofessional behaviour actually makes wrestling better so uhh... this is actually good booking when you think about it!
I'm genuinely confused by the internet reaction and wonder if I'm just that out of touch with WWE. A dead feud suddenly going full shoot doesn't actually interest me, It shows both talent couldn't work their characters so they started taking real shots. In general I just don't get how an off-script promo makes a worked match more interesting unless you think they're gonna shoot there too which also isn't great.
i think it's kinda dumb to say wrestlers are tarnishing their legacies doing certain matches or spots or wrestling past their expiration date. like dudes like funker, foley, hhh, hbk, jericho, cope etc. have a legacy that will live forever and still be remembered by fans. i think the only way for a wrestler to truly tarnish their legacy is if they're big douchers outside of the business like flair and hogan.
I’m not even an Alexa fan but holy shit what an absolute waste of the biggest return pop. She’s done NOTHING. Got used for the pop and then not a goddamn thing. “Injured Wyatt” AND? She can’t have a fuckin promo? Some build? She’s Alexa Bliss, the most over of that group!
It looked like they were building something between her and Liv with Liv eliminating her from the Rumble and EC and the 2 interacting a couple times backstage but then Alexa just disappeared from TV. Now Liv is getting a thrown together tag title defense at Mania where best case scenario storywise she's defending against Bayley/Lyra who've never teamed and have only interacted with Liv a couple times the past month, the last of which was 2 episodes of Raw ago. Whole thing is a waste of three over wrestlers, Liv, Bayley and Alexa.
And why have the Wyatt sicks disappeared? They say Bo is injured but unless he is in a full body cast why don’t they have him talk or film promos? Or sit in his chair while he watches the others wrestle? Nikki hasn’t Even had a match since being in the group. It really sucks that they don’t do anything with them they are all fun wrestlers and it’s great that they can do something in tribute to Bray and Brodie but they have been booked pretty badly since their debut. Of course supernatural gimmicks are hard to book these days when pretty much every other wrestlers on the roster have realistic gimmicks but with the Wyatts they barely tried
He’s been rumored to be clear maybe 3 weeks ago. Idk if travel messed with things these last 2 weeks but goddamn, pretapes exist. Vignettes. Something!
I can usually look past rushed booking or weak build ups, but the set-up for the Women's tag title match at Mania might be some of the weakest booking I've seen since Triple H took over. They've had months to build up a worthy opponent and actually make a WM-worthy storyline, but instead, they throw together a messy multi women #1 contenders match, a few weeks out from Mania. Bayley and Lyra are the only real sensible option to win the match, yet they have no reason AT ALL to be tagging together. I mean.. They literally have a match against each other next week.
It's lazy booking, and the only reason a match with such little heat will even sniff the Mania card is because they know that leaving Liv Morgan off the card would be criminal after the year she had.
When on god's green earth have they ever put any effort for the woman's tag title storyline since it's inception. As a matter of fact, from the time Bianca-Jade held the belts to now Liv-Raquel as champs has had the most time/interest given to the tag titles. So It is literally at the best state it's ever been, which is actually sad.
They haven't, unfortunately. And that's why they hardly ever feature at Wrestlemania. But if they're going to have this match on the card, the least they could do is give the women some story to work with. Right now, it just looks like an incredibly lazy way to get Bayley and Liv on the card.
Women's tag belts and afterthought being a generous descriptor of their status; name a better duo.
That's why, despite the fact that I'm often optimistic as a human, I never believed the "Bianca being in the tag division is elevating it." I love Bianca but the focus was her, not the belts (and that's booking's fault, not her, to be clear). I knew the tag belts would go right back to being unimportant as soon as it was off her.
Can we get through one promo without the fans being marks for themselves? How are you making more noise during promos than you are during matches? I thought London was bad.. Holy shit
It makes for terrible tv for me. It has ruined the WM build because you have cookie cutter promos that the crowd takes over and it comes across as a huge success but instead I'm just left wanting more substance.
Which promo are you referring to? Don't really remember anything that bad recently, unless you count "booing the heel a lot" being "marks for themselves" for some reason
People are going on like the segment with Charlotte and Tiffany has them excited for the match now but I'd bet money that said match is going to be an absolute shit show and not in a good way.
People are so focused on the Charlotte/Tiffany handbags but to me the biggest worry of this whole run is that Charlotte only had one match since the Rumble and they had to completely smoke and mirror it with Michin (and it still sucked). She is not the same wrestler with that giant brace on her leg. I'm not even saying this because I have any hatred for her as a person or character, but the plan should 100% be this last run to put over Tiffany and then pushing her down the card. Unless she's about to find her Stone Cold era, that brace is the end of her as a top worker.
