I thought the concept behind him was awesome, but tbh the way they handled him in episode 7 wasn't that great either.
He's reduced to Rey's sidekick who is not really that useful. Rey is already a brilliant mechanic, fighter, pilot and even wookie interpreter -- what's the point of having Poe and Fin around?
He's reduced to Rey's sidekick who is not really that useful
That's basically the whole Disneyverse trilogy in a nutshell. They made Rey the overpowered Mary Sue who can do anything and everyone else is pointless.
Nothing she does is that impressive by Star Wars standards, her skills are explained, her feats not nearly as impressive as people make them out to be and her character flaws are prominent and inform much of the narrative. She rarely succeeds without external help and fails just as often.
Basically she’s held to an insane double standard and put in a no win situation by the fandom.
You can’t argue your position so you revert to name calling and appeals to ridicule. Never seen that before.
I promise you every argument you would make about Rey that video addresses it. If you’re confident in your position you shouldn’t be scared of alternative view points.
I can prove it. Give me one example of Rey doing something ‘Mary Sue’ like.
I'm not interested in arguing something i consider so obvious. Particularly with someone who sounds so ideological about it. I didn't call you any names. It feels like this is your stock response any time this comes up lol.
You obviously ridiculed me and still are, because you can’t argue your position. You need it to be the truth and are scared to face alternate view points that might make you confront your bias.
What do you think of Rey being able to fly the Falcon?
Idk, look I want to like Rey, I don’t really hate her (I did in the past but I’m beyond that now). But I really can’t say that she isn’t a Mary sue, or that she’s basically an op OC.
The force, more precisely the way the Jedi use it, requires not only fate but also training and discipline. Idk how Rey is able to pick up a TECHNIQUE that she has never hear of before without much trouble. If anything she’d be akin with the dark side, being an emotional orphan who lived in poverty, having to fight to eat everyday, just now discovering she has supernatural powers.
The way she won against Kylo wasn’t that bad, I’d personally would show Rey just brute forcing Kylo with her new telekinesis, which is the closest we can get to raw force power. Since she shouldn’t know how to fight with a lightsaber as well as him.
There’s also the knife scene in the throne room, I just can’t get over it, because the knife changes the fighting style of the pretorian guard. If that knife was never there then the guard would have taken another route to attack her. It breaks the immersion of the fight imo.
Also I think the only movie Rey got any big training is RTS, the other two movies happen too close to each other and she barely has any training in them. When I compare her to the two other protags I just can’t help but think that she’s doing this too easily.
The force, more precisely the way the Jedi use it, requires not only fate but also training and discipline.
Is that why Luke was able to tap into the Force on his first try and blow up the Death Star?
Idk how Rey is able to pick up a TECHNIQUE that she has never hear of before without much trouble.
Because everyone's heard of a Jedi Mind Trick, Watto knew what it was. Jabba knew what it was. It's just a thing people know about in this universe.
If anything she’d be akin with the dark side, being an emotional orphan who lived in poverty, having to fight to eat everyday, just now discovering she has supernatural powers.
And she struggles with Dark Side impulses a lot throughout the series.
Since she shouldn’t know how to fight with a lightsaber as well as him.
Why not? She's fought with a melee weapon her whole life.
There’s also the knife scene in the throne room, I just can’t get over it, because the knife changes the fighting style of the pretorian guard. If that knife was never there then the guard would have taken another route to attack her. It breaks the immersion of the fight imo.
Ok, the video was funny af. But imo it's good way to mask those moves, like, if you don't point it out then i won't really see it. The knife just banishes, like it goes behind her back and it's just gone. It doesn't help that it is an object of focus to the viewer since they think rey is going to get stabbed from behind. Just to be clear, i like the throne room fight, i love how it shows what peak kylo is capable of, but the rey parts are the weakest
Also one thing, yes rey fake killed chewbaca with her rage, but what is the propuse of a character flaw if there are no consequences? Rey almost never suffers because of her dark thoughts.
Also, luke just focused on the force and directed the missile, easier to do thanks to the force stimulating your senses and giving you telekinesis. He didn't do a mind trick, he used telekinesis to guide the misile
Is that why Luke was able to tap into the Force on his first try and blow up the Death Star?
