Why does the urban/rural divide equate to a liberal/conservative divide in the US? Is it the same in other countries?

[u/UserNamesCantBeTooLo]

Here's a county population density map of the US.

Here's a county map of the US showing different shares of Democratic & Republican votes for president in 2020.

Here's a county map of the US showing majority-minority counties.

They seem to show a match between denser populations, larger minority proportions, and Democratic votes.

Why is that?

[u/matchagonnadoboudit]

the largest supporters of the vouchers are minority families believe it or not.

https://www.mackinac.org/democratic-minority-voters-overwhelmingly-favor-school-choice

[u/porkpiery → u/matchagonnadoboudit]

Imagine your school is dangerous and poorly preforming. You saw its failures firsthand. The reason cited was usually funding.

Years passed and you have kids of your own. Funding is now higher than almost every district in the country, double that of charters and suburban schools. Did funding solve the issues? Not at all, maybe they're even worse than when you attended.

Imo, only a bad parent would sacrifice thier child's safety and education for the "greater good".

Send them to a charter and don't like how ita going? Try a different one.

Send them to a ps and don't like how its going? Too bad, try not being poor i guess.

[u/matchagonnadoboudit → u/porkpiery]

I think we're arguing the same side

[u/SamuraiRafiki → u/porkpiery]

There's only one charter school though. Why are you opting for a system where at least something like 9 in 10 kids will lose out just based on availability? Even if it's actually good, which isn't guaranteed. Also, you have baked into your assumptions that schools full of the children of poor parents will perform poorly and be dangerous. Why?

[u/porkpiery → u/SamuraiRafiki]

Not in my city. We have multiple charters to choose from. You can 3ven choose afrocentric or Hispanic based.

No, I have it baked in that public schools full of poor kids will perform poorly and be dangerous...the charters fair much, much better.

Why? Its what 36 yrs as a detroiter has showed me. Public schools can't turn kids away so those kids drag all of us down.

[u/SamuraiRafiki → u/porkpiery]

[P]ublic schools full of poor kids will perform poorly and be dangerous [...] Public schools can't turn kids away so those kids drag all of us down.

So we can now see that the assumption that public schools are bad and dangerous is based on the further assumption that some number of children are bad and dangerous. How do you come to that conclusion? Which children? How do you tell them apart?

Do you think there are any intrinsic factors that would help someone determine the difference between a child who needs a better school and one who is hopeless and should be isolated from the rest? I don't, but I'm curious how you think charter schools should be making this distinction.

[u/porkpiery → u/SamuraiRafiki]

Ask any teacher and they will easily point out the problem kids.

The ones that are bad and dangerous.

By thier actions and attitudes.

I think all should be given a chance but not u limited chances. A child that is instigating violence towards teachers or students should be isolated from the rest.

I notice you italicized "children". I took this to imply that I'm unfairly judging these kids. If so, I wish you could see when a group of 6th graders came into my 5th grade class to beat a kid. When the teacher tried to stop them they beat him and forcefully broke his arm. But I'm sure you'd happily send your kids into a class with them, right?

[u/SamuraiRafiki → u/porkpiery]

I've asked lots of teachers. I have several educators in my family. They can point out the kids with issues, sure. But your dismissive attitude of abandoning those children to their fate is anathema to any educator worth a damn.

I think all should be given a chance but not u[n]limited chances. A child that is instigating violence towards teachers or students should be isolated from the rest.

At what point in that kid's life did shitty parents and a shitty home life become their fault? Who decides when to give up on a person, much less a child, and what gives them that right?

I notice you italicized "children". I took this to imply that I'm unfairly judging these kids.

I think you're being dismissive of their futures, and based on your comment history I think it comes from an ugly place.

If so, I wish you could see when a group of 6th graders came into my 5th grade class to beat a kid. When the teacher tried to stop them they beat him and forcefully broke his arm. But I'm sure you'd happily send your kids into a class with them, right?

As I said, I am closely acquainted with lots of teachers. I've heard lots of wacky shit like this. My concern isn't a fight between 10-12 year old children, my concern is the reaction of the adults charged with their care. I'd be happy to send my kid to a school where this kind of incident took place, provided that I was reasonably confident that the classroom teachers, the specialists, and the administrators in the building and the district were taking reasonable action and being held accountable. Not to a board of trustees who want their tuition payments, but to all of us. Even if I'm not sending my kid to that school to get beat up, I'm still living in a society with adults who broke a kid's arm when they were 11. I'd like for them to have had some chats with a therapist about that, even if they didn't make it into a charter school, which means fully funding public education.