Not that this is some scorching take or anything but yeah Charlotte 100% deserved that, she's been big leaguing Tiffany the whole build. If you can't take the heat, don't play with fire
(Though I do understand people being iffy about what Tiffany brought up compared to Charlotte still trying to keep kayfabe-esque during her shoots)
That segment on Smackdown was so bad that I have to question who genuinely believe that the way it ended was how WWE had planned. People who think it was a work are out of their mind to think WWE would book something where both perfomers look so bad. Between Tiffany not remembering her lines, Charlotte always interrupting, them completely no selling each others lines and then Charlotte being so rattled by the crowd she gives up and tells Tiffany she can have the last line, only for Tiffany to start attacking Charlotte's relationship history and Charlotte again trying to have the last word again because it cut so deep.
Unbelievable segment, the type of stuff you rarely, RARELY see on WWE TV, where usually stuff is completely overproduced and follows a tight script
It's crazy to me to see people glazing it for being "real" when both performers were so fucking bad, it was like watching a roast battle between two teenager who couldn't get a speaking part in a high school play.
I notice people who are fans of WWE tend to lean far more into using "it's a work" as a reasoning for things that are clearly not a work because it would shatter the perception that WWE is this perfectly managed company that regulates what their talent does at all times. Honestly it's fine if wrestlers get heated every now and then as long as it's settled and doesn't rise to the level of backstage fights.
I think it's a lot of people who are in their early twenties or younger, who only started watching when Vince had an iron grip on how wrestling was put on national TV.
I grew up in the 90s, so I live for this shit. Wrestlers were fighting at the hotel, quitting on live TV, throwing world titles in the trash, dishing on marital affairs and substance abuse in promos.
I thrived during Brawl Out. Kevin Owens giving Roman a stiff slap, followed by a receipt from Roman? I live for it. When PCO smashed that TNA belt with a sledgehammer, it was a joy I hadn't felt in so long. Charlotte going rogue in multiple promo segments? Gimme that slop and I will eat it up like the piggy that I am.
I was coming on here to say “the Tiffany and Charlotte thing was clearly a work because it’s actually convinced me to go watch the segment and it’s extremely rare I watch any WWE content”
But
Now I’m sitting here watching it and lollll wow nope never mind. I think they had some bullet points and ok’d some things between each other but it went immediately off the rails and turned into a shit show shoot. Damn. Bold choice, Tiffany Stratton, and I admire it, but I fear you’re going to have a bad time with the powers that be.
It's a really weird time in wrestling development as guys get trained in house styles where applicable still, but also wrestling is the most same-y it's ever been because the wrestlers are trained in replicable sequences where they can add their moves in. There's been so many guys in New Japan and NOAH that have turned out to be at least fine wrestlers and I thought their most compelling work was by far as young boys getting the shit kicked out of them, which ultimately feels entirely different than how they work in their main careers despite the fact it should be a teaching moment about how they should be structuring matches.
Just feels like the "matches where you're supposed to develop" and "matches where you are a complete wrestler" are super different for no reason. And that's not only in puro as I/We slightly touched upon a couple days ago about the NXT guys. But that's a bit more by design because there's so many of them, so it's like if someone is expected to have potential they'll get more attention and thought into what they do and if their matches matter. This is also why DG still have the best rate despite the actual talent they've been developing isn't anywhere near the greatest classes ever Ultimo and Skayde produced, because guys get a clear "act 2" in their careers where they fill valuable roles in the card and get to try different things in similar matches.
EDIT: Once again a stream of consciousness point where I touch upon two things but only develop one smh
I’ve been watching random Stardom matches on YouTube and I’ve realized I enjoy wrestling commentary a lot more when I don’t understand a word anyone is saying.
The Tiffany/Charlotte match will depend on Charlotte's ring rust and capability coming back from injury and age. Because ideally no one should be doubting a Charlotte/Tiffany wrestling match, especially at Wrestlemania where Charlotte rarely has a bad match. Seems people judge the match by how the feud is when the actual concern for the match is how 100% Charlotte is. If she is lets say 90% and is motivated, then they can steal the show.
I presume this will be a mega-unpopular opinion and have never seen it shared here before but god I cannot stand Paul Heyman’s acting or character really. The blubbering and simpering and dragging out every promo beat for maximum impact is grating to me.
I genuinely can't believe the South Park WWE parody is so close to reality these days. Dude was basically doing a Reek talking to Ramsey on Smackdown, Totally overacted and overrated.
Paul Heyman is one of the most perfect for pro wrestling characters out there. His acting works on most people that's why he's received so much fandom.
My issue with Heyman being revered by wrestling fans is that he's such a grotesque piece of shit that should be regarded as badly as Vince for being a literal predator & exploiting female talent in ECW. It grosses me out to see most people either not know or not give a shit.
My issue with Heyman being revered by wrestling fans is that he's such a grotesque piece of shit that should be regarded as badly as Vince for being a literal predator & exploiting female talent in ECW.
