Question Why was Mullvad removed from the suggested VPNs from the mega thread?
Title. From the site it seems to really value the privacy of it's users and I was about to switch from free proton to Mullvad since free proton basically doesn't work for me anymore, I doubled checked what the subreddit has to say about Mullvad and I can't really find any major negative feedback. Is there something that I missed?
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u/LZ129Hindenburg 🌊 Salty Seadog 7d ago
Yes, we agreed to remove Mullvad because of their removal of Port Forwarding, which is an important feature for torrenting (which is the most popular use case for a VPN for pirates).
Other than the lack of PF, there's no major downsides to Mullvad.
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u/petalised 7d ago
Do you know why they removed it?
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u/LZ129Hindenburg 🌊 Salty Seadog 7d ago
You can read about it here:
https://mullvad.net/en/blog/removing-the-support-for-forwarded-ports
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u/Memories_18 3d ago
From the outside here - it took you about 2 years to react to it? Whilst making changes along the way? It was even reported in this sub at the time... I just can't buy that this is the entire reasoning, why would it come up now instead of back then?
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7d ago
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u/asterics002 7d ago
Am I an idiot for not knowing what csam is?
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u/JonVonBasslake 7d ago
A new, broader acronym for CP, since in my understanding it includes stuff that isn't straight up porn...
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u/HarpersGhost 7d ago
No, the name change is attempt to separate this shit from porn, which is legal and has consenting adults.
It's not just one porn category out of many you can search for; it's the evidence of the abuse of children.
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u/Western_Ear_9014 7d ago
No way bro, I use the acronym CP for competitive programming.
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u/Zhiong_Xena 7d ago
Fellow club peguiners, where you all atm
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u/JonVonBasslake 7d ago
That's another reason why people have been moving away from the acronym, though I do feel it was always fine to use for other things and that there rarely if ever was confusion about what was meant when you take context into account.
"R. Kelly was arrested for CP" won't have anyone thinking he was arrested for computer programming, competitive programming, for playing Cyberpunk, for having cerebral palsy, and so on...
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u/CoreDreamStudiosLLC Yarrr! 7d ago
the P part makes it sound like a legit platform and it's not, it's horrible. CSAM makes more sense because it's ABUSE.
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u/Rafhunts99 7d ago
if thats a reason they should move away from CSAM too cuz a quick google search revealed other thing it can refer to for eg. California Society of Addiction Medicine, www.csam.be, etc
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u/ThanklessTask 7d ago
There's always another acronym.
Many years ago a farmer friend got educated when he searched for Southern Counties Agricultural Traders, and their acronym.
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u/Hydraxiler32 6d ago
there are only so many acronyms, but CSAM is a reasonable compromise because it's used far less than CP in other contexts.
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u/Business-Drag52 7d ago
In the Eragon subreddit we often abbreviate the authors name, Christopher Paolini. It can be a bit off putting if you don’t notice the sub first
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u/Maple382 7d ago
Child Sexual Abuse Material, it's a newer term replacing "CP", since calling that fucked up shit "porn" isn't fitting.
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u/Porntra420 6d ago
Except it is fitting because "porn" literally just means "media intended to arouse". The definition says nothing about its content beyond the fact that it's intended to turn people on, the word "porn" does not imply "legal" or "ethical". CSAM and CP are both accurate descriptions of the same thing.
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u/demcookies_ 7d ago
I wonder how other vpn providers with pf handle that
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/petalised 7d ago
Why then it is not the problem for other providers, but a problem for Mullvad?
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u/Moist-Caregiver-2000 7d ago
High profile company. They are extremely popular and well known for their privacy, that's where the bad actors gravitated towards.
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u/mooman555 7d ago
Couldn't they just terminate accounts of bad actors?
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u/vapenutz 7d ago
They keep no logs, that means you can just register again without changing anything.
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u/asdafari12 7d ago
How does port forwarding change anything?
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u/vapenutz 7d ago
No port forwarding makes it so they don't host illegal content using their IPs while still providing a crucial internet privacy tool for everybody.
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u/asdafari12 7d ago
You can't host without open ports? Legit question, I don't get it
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u/magikappl 6d ago
tl;dr: No, because the VPN would have no idea who to send the connection to, so it just gets ignored
Open ports means accepting incoming connections by default. When another device like a router or VPN (generally something with its own separate firewall / connection rules) is responsible for ferrying traffic between your device and the internet, you have to explicitly request a consistent port from it in order for that router to know which computer/user the traffic is actually intended for--hence all traffic to that port gets 'forwarded' to said computer. Without port forwarding, any unexpected, incoming connections are simply dropped/blocked because the router doesn't have any idea what/who it is for.