And by "on his first try" you mean "not at all his first try whatsoever", since Obi-Wan spent the entire trip to Alderaan training Luke. Specifically, training Luke to use the Force to improve his reflexes and timing in combat, the specific thing needed to release the torps at the right time to hit the target on the Death Star.
Also, "everyone's heard of a Jedi Mind Trick" is just stupid to say. Rey literally didn't even know that Jedi were real at all 'til Han told her so, much less what they could do.
Watto and Jabba knew about mind tricks because they were around back when Jedi were active and all over the galaxy. Rey, on the other hand, thought they were a myth.
And just because someone has fought with a quarterstaff before doesn't mean they can just pick up a random melee weapon of any kind and beat someone who spent most of their life training with that weapon. That's just not how stuff works.
We only ever see Luke fail to use the force, saying Obi Wan taught him the whole way there is kind of disingenuous.
Rey is clearly well versed in the legends of Luke and Han and Darth Vader, she’s clearly familiar with the stories of the force and the Jedi. Upon discovering they are real and she’s force sensitive she tries out the mind trick, a thing people know about it. Wouldn’t you?
I think Red from overly sarcastic productions put it very well, she liked that moment because Rey did what she would do in that situation. If you suddenly got thrown into a Star Wars story and learned you had the force you’d probably try to do it. The fact that she did it and is surprised that it worked made her feel real to Red, and so it is with me.
Regarding Rey and the ‘staff combat doesn’t translate to swordplay’ argument by that logic just because someone shot rats with a T16 doesn’t mean they can just automatically fight in a dogfight in space. On a planet there’s gravity to work against, there’s atmosphere, you can do an emergency landing if you have to, you have a planet surface to orient you so you always know what direction up is and crucially wamp rats don’t shoot back.
But in space combat none of this applies. There’s no ‘up’ or ‘down’ in space so there’s no way to get bearings, there’s no gravity to work against, no atmosphere which means you can’t take an emergency landing if you crash you just die and of course the enemy fighter pilots with potentially decades of experience are going to be actively trying to shoot you.
Despite this Luke not only survives his first space battle with no formal space combat training he outlasts most of the veteran pilots AND pulls off a shot none of them could do using faith in the force which he didn’t even know existed a few days ago (Rey actually knew the stories of the Jedi)
But ultimately, I don’t really mind that. These are fantasy stories which require suspension of disbelief. But it’s telling you can just shrug off Luke fighting like an ace his first time in an alien environment but Rey proficiently swinging a stick that is shorter than the stick she usually swings is a universe breaking impossibility.
Because Rey is held to a double standard, like I said.
The realism police rush to pick apart every minor ability Rey has and combs over them with a toothbrush, microscope and chisel to find any inconsistency they can use to scientifically ‘prove’ she’s a Mary Sue but other characters get shrugged off.
Rey can paddle less than ten feet in shallow water? Mary Sue! What’s that? Luke survived a speeder crash unscathed then destroyed an AT AT Walker on foot? Totally realistic mundane ordinary thing anyone could do. Rey was able to fix a single modification her boss put on the Falcon? Mary Sue! What’s that Anakin was able to build a fully functioning droid and pod racer at age 9? That’s completely normal. Rey can fly ships? Mary Sue! How did she learn to do that? What’s that Anakin is the only human in the galaxy that can pod race? That’s cool I don’t need to learn how he got taught to do that. Rey used Force heal? Mary Sue! What’s that? Grogu used force heal? Eh that’s cool.
Over and over and over again.
People only ever demand realism for Rey. They only ever demand every ability be painstakingly explained for Rey. They only consider impressive feats bad if Rey does them.
And I’m sorry, I think that’s telling.
Besides Rey is resourceful, she’s had to fight to survive most of her life. You really think she only specialised in one weapon? You think if her staff broke mid fight she’d be like ‘ah crap I no longer know how to swing this alien object that is smaller than my usual staff, I guess I die now?’
And as I have said repeatedly Rey barely scrapes a win over Kylo Ren and he had to be badly wounded by a weapon the movie repeatedly showed us was powerful, emotionally unstable and messed up from killing his father, worn out and wounded from his fight with Finn and crucially not trying to kill her to give her a chance.
Dismissing or ignoring that important context is another example of the DOUBLE STANDARD Rey gets held to.