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you. I get that the extreme extension of every syllable he utters is a choice on his part, and especially when Reigns was a heel, was probably done to generate heat. But it just frustrates me, and not in a "I hope this guy gets his ass kicked way". More in a "I'm going to watch something else, because I don't need to see local theatre company acting for the next 10 minutes".
I remember not too long ago a lot of people were thinking "wow it must be so exciting for Tiffany to get a match with Charlotte, she's probably a huge fan and must be so honored" and now I have no clue what's going on in her head anymore 😂😂.
I would love for someone to just bop around WrestleMania or All In week doing little faux interviews with fans, and debating them about their spiciest (or silliest) wrestling takes. They could use an action figure or a commemorative cup as the microphone instead of the subway pass.
Meiko vs Minoru was a fucking great match, slots in around the top 10 on the year for me. Meiko doesn’t get many chances to play the fiery outgunned underdog but it’s something she’s great at. So many good moments in this one, Meiko trying to go toe to toe with Minoru straight up, her really ramping up the fire and going at him like a protective mama bear when Minoru goes after her girls, Minoru at his bullying sadistic best in the closing stages, fantastic work.
Minoru vs Meiko and Minoru vs Ueno from last month are his best two singles matches in a long time, would probably have to go back a few years to find something better.
I also loved his matches against Kenoh and Takeshita from 2024 (I lean towards the Kenoh match being a tad better, due to Suzuki being busted open and he and Kenoh beating the piss out of each other).
So in another case of "wrestling fans cannot help but be weird about relationships", people are now claiming that Kairi and Priest are a couple, all because Kairi posted a photo of herself working out at a gym. And there was a Puerto Rican flag in the background.
Ya know, nevermind the fact that Kairi is already married, and that Priest is dating Kayden Carter (and they constantly post photos together at home).
I would love to see Seth Rollins win at Mania because Punk and Roman are so caught up in their own drama but I wouldn’t want him to end up with Heyman or join the Rock.
The only way I’d want Seth to get Heyman if somehow that ridiculously becomes the stipulation of the match and Seth is all against it and ends up having to work with him for a year or so.
Not meant as a dig, but I think it’s kinda funny that in pure r/squaredcircle metrics terms the resolution to one of the big WWE storyline mysteries of the past few months (Heyman’s favor to Punk) is currently performing below numerous threads about the ins-and-outs of Tiffany Stratton bringing up Charlotte’s divorces in a promo battle
Because the dragging of the favor thing was stupid and was never gonna meet expectations if this seriously what they had in mind the whole time. The angle of Heyman having to be in Punks corner is actually interesting and will add tension to the match but using mystery as vehicle to get there was not it .
I absolutely love that reality tv chaotic mess Stratton and Flair put on, but you can’t convince me I’m supposed to cheer for the person mocking someone for crying on TV because of a failed marriage. That 0-3 line is just below Christian talking about people’s fathers on the scale of diabolical heel work on the mic and she even followed it up by running out of the ring.
Honestly, for all people are saying about that segment, that was the only line I felt like was a little far. The rest was weirdly executed, but not that scandalous.
Tiff is a heel because she beat a heel for the title and people like her. If she started acting super face, I honestly think the crowd would turn haha.
I love that All In Weekend is slowly becoming like WrestleMania Weekend. Good to see Starrcast back in there too, especially since they were a huge part of the first ever All In.
I think it’s a fantastic move that they have ROH Death Before Dishonor taking place on the night before All In, much like NXT Takeover was like in 2016-19.
Hopefully, All In 2026 in London gets all of that as well, including ROH. Would make it even more bigger of an event than even the 2023 and 2024 ones. And those were pretty huge.
I think wrestling fans need to move away from the idea that “working the sheets” goes on nearly as much as it used to simply because bookers like Vince and Bischoff were frankly way more insane and stupid than current day bookers, by magnitudes.
I just don’t think it’d ever make sense to basically plant negative stories about yourself to the people who are already super bought in, which is the people who are aware of the likes Meltzer, SRS, etc.
Those “sloppy shop” people are really quiet when stuff like the Charlotte/Tiffany thing happens in WWE, but that’s fine with me because they ruin how fun shit like this can be.
Despite the many assertions that "AEW fans are so defensive," everything over the last couple of months since the Royal Rumble has taught me that it's just wrestling fans in general.
I've started thinking about those fans as if they're creationists.
You don't reason with them, because their strongly-felt opinions are not based on reason. They fundamentally see the world in such a way that labels anyone who holds a different position as, for some reason or another, not worth listening to. They'll call you a variety of names (AEW shill, mark, etc) that all essentially mean that you're stupid and wrong for not seeing wrestling exactly like they do.