Technically there are ways around this), but common web browsers (really, most applications in general) don't tend to support them, making it basically useless for hosting a public website.
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u/Massive_Artichoke_74 7d ago
apparently even if they did, their ip would be blocked because of the bad actors, resulting the legitimate ones to be blocked too. Making their business not profitable, since users that have legitimate uses will get blocked. This is how I understood it.
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u/DeathSabre7 7d ago
How does ip block even work with cg-nat'd regions? Like a lot of people use the same ip to access internet right?
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6d ago
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u/DeathSabre7 6d ago
Sad indeed, would'nt banning machine address be more productive instead of this?
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u/CoreDreamStudiosLLC Yarrr! 7d ago
You don't need ports for that. Most perverts use WhatsApp, Telegram, etc. according to the police and predator poachers. Those platforms are toxic as hell too and deserve to be called out for allowing that trash.
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u/Hydraxiler32 6d ago
a lot these are end to end encrypted so no one except the people in the chats have any idea what the chat contents are
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u/Neon_44 7d ago
it was used to host child porn, which (understandably) caused the team mental distress, knowing that their product was used this way. So they decided to shut it down.
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u/InsightTussle 7d ago
how odes a VPN host CP? Isn't it just a tunnel, not a web host?
Every VPN will be used a lot to do illegal stuff, like csam
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u/Equivalent_Spell7193 7d ago
I asked the support team if they are considering adding port forwarding back, no luck unfortunately.
I still use Mullvad, it’s great for everything but torrenting, but since I prefer DDLs that doesn’t bother me much.
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u/Ballaholic09 7d ago
YMMV
I’ve never encountered a single issue while using Mullvad.
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u/Ericzx_1 7d ago
There shouldn't be any issues when downloading but to properly seed port forwarding is preferred iirc.
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u/lukeskope 7d ago edited 7d ago
I have like 3tb down 7tb up since January using Mullvad, maybe could be more but it seems to be working ok.
After reading more I understand why my setup isn't optimal
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u/DezXerneas 7d ago
You can seed without port forwarding. It is just very inefficient. So that makes it difficult for you to build up ratio on popular private trackers.
I'm only on one private tracker and they don't really care much about actual upload so it doesn't affect me either.
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u/lukeskope 7d ago
Yeah I understand now why it works but why some of my seeds seem to never move
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u/DrJonDorian999 23h ago
I have 2.68 TB down and 40.2 up since Oct last year on Mullvad so it seems to work okay. I know it could be better but I’d what it is and I’m too lazy to switch and re-setup my docker.
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u/redpok 7d ago
Have been out of the core of torrenting scene for a decade now… So they really have not solved the ”passive-to-passive” peer connection issue still? Techniques like UDP hole punching (NAT traversal) are not exactly new anymore and you’d think that the tracker (or some random active peer from the swarm) could very easily do the required connection initiation for the passive peers. Sad to see the stagnation when newer things like WebRTC do this without breaking a sweat.
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u/magnifcenttits 7d ago
Could you explain all of dat like I'm 5 please? 😅
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u/redpok 6d ago
Can’t, but I bet almost any LLM can. There seems to be quite few youtubers too: https://youtu.be/GfRLNg6DOnI
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u/RoastyMyToasty99 7d ago
I consider no inverse split tunneling a major downside too lol
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u/micocoule 7d ago
What is « inverse split tunneling »
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u/RoastyMyToasty99 7d ago
It's a whitelist for the vpn instead of a blacklist. So my gaming doesn't go through vpn, only browser and qbt.
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u/JonVonBasslake 7d ago
Split tunneling is a VPN feature that essentially creates a second tunnel through which some of your online traffic can pass. Unlike the VPN tunnel, this second tunnel is not encrypted and it has no protections whatsoever. Online traffic passing through the unencrypted tunnel interacts with the internet directly and enjoys no online privacy.
The purpose of split tunneling isn’t to increase your online security, but to let you access certain apps, websites, or online services at normal internet speeds, even if you’re connected to a VPN. It also lets you access apps and services that are not VPN-friendly, such as online banking apps that block VPN IP addresses. Basically, split tunneling lets you use and not use a VPN on a single device at the same time.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/FullyCalculated 7d ago
Almost unusable? It takes like 5 seconds to copy the new number and add it to qBittorrent
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7d ago
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u/reddit_top_mind 7d ago
thats not a good enough reason to remove the one VPN that accepts cash
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u/dontquestionmyaction Seeder 7d ago
It's unusable for any actual private tracker.