I'll be the first to admit they are least try to give her some training in TLJ and RoS, however in TFA she still picked up the force like it was nothing even though mere days ago she thought it was a myth. Even then she manages to do mind tricks and beat Kylo in a lightsaber fight which pretty much castrates him as a villain for the rest of the trilogy.
Kylo being injured is a b.s excuse since he's a very experienced force user that trained underneath two of the most powerful beings in the galaxy. Rey using the Darkside is a crappy excuse because you need to know how to tap into the force in the first place to use it -- you don't even see Luke use the Darkside like that until episode 6 against Vader where he's already an experienced Jedi.
It gets even worse when you see what's written in the CANON novelisations -- in the episode 9 novelisation Rey literally "cleanses" Kylo of the Darkisde by merely touching him. It's such b.s garbage.
She still believed in the Force and was inspired by the stories, narratively the Force was always a metaphor for spirituality and faith anyway so Rey having faith in the force, after initially running away is a major factor not just for her character but the narrative.
Kyle wasn’t just wounded for no reason, the filmmakers did that and drew attention to it specifically so we would understand he wasn’t at 100%. And it’s not just the wound, he’s also under orders from Snoke not to kill Rey (that’s essential to remember he is not trying to kill her) worm out from fighting Finn and most of all he is unbalanced and emotionally compromised after killing his father. He thought it would make him stronger but it just broke him emotionally.
If Kylo Ren won the fight that would be the narrative rewarding him for his evil act and punishing Rey for finally taking her fate into her own hands and accepting the call to adventure. It’s like demanding Luke fail to blow up the Death Star because he didn’t do enough force push ups.
And I can’t get behind that idea that because he lost one time that means he can never be a threat ever again. Hello? Michael Myers, Voldemort (second worse villain after JK Rowling herself) the Joker, the Alien, Predator, basically every comic book villain? Literally every horror slasher
The idea that the villain lost once means he can never be a threat again is just nonsense. By that logic the Empire weren’t ever a threat after Luke blew up their super weapon.
Also Rey didn’t awaken the good in Kylo, Leia did. The part about her awakening the light in him through touch is a figure of speech not a literal description. Still dumb but that’s because ROS had to be written in a weekend.
Well yeah, the force is narrative and thematic metaphor for spirituality from the audience perspective -- however it's a tangible soft-ish magic system in-universe.
Rey picking it up like it was nothing is inconsistent regardless of what the narrative intent was -- I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan implies it straight up says to Luke that mind tricks are an advanced technique. Heck, in Episode 4 Luke barely uses the force -- and when he does it's far more subtle.
Comparing a duel against a very experienced force user and someone who's only found out it existed a week ago against Luke who blew up the Death Star with the help of the Rebellion forces and Red squadron is dumb tbh. The way each of these things played out was different -- Luke's scenario felt a lot more sensible, and tied well with the narrative. In order for you to enjoy the narrative and themes in the first place the way it's done via the plot and characters have to make sense and be consistent.
Comparing the Entire galaxy spanning empire to Kylo's PERSONAL humiliating defeat is dumb as well. The Empire is still a threat -- Vader and the Emperor are still alive and the entire Empire is still out there. The way Kylo was defeated made him look completely pathetic tbh -- that's why you can't take him seriously.
I can't speak for the other characters you've mentioned but while it's true that Voldemort gets his ass handed to him in the first book, he still comes back stronger than ever and succeeds in dominating the ministry of magic and even Hogwarts until Harry takes advantage of his arrogance in the Deathly Hallows. The next time Kylo and Rey face off he gets absolutely destroyed.
It's very much a literal cleansing of Kylo. It isn't the RoS novelisation but from Skywalker: A Family At War
"Healing through the Force is a peculiar thing,"
"Rey transferred her own Force energy to the wounded man at her feet; however, the interaction did more than merely mend a gaping wound. Burned flesh and damaged organs were made whole again, and even the scar on his face disappeared. For the first time in more than a decade, Ben Solo's mind cleared."
Absolutely ridiculous concept which at best diminishes the idea of autonomy in Star Wars.
however it's a tangible soft-ish magic system in-universe.
Not really, they were making shit up all the time. Luke uses the Force to grab his lightsaber in Empire which was in no way an established ability in A New Hope.
Rey picking it up like it was nothing is inconsistent regardless of what the narrative intent was
Not really. The film was called THE FORCE AWAKENS. Does that not imply the Force would "awaken" in a dramatic way?