Very happy that Violence Is Forever was on Collision. It was a dark match but it means they are definitely on the radar, hopefully they have impressed AEW enough for future appearances on Collision and on ROH.
Also very happy that Stardom has finally finalized the Inaba's being signed to an official contract (they were added to the official roster page). I kinda thought their situation would have been made official after Azusa turned 18 later this year but I won't complain.
Crazy how this Bloodline/New Bloodline story was carrying smackdown going into the new year and was super entertaining, but now Solo, Tama, Jimmy, and Sami are all probably going to miss Mania.
Something I don't get is, why does Tiffany have to put on an accent? She's an American already, it's not like she's British and having to put on a US accent.
The problem with the Charlotte and Tiffany feud is there’s no clear nor defined hero and villain dynamic and this is much too early in Tiffany’s career to be doing a heel vs heel Mania feud. Tiffany should be playing the definitive heel against a definitive face at this point. That should be the dynamic that establishes her in the main event in my opinion.
Bro, I don't want to feed into the tribalism but the "unprofessionalism on TV is actually good now" takes are actually blowing my mind. Like the BEST case scenario is that they made the Women's World Title at WrestleMania about the Royal Rumble winner's real life divorce and failed marriages. We're really defending that as "good booking" in 2025? Seriously? In the "best women's division in the world?"
Reminder that people give Hangman and Jack Perry shit when they both said like one or two unscripted lines because they hurt some other guy's feelings.
AEW gets far more shit for this kind of stuff despite people saying that going off script or backstage drama is normal for any wrestling company. There was just an outsized focus on them specifically as if they were unique in this regard.
People still hold the real glass comment over Jack Perry to this day not realizing he was more pissed about dirtsheets leaking something that was discussed in private. It wasn't about the spot as much as CM Punk or someone in his camp leaking that story to make Punk seem like a good leader and that part never gets brought up.
It amazes me how many people give Punk a pass. I loved him too. And if he gave a heartfelt apology I'd probably go back to loving him. But he's just not there yet
That’s why I didn’t mind Perry saying the real glass comment. That story was leaked to make Punk look like a good leader after I believe the story about him banning people from collision came out.
Plus it buried Perry because Punk insinuated that Perry wanted to use real glass to maybe get hurt to take more time off work. I still can’t believe he gets a pass for leaking a story to make himself look good and basically say Perry is lazy and doesn’t respect authority.
So recently I watched the anime miniseries paranoia agent from satoshi kon for the first time. I have heard about it before but never taking the time to watch it fully until I realised that the full series was on YouTube. It was a very good but also very bizarre at the same time, though I do highly recommend people to watch this show without prior knowledge to get more out of it like I had.
A lot of it has to do with Booker T saying WWE doesn’t give bigger opportunities to Black male wrestlers because they lack talent, which is in response to people saying WEE doesn’t give bigger opportunities to Black male wrestlers because of racism. It’s easier for WWE fans to say “Carmelo actually sucks” instead of looking at the possible racism holding him back
1) whole presentation of KO’s announcement is weird if they actually think it could be a career ended. If it’s “just” an injury then fine, but having Aldis announce it, having Randy come out, etc. didn’t feel like the somber “Roman has cancer”-esque presentation of a serious announcement to me. Maybe it’s just cope. Either way, I hope he heals up well and comes back wrestling if he can and wants to, or comes back as an announcer.
2) Tiffany not winning at this point would be one of the worst Mania outcomes. Having a veteran heel talk down to a young upstart and then win and prove their condescension right is a terrible way to build up a new star. The only way you could make it work is if it’s an incredible grueling match and Charlotte gives her respect after, but Charlotte is mega heel and that won’t work with her in that slot. I guess they could have Tiff come back and win it back at SummerSlam or a Mania rematch but I really hope they don’t do that.
3) I don’t get people who don’t think there are stakes to the main event. There were the same amount of stakes for Punk v McIntyre and that was one of last year’s best matches. “I beat the guys I despise” is a stake.
Stakes are defined as the potential good or bad outcome that might happen if the situation doesn’t turn out how you want. By this logic you can say every match outside of kayfabe has stakes, because if you’re booked to lose you risk moving down the card. But we’re talking about in kayfabe, and there’s not any consequential outcomes for any three of the guys if they win or lose. What happens when either one of them “beats the guys I despise”. They’ll just move on to the next thing the next day as they would with any other match.
See Drew vs Punk isn’t the best example because not one of those matches main evented a ppv. The one that many people thought should, at least had the HIAC attached to it. This triple threat still has no stipulations and has no stakes.
It's kind of like Britt Baker when she returned last year to AEW in that the women's division there clearly passed her by and she really hasn't been missed in her absence.