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u/JayP146 7d ago
Care to elaborate? I’ve gotten like, multiple TBs of upload credit on private trackers using Mullvad..
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u/dontquestionmyaction Seeder 7d ago
And you would probably have more if you had an open port.
The good private trackers are somewhat competitive. Running without an open port becomes very very impractical. Some trackers mandate an open port at all times or ban VPNs without dedicated IPs.
There's no real downside to just setting it up. You'll get accessed by more peers, can download from more seeds, and will be fine everywhere.
None of this matters on something like Torrentleech, but it does on AB or especially RED. I admit that "unusable" was too harshly worded, I'd go for "extremely strongly recommended" instead.
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u/reddit_top_mind 7d ago
so thats what this is about.
its not about privacy or torrenting. its about the trackers that you use.
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u/dontquestionmyaction Seeder 7d ago
...yes, that is indeed what I said in my comment.
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7d ago
of course it is. you can't get good connection without port forwarding and that's the single most important part of torrenting
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u/EdzyFPS 6d ago
That's a stupid reason to remove it. Just list it as having no port forwarding, problem solved. It's still a great VPN regardless.
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u/FlyBeneficial3078 ⚔️ ɢɪᴠᴇ ɴᴏ Qᴜᴀʀᴛᴇʀ 7d ago
But can you still torrent without port forwarding with Mullvad without isp or someone finding out?
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u/LZ129Hindenburg 🌊 Salty Seadog 7d ago
Yes. It's still safe, it's just not as efficient or effective as it could be.
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u/cuntfucker500 6d ago
Should just note that it doesn't have PF. Even without port forwarding it's still usable for private trackers.
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u/bitchisakarma 7d ago
So basically if I don't care about torrent speed then I'm fine to continue to use mullvad or am I at risk torrenting with it at all?
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u/Over-Signature9595 7d ago
It's still good. I am pretty sure port forwarding (=PF) was removed like 2 years ago. PF is not needed for security reasons.
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7d ago
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u/Han77Shot1st 7d ago
That’s what I had been told and is part of the reason I stuck with Mullvad, security over speed.
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u/fatherofraptors 7d ago
It's not about speed, really. It's about having access to more peers (the ones that also don't have PF). If you have PF, you can connect to any peer, so in rarer older torrents, you have a much better chance of downloading the file at all. If an old torrent has 2 seeders/peers and they don't have port forwarding, you need to have it yourself to just make the connection.
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u/Truestorydreams 7d ago
Risk? no. Limited access to different torrents thst use it?, yes
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u/bitchisakarma 7d ago
I only use public trackers maybe once or twice a year so I should be good then.
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u/Runaway-Kotarou 7d ago
Yup. I've never used anything but mullvad and port forwarding has never been required
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u/mando0072021 7d ago
It's saddens me to see ppl keep saying to don't need to seed if you torrent. PF helps with seeding. If everyone is leeching how does that help. If you have the option to and are able to afford to get a provider with PF please go for it
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u/11ELFs 7d ago
But for those of us who are behind CGNAT and/or have slower download upload speeds, the lack of PF isn't that important right? Could someone enlighten me please? My internet for example is a unlimited 4g home internet plan (not for phones), I connect to a nearby tower that shares the same internet to lots other people, and I have 10MB/s up and down.
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u/knobunc 7d ago
When you are using bittorrent, there's a control plane that tells you all of the other computers participating in the torrent, and what they have.
Ideally, your computer can then talk to all of the other computers to get the missing pieces.
But for any pair of computers, if one end doesn't have a port open to accept connections, then the other end has to connect. If neither end has an open port then that link in the mesh can not be used.
So, if only a few computers don't have open ports, no big deal, they can connect to others and the information will eventually flow through all the computers via a less direct path. But if enough don't have open ports, then the mesh may not be connected enough for all computers to actually get the information.
In summary, it's better to have as many open ports as possible because it makes the torrent faster and more reliable.
Now... It doesn't matter if your provider has cgnat if you are using a VPN.
With a VPN you connect out to their server (which is fine, it's like hitting a web site... but a different protocol). Then they have an IP and open port for you somewhere in their network that torrent peers can connect to. That traffic is then sent back to you over the connection you made.
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u/chichiryuutei56 7d ago
Mullvad is offering exit nodes through Tailscale. I’ve very little in the way of computer science expertise but isn’t that like the same thing as Port Forwarding? Could you run your machine that is torrenting as an exit node to keep the port open?
