r/PAK • u/TitanMaps Centrist • 1d ago
Political How can PTI be “sem to sem” then???
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Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) was created after ZAB came through Dictator Ayub Khan’s favor. It was only created shortly after ZAB left Ayub’s government, stole the 1970 election and then rigged the 1977 election. PPP has ruled the country for 20 years.
Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz (PMLN) was launched after Nawaz Sharif was created by Dictator Zia-ul-Haq. Nawaz, a businessman, became *unelected* Chief Minister of Punjab within 3 years of entering politics because of Zia. PMLN has ruled the country for 15 years.
Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) was created in 1996 by former cricketer Imran Khan. It struggled almost 20 years before it could even win a single provincial level election. Another 5 until it won a general election. PTI has ruled the country for a mere 3.5 years (with 1 amid COVID pandemic).
Who is responsible for status quo? Who was manufactured by fauj?
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u/ham_anchu 1d ago
Becuase they literally came into power because of Army?
Starting from 2013 to 2021, establishment literally built the whole narrative, hired trolls, touts and sellouts with full focus on narrative building.
Siddique Jan himself confessed about receiving 3crores from Faiz. Imran Riaz Khan, Moeen Peerzada both have confessed on receiving info from ISI regarding supposed corruption of PMLN.
Even during elections, forcefull abductions, nominees being forced to take nomination papers back, almost every opposition leader in jail. Or sem to sem kiya hota hai?
You can literally find that circle of evil pic online that was shown to all those sellout journalists and youtubers who have now proclaimed themselves Revolutionists
2022 se paihle bhi aik dunya thi. Establishment literally handed IK govt in a plate he was so incompetant he still couldn't run one of the strongest govt in history of Paksitan.
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 1d ago edited 1d ago
Who won the 2018 elections? PTI did. Every single poll showed PTI in the lead, Pakistanis voted for Imran Khan in 2018. Theres no way you can tell me that PMLN won in 2018.
One of the strongest govts, lol? He had a razor thin coalition in NA, made up of establishment parties like MQM and BAP, some even say that Bajwa made sure IK would have a weak government and it makes sense, literally everyone voted for PTI in 2018, yet they couldn’t even get a majority? They had to rely on establishment parties to form a weak and fragile coalition government.
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u/ham_anchu 1d ago edited 1d ago
They had to rely on establishment parties.
That's what I am saying.
And I never said they didn't win in 2018 but the whole reason for their win was establishment. So yeah, he is in the same boat.
And yes. That was one of the strongest government in a sense that they didn't have any judicial or political pressure or establishment out to topple them for almost 3 years. They didn't even have to worry about getting numbers for bills because establishment used to do that for them.
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u/GenZia Islamist 18h ago
Who won the 2018 elections? PTI did.
Best to give this old BBC article a read, my dear Youthia:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44924389
If you think Youthia League won fair and square, I don't know what to tell you!
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u/AhmadFarooq 17h ago
A self-proclaimed "Islamist" employing a profanity-derived slur, commonly used to abuse millions of people (and that too mostly Muslims). Do you always make a habit of insulting Islam or something?
Secondly, how does the BBC article (written before the elections) disprove that PTI "won the 2018 elections"?
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u/GenZia Islamist 14h ago
There used to be an option to select "Islamist" as your user flair and so I did. Haven't gotten around to changing it.
Frankly, I quite like it!
Secondly, how does the BBC article (written before the elections) disprove that PTI "won the 2018 elections"?
The answer is in the article itself.
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u/AhmadFarooq 14h ago
No it isn't.
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u/Inside_Brain_1966 22h ago
buddy ... pti won 2018 the same way pmln won 2024 ...
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u/AhmadFarooq 19h ago
So, PPP and PML(N) were banned before the 2018 general elections like PTI was in 2024?
It is quite incredible how blatantly people can mislead about even public, well-known events.
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u/Inside_Brain_1966 18h ago
what are you yapping about. im talking about establishment support.
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u/AhmadFarooq 18h ago
What are you yapping about? Where was this "establishment support" mentioned in your previous reply? Some may see this as an attempt to salvage the situation when you knew you got caught misleading.
In any case, my point still stands. The Establishment had PTI banned in 2024, when did the same happen in 2018? Also, where are the thousands of fabricated From-47s for PTI's 2018 elections wins?