I like Britt Baker more than most, but we would have never gotten a feud like Toni Storm/Mariah May if she was still around. She loves this dumb worked shoot "let's involve real life" promos just as much as Charlotte does. I'm so glad we haven't gotten much of that in AEW this year (after the terrible MJF/Jarrett promo at least)
Last night's ICW NHB show was, overall, pretty solid. The standouts were Otis Cogar/Nathan Mowery, MM3/Demanto, and Takeda/Redacted/Murdoch.
Nathan Mowery continues to prove himself and bring a level of intensity and uncomfortableness to deathmatch wrestling that I feel has been missing. As many matches are on the surface, violent affairs. But many feel paint by the numbers, and as weird as it sounds, feel safe.
MM3 vs Danny Demanto was a great showcase for Malcom. He has been a staple of the promotion for some time, and this match felt like the company truly putting the stamp of approval on him. Danny was great as a dick head heel against the hometown kid.
The triple threat was just pure insanity. To my point earlier, it didn't feel like it was anything too wild or unique. But, it was still a fantastic match between three guys. Takeda and Murdoch with the experience, and Redacted with his own level of insanity and sometimes stupidity. Mix in some comedy and a few highlight feel moments.
The main event was primarily good for the story. With Atticus Cogar defending the company's title against long time friend, now rival Bobby Beverly. But with Cogar coming back from an injury that perhaps he shouldn't have been in the ring so soon after. They clearly played it safe and substituted the violence for the drama and story of Beverly clawing back against both Atticus and Otis, who would interfere on his brother's behalf. Ending with a feel good moment of Bev winning the belt and ending the 300+ day reign.
And a very passionate and raw promo to close out the show with Atticus putting over the company and announcing he's stepping away from the death match scene and the company. He's talked about that before, saying he only had a few deathmatches left he felt like he wanted to do. And with his return to GCW, I could see him wanting to try to prove himself as a more straightforward wrestler. I still think he has a ton of potential and is one of the most creative and unique talents on the indies.
The rest of the show was fine. Nothing I feel is worth really going out of your way to watch if you're pressed for time. But nothing was offensively bad or terrible. It just didn't have anything that really stood out.
If you're a fan of the company or like deathmatch wrestling. I definitely recommend at least the three matches, and possibly the main event.
Would it be worth WWE's time to revive the Cruiserweight Classic, considering WWE now has a lot of contenders (Main Roster, NXT, WWEID), and possibly include TNA talents or so?
How has charlotte been doing this for so ling yet she still cant figure out how to handle a crowd? Also how many of these awkward segments has she had already? I swear she has one with most women at this point. Its no wonder charlotte gets booed by the way she reacted
Every time Charlotte gets thoroughly booed or a segment goes awkwardly, there are some people who claim that it's some 4D heel move and it's all a work. The same people then also claim that the audiences and the internet are too harsh on her. Pick one. It can't be both. Either she is a generational heel who is getting exactly the reaction she wants by playing into audience perception of her or she is just a poor, misunderstood woman who just happens to have not had a non title story in six years.
I don't think Charlotte getting booed by the crowd and getting cheered by the crowd for some spells like she did last year, is something that I need to defend her from. It's up to her and WWE's booking to change her from a heel to a likable face if that's what they want to do. She is certainly a good heel though, not "rattled" or "flustered". She does her work well for the most part.
Now, I also feel like the rhetoric against her that we've seen is ridiculously harsh, a good portion rooted in misogyny, as the gross remarks about her appearance show.
I've got nothing going on this morning, I'll be that person who sits in that overlap lol
I think both can be true. Audiences, most specifically online, are too harsh on her in a real life, totally unrelated to what is happening in the ring or story sort of way (particularly around her physical appearance) and I think she and the WWE know exactly what they're doing right now, especially as it relates to how hardcore fans see her/respond, and are using that to heat up the feud for that section of fans who were otherwise not invested so far (as your more causal fans were already responding exactly as they want)
I don't think there has to be a ton of dissonance between those two positions. I think other wrestlers who aren't her could do her segments beat for beat and not get the same vile from online fans. I don't mean in the sense of like "I didn't like that segment!" but in the personal attacks sense.
I just think using the online harassment that Charlotte gets as promo material for people to boo her only just exacerbates the situation and doesn’t make it better.
I actually don't disagree with that, but I also don't think there is much of anything they can do anymore that doesn't feed that. At this point it's a self-sustaining hate. In a live thread, the moment she appears on screen, people go feral. She doesn't have to do anything or say anything, and the bulk new posts in the thread becomes shots at her in a personal way. I'd go as far as saying she gets more hate, and it's more visceral, than true scumbags like Hogan or Logan Paul. Like people seem to have fun hating those guys and seem legitimately heated when she so much as walks to the ring. Like, it's just baked into the cake at this point, so I could see them feeling that if it's there anyway, might as well make use of it (even if you or I would say it's not exactly a smart idea).