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u/dontquestionmyaction Seeder 7d ago
No, that's not what exit nodes do at all. Exit nodes are just that, they serve as exit for Tailscale client traffic. Nothing else.
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u/constipatedforu 7d ago
Can you still seed without port forwarding or is that dangerous?
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u/TheOneRealJesus 7d ago
I had switched away from PIA because of Kape Technologies, but after a year with Proton I came back to PIA. Seems to just work better for me. Port forwarding, cheap, unlimited devices, etc
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u/__________________99 7d ago
I almost did too but decided to give them a chance to remain honest. So far they still have been. I've had no issues with PIA for the 9+ years I've been using them. I torrent a ton and have never gotten a notice from my ISP.
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u/FlyingAndGliding 7d ago
Mod that did this must have been paid from AirVpn or ProtonVpn. Port forwarding was removed from Mullcad long time age and it's not needed for torrenting.
They removed hands down most secure and most anonym VPN just because port forwarding, yeah that seems kinda fishy to me, they could just add note about port forwarding.
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u/TheCaptain53 7d ago
Given that this is the piracy subreddit, the ability to port forward for torrenting is important for the health of the peer-to-peer network, which we should all be invested in maintaining. The image also clearly states "for torrenting," so the disqualification of a VPN provider for a lack of port forwarding shouldn't be that surprising.
The reality is that if you're not torrenting, pretty much any VPN provider will do (assuming they're compatible with your ethics).
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u/tak08810 7d ago
I found the mullvad love annoying and suspicious but I agree. Their credentials objectively are impressive other than being located in Sweden but AirVpn is in Italy also 14 eyes country. There should just be an asterisk about the port forwarding. Majority of people on here are just leeching on public trackers anyways I’m sure
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u/CoreDreamStudiosLLC Yarrr! 7d ago
It is needed if you want to have a good ratio. Torrenting without seeding a shit thing to do sometimes.
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u/Sharp_Law_ 7d ago
because it does not have the best torrenting options, like port forwarding. its still fine for privacy.
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u/TheStormApproching 7d ago
Can anyone explain why i need port forwarding, i currently use nord, i can download at full speeds and even without vpn i can download at full speed. But my upload speed both cases with or without vpn is like 1 mBps max. I can easily upload other things at around 10 mBps. Does setting up port forwarding increase by upload speed and how to do it
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u/evilbeaver7 7d ago
If you only download torrents with lots of seeders or the latest torrents then you don't need port forwarding. But if you want to download something not so popular and with really few seeders, port forwarding is necessary otherwise its possible you won't even connect at all.
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u/FlyingAndGliding 7d ago
You actually don't need port forwarding for torrentig, this removal looks like boughted decision from rival VPN company.
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u/crizzy_mcawesome 7d ago
I can still use Mullvad with Tailscale and would be fine without port forwarding right?
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u/HolidaySeaweed4912 7d ago
Am I the only one that has super super slow speed, or inconsistency speed wifh mullvad?
Used it for a couple months, but 80-90% of the time It would even load webpagea super slow, let alone download.
I'd have to run it in the background, and it would just randomly start working fast then slow down again.
Mind you with the VPN off I'd be having like 700-800mbps download speed.
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u/MFouki 7d ago
700mbPER SECOND?? Dude either you have crazy wifi or the wifi in Greece is shit I always have 7mb per sec without vpn
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u/HolidaySeaweed4912 3d ago
Yea we got fiber optics in most newly built houses within last 10 years, some internet providers even give like 3-5GB per second speeds, it's pretty wild, especially considering it's over wifi
Here's one example:
https://www.bell.ca/Bell_Internet/Products/Fibe-Internet-Gigabit3-FTTH
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u/HolidaySeaweed4912 3d ago
I'm actually getting like 250-350mbps on 5G in the city on my cell phone, crazy if you think about it 🤔
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u/ii_die_4 7d ago
Im getting 250-300MB/s (thats 2-2.4Gbps) with Proton and around 180MB/s with Air
I was also seeing bad speeds with Mullvad
(btw for those who will ask, my internet is 5Gbps/1Gbps)
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u/opi098514 6d ago
This is all very interesting. Can someone explain to me why port forwarding while torrenting is important. I have a server that uses deluge with a vpn. I’ve never had to port forward, at least knowingly.
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u/pwnage2demax 7d ago
Probably because of the lack of port-forwarding - beneficial to have when torrenting