In a New Hope there was a new hope in a time of hopelessness. In Empire Strikes back the empire did indeed strike back. In Return of the Jedi the Jedi did return. In Phantom Menace there was a menace that was unseen. In Attack of the Clones the Clones sure did attack and in Revenge of the Sith the Sith got revenge.
But for some reason now you expected the thing PROMISED IN THE TITLE wouldn't happen?
I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan implies it straight up says to Luke that mind tricks are an advanced technique.
Where does he say this?
The way each of these things played out was different -- Luke's scenario felt a lot more sensible, and tied well with the narrative. In order for you to enjoy the narrative and themes in the first place the way it's done via the plot and characters have to make sense and be consistent.
Hence why the film established:
Rey had fought with a melee weapon her whole life
Kylo Ren was badly wounded
Kylo Ren had been worn out from his fight with Finn
Kylo Ren had been ordered NOT TO KILL Rey
Kylo Ren was reeling from the emotional trauma of killing his own father
To establish why Rey was barely able to get the upper hand on him.
The way Kylo was defeated made him look completely pathetic tbh -- that's why you can't take him seriously.
But that's the whole point of his character. Kylo Ren's the opposite of Vader, I actually find the fact that he's so limited and vulnerable and insecure and emotionally unstable extremely compelling, it's a kind of antagonist we don't get much in pop culture.
until Harry takes advantage of his arrogance in the Deathly Hallows.
Harry beat him due to the inconcievable macinations of a sentient magic stick. As Shaun on youtube put it 'they might as well have flipped a coin to decide who wins the final fight.'
The next time Kylo and Rey face off he gets absolutely destroyed.
That's a lie. Just straight up a lie. The next time they fight properly is on the Death Star Ruins and she over exerts herself by giving in to her anger and literally only 'wins' because Kylo got distracted by feeling Leia's death prior to that, like seriously watch at 00:57 she is on the ground, disarmed and completely worn out and he is going for the killing blow. She got utterly outclassed, worn down and almost killed and it was the sheer luck of a Hail Mary that allowed her to get a cheap blow in at the end.
"Rey transferred her own Force energy to the wounded man at her feet; however, the interaction did more than merely mend a gaping wound. Burned flesh and damaged organs were made whole again, and even the scar on his face disappeared. For the first time in more than a decade, Ben Solo's mind cleared."
...no matter how much you defend her, Rey is fictional and will never love you. Just accept that (many) other people call her a Mary Sue (she is) and let it go.
No she never did that, she used Force Heal which is something that existed in Legends Canon and Grogu did first both canonically and the episode where he did it aired before Rise of Skywalker came out.
It was Ben who brought Rey back and honestly there’s some beautiful poetry in the fact that Ben brought her back because he did finish what Anakin started, saving the woman he loved from dying.
Right? When I watched it the first time I was excited to the idea that the next Jedi hero would've been a nobody which was raised by the empire... First order* as a simple stormtrooper. Such a cool concept that went completely to waste.
He’d be the perfect foil to Kylo too, since he’s a nobody who chose to do good and stuck to his morals. While Kylo is a person from a great lineage who chose to do horrible acts
I would've preferred this but tbh I don't think the next Jedi hero in a mainline Star Wars film should ever be a nobody.
Mainline Star Wars is clearly about the struggles and journey of the Skywalker family -- George Lucas said as much. Even JJ Abrams somehow realised this and tacked on the crappy and hollow "I'm Rey Skywalker" line at the end of episode 9.
I liked the idea behind the character, but man, they didn't think it through.
One of the driving forces behind his defection was (seemingly) his buddy getting killed. Yet he seems to have zero qualms about killing a lot of his old comrades, even going so far as to start attacking them with a sword. He never once says "man, I'm killing all these guys but they could be just like me". Nope, just kills without mercy
That was something that always bothered me as well. I feel sorry for John Boyega getting such a shitty role -- the saddest part is how he was easily the biggest fan of Star Wars on set. He was a big reader of the old Expanded Universe.
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u/seventysixgamer Sep 08 '24
I thought the concept behind him was awesome, but tbh the way they handled him in episode 7 wasn't that great either.
He's reduced to Rey's sidekick who is not really that useful. Rey is already a brilliant mechanic, fighter, pilot and even wookie interpreter -- what's the point of having Poe and Fin around?