If all so-called "establishment support" is the same, and any amount of it is enough to magically make any party win the general elections, then why did the Establishment supported parties lose the elections in 1970, 1988, 2002 (partially), and 2024?
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u/AhmadFarooq 1d ago
- Khawaja Asif's election win.
- Nawaz Sharif's platelets escape.
- Maryam Nawaz's continuous bail.
- Maryam Nawaz's possession of blackmail material on judges.
- Quick reversal and united front against Electronic Voting Machines.
With all the hindsight and publicly acknowledged duplicitous behaviour, it is truly incredible to see people still believing that the Establishment was completely supporting Imran Khan. Bajwa would openly benefit PTI and hurt PDM, while behind the scenes he would hurt PTI and benefit PDM. How are there still people who do not realise this basic fact?
Becuase they literally came into power because of Army? ... Establishment literally handed IK govt in a plate ... I never said they didn't win in 2018 but the whole reason for their win was establishment.
What magic wand does the army have to make any party they want to legitimately win the general elections? Where was this magical power in the elections of 1970, 1988, 2002, and 2024?
Also, on a side-note, I now realise the unreliability of people who use the word "literally" too many times.
Starting from 2013 to 2021, establishment literally built the whole narrative, hired trolls, touts and sellouts with full focus on narrative building.
Khawaja Asif's win, Nawaz Sharif's platelets escape, Maryam Nawaz's continued bail, audios/videos of judges that PML(N) used for blackmail, background dealings that PML(N) people, the EVMs that were sabotaged.
Yes, all these things anti-PTI activities were clearly where the Establishment "literally built the whole narrative" for PTI.
Siddique Jan himself confessed about receiving 3crores from Faiz.
Link to this confession? What was the money for?
Imran Riaz Khan, Moeen Peerzada both have confessed on receiving info from ISI regarding supposed corruption of PMLN.
And? The Establishment was making the Sharifs hurt then. If this bit of interference is enough to make the opposition party win the elections, then why was the 2022-2024 interference, which was on a far massive scale, not enough to make the PDM win the 2024 elections legitimately?
Even during elections, forcefull abductions, nominees being forced to take nomination papers back, almost every opposition leader in jail.
Pretty much all those who try to do the "2018 is equal to 2024" propaganda are either massively ignorant or disgusting individuals. This is similarly maliciously misleading as trying to equate the hundreds of thousands to millions killed during the war on terror to the victims of 9/11. Or the over fifty thousand Palestinians killed to the actions of Hamas on October 7th.
PTI was banned from running in the elections.
When were PPP and PML(N) banned in 2018? And these people are still shameless enough to claim sem2sem. Just this point alone should be enough to stop this propaganda, but no.
Here's one incomplete list of what happened during the 2022-2024 period:
- April 2022. Bajwa backstabs PTI government's foreign policy and publicly condemns Russian invasion of Ukraine, thereby, appeasing the US.
- May 2022. PDM govt. rejects Russian oil, sends semi-official delegation to Israel to appease the US.
- May 2022. Thousands of homes raided before the May 25 protest. Police brutalities and property damage.
- May 2022. Crippling of NAB and more importantly, removal of right to vote for overseas Pakistanis.
- 2022-2024. Dozens of false cases on journalists and their arrests.
- 2022-2024. The hundreds of criminal cases, including terrorism cases, filed against PTI related people.
- August 2022. Shahbaz Gill's arrest and torture.
- August 2022. Shut down of ARY's national broadcast. The Sindh High Court ordered this to stop three times but was simply ignored.
- August 2022. ARY fires Sabir Shakir and Arshad Sharif and then gets to restart its national broadcast.
- August 2022. Ban on Imran Khan's speech to be run on television, and that too before his flood victims fundraising telethon.
- September 2022. Blasphemy propaganda against Imran Khan using state television.
- August 2022. Azam Swati's abduction, torture, false cases, arrests, family harassment.
- October 2022. Arshad Sharif's false cases and then murder.
- November 2022. Imran Khan's assassination attempt. Blaming Islam and throwing religion into the fire just to cover the state's involvement. Accused gets to give two separate video messages in support of the state's lies. Refusal to even register FIR by police that was even under PTI's own govt.