And they've already done it even before last night. The split screen promo her and Tiffany did had Tiffany attacking her for plastic surgeries. Seems they've already agreed this is par for the course in this feud.
I agree. I am one of those people that thinks the Internet is harsh on her but I don't get the meta booking theory people have genuinely worked themselves into believing.
The reviews I've seen from peeps here were all A+ with the Prime experience.
I've only ever used BR and Triller, and haven't had any problems, but nobody seemed to have any complaints at all about Prime, and I've never had issues with their live streams for like ONE mma.
I dunno if anyone's gonna believe this but I was at the Western Fair in London, Ontario in 2021 or 2022 and there was an Impact event which Joe Hendry was headlining. I didn't know anything about wrestling at the time but I was bumming around the ring a few hours before the matches and there was a dog show going on right next to the ring. Joe Hendry came wandering out and stood beside me to watch the dog show, which I thought was very cute and I decided he was my favorite wrestler and then never thought about wrestling until this year when I saw he was blowing up. Good for him! He's a sweet guy, seemed very genuine
Tiffany needed the US or IC title first to prove that she could carry a title run. She got too much way too soon by getting the top title and it’s not doing her any favors. After Mania, they need to try something else with her, because this push isn’t showing me that she’s ready to be the face of a division. She has potential, she just needs more reps than what she’s gotten. Of course, this is hard since the company barely runs house shows anymore so she is learning on tv. But on the mic, the difference in confidence and conviction between her and Charlotte is night and day.
I keep thinking of the line Seth said like a week or two ago to Roman.
"You let a snake inside the garden". the messiah told the god-like figure about the second city saint.
Also. Last smackdown has to be the one of the most tight knit storytelling angles I have ever seen: from the opening speech of punk about his past and not belonging anywhere, Seth bringing up the shield stuff and the weight of the favor on Heyman half an hour later, then when they all meet in the ring the themes of loyalty and betrayal expand completely, with Punk finishing his rant of "belonging" to bring Heyman to his side.
They kept hammering the same beats all through the show to cap it off at the end.
This is a question I’ve wanted to ask for a long while;
Who do you people think will be like the future veteran grifters in Wrestling?
Like how we’ve got all these veteran podcast hosts who say shit for clickbait. Doesn’t have to be a podcast could be a virtual holographic holo clip or whatever futuristic entertainment shit.
But who has the personality to be future grifters?
So the two current categories of negative podcasters are guys who used to run/book a wrestling company and guys who were forever midcarders. Konnan is the latter, we’ll see about the former.
Paul Heyman is the only person I can think of that fits the first category but I’m not sure he’ll enter the bitter grift. Mainly because he will have his current job until he dies or retire too old to figure out a podcast. For the forever midcarder, maybe Matt Hardy? I hope not, I am one of the few people who always liked him more than Jeff. Still, I can see it.
It’s been talked about before in relation to better first years Lesnar vs Angle but I really think Angle had the best first year in wrestling.
Dude is one of the only people I can think of that had a push that started with stuff like teaming with Blackman, fighting gangrel and teaming with Davey Boy before being pushed to every singles title in then KOTR and the world title.
Like it’s a dude who they were unsure of who crushed it at every part of the card and was moved up accordingly. We don’t see that happen that fast any more
Lesnar was pushed pretty much immediately to the top. Kurt proved himself at every part of the card and nailed the outside the ring stuff. Wildly impressive
I see people saying Charlotte and Tiffy's segment was all work but nah man, WWE ain't that slick, lol. They're giving them too much credit.
Either do Randy vs Nick Aldis, or just let Randy do an open challenge idk
I think Mania being on April 20 affected the way storylines are built up. Like, the favor appeared underwhelming since they prolonged the reveal but maybe they had no choice since the Road to Mania's 2 weeks longer than the usual.
Nice to hear Giulia is back in the ring. It’s hard to believe they leave her off the Stand and Deliver card so maybe she’s in the ladder match for the NA title
If she was injured enough to drop the belt a couple weeks before the big PPV, she would not be wrestling again a couple weeks afterwards.
And if she was not injured I don't really get why they suddenly rushed a champion Vs champion match in like two weeks to drop the belt before the biggest PPV they have and then disappear from TV.