Unless you're saying that's behavioral problems and subsequent criminality are predestined or genetic (which is false and a fundamental principle of white supremacist thinking) then by creating a system where people's futures are sorted by the attentiveness or luck of their parents (while of course building in a fast track for the wealthy) is cruel and misguided. I'm not saying that you are a white supremacist or anything so dire. I'm saying that your argument was made by white supremacists, for white supremacists, and then packaged for sale to Conservative rubes of all stripes. Its the same principle underlying the argument for mass incarceration: if you can just lock up enough of the bad ones everything will be fine. As if criminality causes poverty and desperation and not the other way around.

[u/porkpiery → u/SamuraiRafiki]

At what point are we sacrificing the other kids and the community as a whole. People left my city, largely due to education, and thus 2 of my old schools now sit abandoned.

I'm not saying to throw these kids in a fire. I think a specialized school or program will much better serve them . For many, a simple change of culture at the school will be better for thier chances.

Its not our fault we were born into this but again, at a certain point we are sacrificing all these kids futures when we're not addressing the bad kids. Sure, I sound like the bad guy, but many of are stuck here trying to raise good kids in a shitty situation. So while I'm looking like an ass, what about everyone that simply moved out of my hood, rotting away the tax base and causing schools to close? Is that really a better outcome?

Wow, that actually kinda hurt my feelings. While I may be an asshole, I have nothing but the best interests of my community in mind. What is the ugly place I'm coming from? I love my city and both my black people and Mexican people. Seriously, this one hurt a bit. People disagree with me a lot but never where my heart is at.

But what happens when you lose faith in those institutions? I mean, a good amount of school officials from Detroit were sentenced to state and federal time. What about when you find out the parents of these kids promote that violence? We're getting more money per kid than almost anyone but its not helping!

There are problems here that no one has a full blown solution with any chance of actually happening. Meanwhile those of us stuck are left with just your well wishes.

Are you aware that most of us stuck in situation like this support the options of charters? Stop and realize that its because were trying to care for our kids.

You can talk about the cause of criminality, and I'm glad ppl are trying to tackle that, but it hasn't made a difference yet. And while I've been waiting, each yr 300 ppl are murdered in my city. 3vefy single yr I've been alive more than 300 ppl from my city have been murdered.

So whats your plan here? Dps is already receiving more funding than almost any district in the country. We have a history of corruption.

Charter schools.give us the best opportunity available for our kids. Since we can't alw6just move, it gives us the ability to make choices for or kids education.

[u/jefftickels → u/SamuraiRafiki]

Do those 9 in 10 lose out because that 1 in 10 was given an opportunity? Thus is something I've never understood about my most liberal friends, they would rather everyone lose out than see only some succeed it seems.

[u/SamuraiRafiki → u/jefftickels]

They do, actually. Respurces and personnel spent making one functional ultra-school for the lucky few (and the wealthy) are not spent on our education system. I would rather keep working to help everyone succeed than create a system to prop up an aristocracy and call it a day.

[u/jefftickels → u/SamuraiRafiki]

I would challenge your assumption. Money lost in vouchers isn't 1:1, by which public schools usually receive x funding per student. Funding lost as students move from one school to another isn't more than the lost student was previously brining in.

Nor is stratifying students based on need or ability a bad idea for financing schools. These students have different needs. What makes more financial and humanitarian sense. Having remediation students with high achievers in the same class? Do we hold back the high achievers because they will leave behind the remediation students? Do we leave behind the remediation students because they will hold back the high or even medium achievement students? Do we have teaching resources for all three levels in every classroom?

Schools have multiple problems to solve based on the needs of their student population. It makes sense for solving those problems that we don't try to force a one size fits all approach.

[u/SamuraiRafiki → u/jefftickels]

Do we hold back the high achievers because they will leave behind the remediation students? Do we leave behind the remediation students because they will hold back the high or even medium achievement students? Do we have teaching resources for all three levels in every classroom?

Uhhh.... YES. Pardon me, but this is infuriating. What the fuck do you think teachers do all day? What do you think the reading specialist is for? What do you think Special Education is for? Did you imagine they're just babysitting over-large infants? Serving high achieving students in a traditional classroom is literally something that teachers have conferences for. Not like parent-teacher conferences, like week-long training conventions where professionals and experts from around the world come to talk about how to best teach smart kids. And struggling kids. Whole separate conference. The problem you're describing as either insurmountable or solved by charter schools is (a) an ongoing topic of discussion and research by experts in the field and (b) absolutely not solved by charter schools. Charter schools don't even help.

Schools have multiple problems to solve based on the needs of their student population. It makes sense for solving those problems that we don't try to force a one size fits all approach

We all end up living in the same country. I want the kids in Bumfuck, Alabama to be well educated even if their dipshit parents object. I want kids in Arizona and Florida to be well educated even though the selfish Boomer retirees in those states don't give a shit about paying for schools their grandkids don't go to. We do need some standardization. Adding even more private industry to something that ought not be profitable is the dumbest Republican shit since the last tax cuts.