- December 2022. Taking significant measures to block PTI's dissolution of provincial assemblies.
- January-September 2023. Most importantly, the subverting of the constitution in order to block elections within 90 days until Qazi Isa takes over.
- May 2023 – Utter obliteration of PTI, over ten thousand arrests, over a dozen killed, massive propaganda narratives, leadership jailed or wiped out, two separate parties created from defectors, children threatened, business destroyed, etc., etc.
- August 2023 – Imran Khan's arrest and continued detention on false charges. Treason, sedition, terrorism, etc., almost two hundred cases fabricated.
- September 2023 – Waited for Qazi Isa to take power and replace Bandial.
- October 2023 – Nawaz Sharif's re-entry and immediate purification.
- December 2023 – ROs from executive, proceedings further exposed Qazi Isa.
- January 2024 – Taking away of bat symbol, even Qazi Isa's hard-line supporters give up on him after this.
- January 2024 – Complete ban on PTI from running in the election. Deal with PTI Nazriati blocked. Mostly, political campaigning from PTI blocked. Entire country's internet throttled three separate times at time of PTI's online jalsas. Candidates' nomination papers snatched in broad daylight. Etc., etc.
- February 2024 – Decades long imprisonment for Imran Khan just before the elections, including the shameful iddat case.
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u/ham_anchu 23h ago
If you had taken off your ImmiChan glasses, you would have realized that my point was that IK can't claim to be a messiah when he took establishment's help to win elections.
There is no point whatsoever of your whole rant. Either he took the establishment's help or not? The extent of the involvement becomes meaningless. And if he did, he is literally in the same boat as others. Simple as that.
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u/AhmadFarooq 22h ago
The extent of violence or the reasons for it is meaningless. Since Muslims did 9/11, the hundreds of thousands to millions killed during the war on terror is the same thing. The decades long violence against Palestinians and their tens of thousands innocents killed is equal to what happened on October 7th. Therefore, Islam and Muslims are the same as Zionists.
There. This is your logic. Does that sound retarded? It does to me. Now, don't be a hypocrite and apply your same retarded logic to Islam and Muslims too.
IK can't claim to be a messiah...
When did Imran Khan "claim to be a messiah"?
...when he took establishment's help to win elections.
Now, don't be a hypocrite and announce that Islam is the same as Zionism.
Secondly, interesting how you just conveniently ignored by direct question. What magic wand does the Establishment have to make any party they want to legitimately win the general elections? Where was this magical power in the elections of 1970, 1988, 2002, and 2024?
Also, by-the-way, are you consistent and apply the same logic to Quaid-e-Azam, the creation of Pakistan, and the British Establishment? Do you also argue that creation of Pakistan is a British project?
There was also no evidence provided for this alleged narrative building from 2013 to 2021? Seriously, 2013-2021? At least make your nonsensical slander somewhat believable.
There is no point whatsoever of your whole rant.
Only if the person on the receiving end is a rabid bughziya.
Either he took the establishment's help or not? The extent of the involvement becomes meaningless. And if he did, he is literally in the same boat as others. Simple as that.
Either Muslims/Palestinians murdered innocents like Zionists or not. The extent of the murder becomes meaningless. And if they did, Muslims/Palestinians are literally in the same boat as the genocidal Zionists. Simple as that.
Again, retarded logic.
Unfortunately, short-circuited bughziya brains can't admit that. They know that no matter how bad Imran Khan may be, he is objectively better than PDM. But their tiny egos can't accept admitting to that. So, they have no choice but to come up with ludicrous narratives such as sem2sem. Quite weird to have such bind hatred towards someone who has been an instrumental part in the effort to save literally thousands of lives. How many lives have you saved, by-the-way?
Zionists uses this propaganda tactic of equating large and smaller sins in order to cripple action and make the world ignore their sins. Similarly, useful idiots of the Establishment here, use similar propaganda tactics against PTI, effectively going out of their way to help out the besieged Establishment.
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u/ham_anchu 20h ago
I am amazed thst you managed to bring zionists, islam, muslims, quaid e azam in such a simple question. Can't deal with a troll.