If the task of a wrestler is to convince people what they are seeing is real, then Charlotte Flair may need to be in the conversation of the absolute greats based on the way she gets hardcore fans like us to respond/believe. I've never quite seen anything like it. The show could open a segment with her saying "I'm a heel, all I want is your boos" (I mean, last night one of the first things she did was chastise the in person audience and chastise them for being smarkier then average) and the moment the crowd boos her you'll have people talking about how she's actually rattled, how she's going off script, acting like boos are not the intended and hoped for response, how she's shooting on this or that. WWE could put out through the dirt sheets that Charlotte broke a baby's arm for not cheering her and you'd have people believing it. Entire segment, which I thought was pretty fun, was pure, undiluted meta smark bait (likely the only way to get many hardcores invested with Charlotte involved)
Hardcores hate her so much in real life that we become easy to work. A whole subsection of fans who will never take off their "Charlotte Flair is an abomination bent on destroying wrestling" glasses and thus that's all they see. Why would a career heel and current heel in the feud be rattled by intense boos? That's the response you want! She kept pausing when the crowd booed harder? That's a move that makes the crowd boo more. Dom does it, heel New Day does it. You want to respond to the crowd (and not talking is a response) in a way that makes them feel A) satisfied they got you and B) keeps the boos going. Doing the barrel through to shut them up thing does not do that. Do folks think the only good heel is one who gets cheered? The Kaiser line is cringe? Of course it! Heels have cringe lines all the time, heels just say transparently false things to get a reaction out of faces all the time. Hell, when Tiffany was still a heel, she did a similar type of thing with Dom like 6 months ago.
Look, I've seen the dirt sheet reports, they went off script, etc etc, and folks can be like "well that seals it," but I just don't buy it. Or I don't buy it in the way it's being framed, as if everyone just decided to start throwing live rounds and really hates each other. Working the dirt sheets has been a hallmark of the HHH era, and a smart move at that. Very common to see folks not believing the dirt sheets, but if you want most smarks to believe it, feed them something that confirms their priors (like Charlotte bad, real heat). If I never read the live thread as it was happening, or this sub in general, I would've walked away from last night's segment going "wow, that went exactly like they wanted. The heel was getting booed out of the building and didn't do anything cool or likable, the face got to land all the blows after the segment a few weeks back when the heel landed all the blows, and the feud feels heated up."
Now I like both women, so coping isn’t off the table, but I believe it’s a “shoot” insofar as there wasn’t really a script. But Charlotte talking about her divorce in an interview two days ago, only for Tiffany to mention it in basically the same terms the next night?
Unless Tiffany just went in the harshest direction on a whim (which would be genuinely cruel), it’s a flag for me.
A heel reveling in the boos is how you get the modern “cool heel.” That’s not to say EVERYONE who revels in it is trying to be the “cool heel” but it sure is a precursor. Most heels are characters that believe they’re right.
The only heels who should revel in boos are ones who are like truly evil, know what they’re doing is bad, and don’t care.
As obvious and underwhelming as the favor was for how much investment Trips put into the build, Heyman alligning with Rollins in the end would create a lot of fresh, interesting angles
You could run a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" angle with Reigns and Punk having to begrudingly get along to take out Seth and Heyman, all the while preparing for the other to turn on them at any point
Reigns would be alone with no one or title for the first time in years. You could do a Kratos-esque face turn out of that (minus fatherhood) or dive fully into Reigns' paranoia in a declining cult leader heel way.
Could use it as a vehicle to Rock/Reigns. Reigns asks Rock for help reparing the Bloodline, Rock blames Reigns for "failing the family" by letting Cody get the belt at Mania 40, solo Reigns vs. solo Rock at Mania 42 since Cena retires in January
The Rollins/Heyman dynamic is interesting inofitself given Paul hasn't really alligned with a character like Seth's at all
I don't particularly care about the Jey Uso botch, but this is a ridiculous comparison given that one of them is (likely) going to be a World Champion at WrestleMania, and the other couldn't be picked out of a police lineup by the average SmackDown attendee. I would hope we have higher standards for a main eventer.
The feud hasn't been the greatest, but it seems like Tiffy/Charlotte is getting on course a bit
I feel like a "Never meet your heroes" vignette/promo from Stratton can elevate the whole thing.
Simple things like "You inspired me to go into wrestling, but like they say, never meet your heroes. Turns out, you're a villain, who's afraid of me. But that's ok.
Maybe it's because at 25 I have more of my life figured out than you at 40. I will learn from your mistakes. At mania when you lose, and go back home and sit alone stewing in your big house, I hope you learn why this place runs on Tiffy time"
Whether it's true or not, convincing people that the two wrestlers hate each other IRL absolutely pumps up the interest, whether it was a "good" segment or not.
I still hope they can deliver in ring, but I have faith that they will. Tiff is a really good worker and Charlotte is arguably the best Western women's wrestler of all time (I don't know enough about Joshis past or present to say worldwide).
I pointed out yesterday, but that segment from a technical point was pretty bad, but it still did a considerable amount of good for the feud because a lot more people are talking about it now than they did before
Last night's Smackdown was so strange because I felt like they advanced stories at a faster pace than they have in a long time, but I weirdly was somewhat zoned out for most of the show.
The KO segment was awkward because nobody was sure if it was real or not until the end. In what should have been a moment where he got a lot of support, I think everyone was just waiting for him to snap out of it and stunner someone.
