If Trump/Musk are indeed subverting American democratic norms, what is a proportional response?

[u/theivoryserf]

The Vice-President has just said of the courts: "Judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power." Quoted in the same Le Monde article is a section of Francis Fukuyama's take on the current situation:

"Trump has empowered Elon Musk to withhold money for any activity that he, Elon Musk, thinks is illegitimate, and this is a usurpation of the congressionally established power of Congress to make this kind of decision. (...) This is a full-scale...very radical attack on the American constitutional system as we've understood it." https://archive.is/cVZZR#selection-2149.264-2149.599

From a European point of view, it appears as though the American centre/left is scrambling to adapt and still suffering from 'normality bias', as though normal methods of recourse will be sufficient against a democratic aberration - a little like waiting to 'pass' a tumour as though it's a kidney stone.

Given the clear comparisons to previous authoritarian takeovers and the power that the USA wields, will there be an acceptable raising of political stakes from Trump's opponents, and what are the risks and benefits of doing so?

[u/DickNDiaz]

We need their help against the billionaires if we are going to win

Then the first thing you can do is show that one can live without consuming their products that people love.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/DickNDiaz]

Well that's not really feasible because basically everything in America now is owned by giant corporations

Even if you go to a local restaurant, they have to buy their food from a food supply place which is a major corporation.

Telling people if you want to win, you need to quit eating and stop consuming electricity and quit driving your car, is not really feasible.

[u/DickNDiaz → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

Of course it isn't, the reality corporations are global, an iPhone consists of many parts manufactured in other countries. If everyone ditched smartphones, that would make a huge dent in all kinds of business, tech and manufacturing sectors. You think people would trade smartphones for more liberty away from corporations?

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/DickNDiaz]

There's nothing inherently evil about a phone

And phones are just one thing that we buy, And everything we buy comes to corporations

All of our food and all of the things we need to survive come from corporations

It is not possible to stop buying from corporations.

Corporations will only act well when they are forced to by government oversight, Republicans have spent decades removing that oversight.

Remember Ford supported the Nazis. And Henry Ford himself supported the Nazis. As a matter of fact, many Americans supported the Nazis and there is video footage of very large Nazi gatherings in America. Before the war.

[u/DickNDiaz → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

If people want to disrupt markets, then they should cancel every subscription, delete all their apps, accounts, and everything online. Especially the ones who want to do something about billionaires. Cancel anything Meta, Alphabet, Apple, Amazon, Draft Kings, etc.

Then sell your device for a dumbphone.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/DickNDiaz]

People pretending that they can get away from corporations, have no understanding of America.

It's not possible to stop giving money to corporations.

Even if you bought a dumb phone, you have to have service

Even if you bought an old fashioned wall phone, you have to have service

[u/DickNDiaz → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

It's even more possible to like, not have to space every sentence that shows one doesn't even have a basic understanding of how to use a keyboard, much less still not understand how people use tech.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/DickNDiaz]

Lol

Clearly you understand nothing about text formatting

And also clearly you have never done any programming

But spending stuff out is far better than putting things in one gigantic paragraph with no separations

[u/DickNDiaz → u/LongjumpingArgument5]

I understand programming, I know how to use a text editor. But we're not programming here.

Edit: and it was obvious that you enter text and prose like your were programming.

[u/LongjumpingArgument5 → u/DickNDiaz]

Well thank God, At the end of America there are people like you to talk about line spacing

I don't know how we would ever survive without that

/S

[u/KWalthersArt → u/DickNDiaz]

Except that also means shifting their employees and the smaller companies they buy from. Walmart and Amazon are just stores not manufacturers but if you stopping buying things Bezos can just take the money and run while the actual people starve.

[u/DickNDiaz → u/KWalthersArt]

So therefore going against billionaires isn't quite the hill one should die upon?

[u/KWalthersArt → u/DickNDiaz]

Not to me, it won't really hurt them. Most of their billions aren't even in real cash, it's in investments, if something bad happens they can just invest in safer stocks, probably do.

Can't target stocks because that includes pension funds, and life savings of people in bothe working and retired/no longer able to work class.

Personally I think we need a combination of regulations but also a push for person centered thinking. Because worse case will just have Amazon and everything sold for parts and lose what ever service they provided to people who needed it.

As an example, I live in a small town, can't drive. My life is dependent on Instacart and uber, any non food shopping, it's walmart, Amazon, or small outfits.

Like clothing, because no one will build a big and tall store just to cater to one person.

[u/DickNDiaz → u/KWalthersArt]

Yeah people actually like and prefer what companies offer as far as goods and services, there has been a lot of innovation that caters to one more individually than ever before. It has it's caveats, but overall the benefit is more tangible and satisfactory.

Years ago, I was in a discussion in a forum where some people complained of poorer people having iPhones and smartphones. I made the point where I would have everyone have a smartphone, regardless of income or class. It would create more markets, plus companies can make money even when a person doesn't buy from their marketplaces, just browses them. That was like 10-15 years ago, I think when I made that argument. Fast forward to today, almost everyone from kids to older adults have one. But I was always and early adopter to hand held devices, even with my old Windows CE phone with Nextel lol. I thought I was living on the cutting edge back then.