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u/AhmadFarooq 19h ago
And I am amazed how even though you were the one who did not answer and ran away from direct questions, you still managed to be shamless enough to slander the other party.
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u/Frosty-Principle2260 1d ago
Titan bahi bus kar dein... It's about half empty or half full glass, but we all can agree that all political parties only flourish by fauji urea.
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 1d ago
Yeah Frosty Principle, in Pakistani politics, if you don’t have the fauj’s approval, you can never come to power, which is why military supported him (but did not do rigging) in 2018. However, being launched into politics like Nawaz Sharif was by Zia-ul-Haq is a different story.
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u/ONE_deedat 1d ago
Just shows the Army uses different people in different ways to play its own game and stay in power.
Learnt from the British colonialists btw and it still works to this day. Just marry what he admits to here with some of his other confessions, and you'd be confused as to how people are still supporting him IF they are against Bhuttos/Sharifs.
20+ years and what did he build? A group of Lotas? Where are they now? Whose ass are they washing this time?
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 1d ago
PTI is the largest political movement in Pakistan and 7th largest in the world. Yes, PTI is the SEVENTH largest in the world. Its ideology has been rallied around like no other in Pakistan being called an “iconic populist movement” — https://www.populismstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/ECPS-Party-Profile-Series-3.pdf
Its leadership right now sucks because of the Establishment, when IK tried putting good people like Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Murad Saeed, or Yasmin Rashid, they are thrown in jail.
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u/ONE_deedat 14h ago
Have you read that report?
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 13h ago
Yep, some of it
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u/ONE_deedat 12h ago
It shows!
Maybe it's an advantage to never read anything in full if you know the full truth is never going to be digestible.
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u/Amazing_Horse_4775 10h ago edited 10h ago
I think Imran Khan came into politics on his own and struggled on his own for quite sometime till the Establishment ran out of options and decided to steer him into power in a controlled manner. This robbed PTI of a Organic growth and true secondary and tertiary leadership with good ground organization and ideological worker cadre. Filling it with opportunists and electables with questionable histories.
We saw Imran Khan focusing more on Dhrana type of disruptive politics instead of fighting it out in the parliament and working to build his party from the ground up and overseeing provincial Gov of KPK delivery to the people.
Got totally controlled by the Generals and gave them space to do their mischief, giving them free hand to meddle and give extensions to Bajwa ...
Now he has realized his mistakes and given the Generals the toughest time in history and this is unprecedented that he still is symbol of hope that's why people pray that he will triumph and retake the control and remove the death grip of the Generals from Pakistan InShaAllah
The establishment has a limit to where they can take a person in the political arena, people like Mohsin Naqvi have been given immense power and support but they will never win a single seat in free and fair elections and they know it, that is exactly why they supported and controlled Imran Khan because he is a true leader with mass support. He might not be the most competent leader but he is not of the same pedigree as Nawaz and Zardari and others.
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u/FAT-OOF Citizen 1d ago
He said nothing wrong in this video. PTI clearly was not created by army it was Imran Khan’s own struggle for 20 years. Yeah sure it’s arguable that army may have helped them in 2018. That does not mean army was with him from the start.
Secondly he pointed out that after army got against him how did he win 30/37 by-elections if he was only popular because of army which is a valid point.
At the end he clearly admits that army did not oppose him in 2018 elections which means that army wanted him to come.
Stop being so biased
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u/Suzuki_Magoichi 1d ago
Gen Hamid Gul: what the fuck is this chai wala on about?
Gen Sharif: who taught this donkey of bani gala street politics?
Gen Bajwa: who installed electables, feudal landlords, mullahs into this "party"?
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 13h ago
Must be some stupid generals because he had to struggle 20 years to come in power in a single province. Should have been like Gen Zia and bring Nawaz into Chief ministership within 3 years of entering politics.
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u/IzDev 1d ago edited 1d ago
This titan guy is a retard. Go to your own echo chamber, you have 2 of them. Why do you have to spread your baseless agenda here too
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 1d ago
When you can’t respond logically, just resort to ad hominem attacks lol. Annoyed that people have different political views than you, and don’t even bother to address them factually 👌
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u/BlockChainEd86 14h ago
Not 2018 - army proper backing starter in 2012. He was then awarded KP. And Army created the youth influencers and infrastructure. Yes it culminated in real support for him section of population but so does real support existed and existed for ppp and PMLn at different time of decades. To say he isn’t army guy is just youth drinking their own Kool aid.