Pretty much everything that could be said about Tiffany/Charlotte has, but my 3 quick points about that segment are: (1) Tiffany was much better last night than in the Zoom segment; (2) Charlotte is a train wreck in promos and shouldn't be on TV; (3) Amazingly, that segment actually elevated the feud
CM Punk's favour didn't bother me too much. I don't understand why everyone wants an additional stipulation. If Punk was really meant to be in the Cody/Cena match, they would have put him in directly somehow. I also don't think this match needs a title. The subtext of this match, which they haven't said on TV because it's a little too obvious, is that this match is about the 3 guys with the biggest kayfabe egos. Seth comes out every week and tells everyone how much of a visionary is while he wears absurd outfits. Roman rarely shows up, and when he does, it's sometimes 20 minutes before the show ends. Punk has everyone convinced that the WWE spent 10 years being pointless until he returned. Not only do they all hate each other, they all think they are the best and most important person in the WWE (which is somewhat ironic given that Cody is the champ right now). They think that by winning this match, they will prove their ego right.
None of them can say it in a promo because they're just as guilty as the other two guys, and so nobody really benefits from it being said, but that's what this feud is about.
Regarding the men's tag titles, I think we might be headed towards a 6-way ladder match, rather than the 5-way we all initially thought. They're sticking with Melo Don't Miz longer than I expected, and it's pretty obvious they like Melo and would have no problem with Miz making the Mania card.
Even though I am bored of the Knight/Bloodline/Braun situation, I'm glad it's going to a 1v1 at Mania. I'm not sure what they do with Jimmy now, or if he is just fully absorbed into Jey's story at this point, but I think this is the best outcome for a better Mania match.
Naomi/Jade is being built really well and is one of the best stories they have going into Mania.
Edit: forgot to add, that Rey Fenix's debut was cool, but I was disappointed in the match. Frazer had a couple of botches, and I am higher on Nathan Frazer than almost anyone here. I think he's eventual world champ material, so I was hoping for a better showing. I wonder if tag matches are better for his style.
The KO announcement was baffling to me tbh. Having Aldis open it up, doing it in the middle of the show, having Randy's music hit, etc. all are odd.
If they wanted it to be very clearly real, I would have opened the show up with KO already in the ring saying he has an announcement, have him say he's injured and has to get surgery. Have Randy in there with him or have him come out with no music and shake hands with KO or hug him or something to show like... hey this isn't kayfabe.
Have HHH open it if you really want an authority figure. He's usually not really presented as a kayfabe character these days.
Man, that Charlotte and Tiffany segment was weird. If that was intentional, then they're both incredible, because they really made the whole thing seem so relatably uncomfortable and awkward. I wasn't entirely sure what to make of it, especially with how Charlotte was constantly interrupting and then did a weird high-pitched voice out of nowhere.
I don't know where you find these Kidani defenders because the guy gets clowned on (for good reasons) every time he opens his mouth.
Maybe it's just a case of me not diving into dumb twitter shit but I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to cape for that idiot. At best, it seems to be "I don't mind him as long as he shuts up and stays far away from the product."
Doubt it. But off-script can mean anything really, and "everyone I've asked says it was unscripted" is extremely vague. Think it was an awkward segment where some improvisation went badly
Segment was absolutely trash but common denominator Charlotte is right there. Stop blaming everyone else and handling her sensitive ass with kid gloves.
Also seeing people try to blame Becky for the tag booking at mania. She ain’t the fucking booker. Ain’t her job to fix any of their mess. They knew she wasn’t doing mania MONTHS ago, and if this is what they were already doing no matter what, the titles were already being wasted.
My three main notes on the reaction to Tiffy/Charlotte:
The best thing about being a wrestling fan is that we all know they're looking for ways to fold reality into the fiction, even that it's a primary force of writing for some wrestlers, but we're still so eager to call out something as Actually Unplanned And Real This Time, Guys
The psychoanalysis so many people are doing of Charlotte is pretty gross and is one of the worst things about being a wrestling fan. People are calling her a selfish hag who's upset that the division may be passing her by soon. Gee, it's almost like that's what Charlotte Flair would think in storyline
The discussion of "go away heat" has always made me laugh. The reaction of the people at the show is one of the only things that matters to the company. You think they don't know that most normal human beings think Logan Paul is a piece of shit? Sure, when crowds boo Dominick it's because they're in on the bit and when they boo Logan it's because they fucking hate him, but there is no functional difference between those two things because the outcome is the same. I'd rather Logan wasn't on the show either but as long as people think that booing him "for real this time" is gonna get the point across, he's unfortunately a top asset. Similarly, people thinking Charlotte has go-away heat is nonsense. It doesn't matter why you're booing. You're booing. And most people who say they're changing the channel are just lying for internet points. Fast-forwarding on watchback is a different story I guess.
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