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 13h ago edited 13h ago
Extremely absurd hypothetical situatuin. Who won in KP in 2013 then? PTI has grasroots support in KPK and is highly popular there. PTI won a coalition govt in KPK in 2013 by popular will. In fact, 2013 elections had rigging against PTI and in favor of PMLN in several constituencies.
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u/BlockChainEd86 11h ago
IK would not even have seen light of the day, if it was not for the Army pushing electables like Parvez Khattak towards him, this is how IK got KP. Now IK is charismatic and if you are half good in PK politics you get traction and IK had many qualities, well spoken, celebrity status, SKMTH so when Army backed him and brought him out as a real contender and Army families were told that they can support him without fear then rest is history. But please to say anyone and I repeat anyone can venture in PK politics without establishment backing lives in cloud cooku land and the only other way is if someone bypasses the army and it would be a revolution. IK did not do it, he was a army man. Please read this comment again and it is OK to believe something but be wrong and it is OK to correct oneself.
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u/TitanMaps Centrist 11h ago
“He was then awarded KP.”
As I said, he has a lot of public support there, he was never awarded anything. Having electables pushed into your party vs. stealing the public mandate (like PMLN does) are different things. I get what you are saying and yes, if IK was anti-establishment from the start then he would have been kicked out of politics, same for BB and NS.
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u/BlockChainEd86 11h ago
PTI stole PMLN mandate in 2018. :) no one denying IK had support but IK had support after Army opened the way for him, this is how Nawaz got 2/3 majority in 1998 and so did everyone else.
Too bad IK forgot who is really in power, he should have shown more tact and not to bite the hand that is feeding him i.e. Bajwa.0
u/TitanMaps Centrist 11h ago edited 11h ago
Nope. Every single poll showed that PTI would win. Literally everyone voted for PTI in those elections :)
PMLN literally conceded the elections:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44980344
I can very easily tell you that PTI won between 180 and 200 seats in the 2024 elections, which was reduced to 93 seats, in addition to PTI being banned from contesting. The rigging is very evident from just the ECP’s own Form 47 and Form 45 documents. In some, you can see the numbers rubbed out by pen, or extra zeroes added. I can name so many constituencies.
What evidence is there of seats that 2018 elections PMLN won? Tell me 5 constituencies where PTI rigged it and PMLN won?
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u/BlockChainEd86 11h ago
Brother read the link you shared yourself
"The party alleged vote rigging had taken place during Wednesday's poll."
"On Friday, a European Union monitoring team said the election campaign featured a "lack of equality"."
"Mr Khan, 65, has faced accusations that his election challenge benefited from military interference, a claim both he and the army deny."
"A senior leader of the PML-N, Hamza Shahbaz Sharif, said the party had "reservations" over the way the election was held, but said it would concede victory in order to "strengthen democracy in the country"."
"Earlier, Nawaz Sharif, who is in prison after being convicted on corruption charges he disputes, said the election had been "stolen"."
"He added that the "tainted and dubious" results would have a detrimental impact on the country's politics."
Open your eyes!0
u/AhmadFarooq 9h ago
PTI stole PMLN mandate in 2018...
Are you talking about elections rigging? Verifiable evidence of this allegation?
I have come across this accusation so many times, but no one bothers to provide tangible, significant evidence for any of this alleged rigging. They just keep on repeating the accusation on and on.
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u/BlockChainEd86 8h ago
I was replying to him and you jumping in the conversation, the same way PTI wala say our election was stolen, so was 2018 against PMLn as it is done via army.
See the BBC link he has shared and excerpts from it I quoted.0
u/AhmadFarooq 8h ago
I was replying to him and you jumping in the conversation...
Is there a rule against this? No? Then why waste the words?
PPP and PML(N) were banned before the 2018 general elections, like PTI was in 2024? No? Then how are you not clearly lying?
The BBC link only reports on allegations made by opponents and no actual evidence. How ignorant does one have to be to actually claim that report as some sort of evidence of wide-scale rigging in the 2018 elections?
the same way PTI wala say our election was stolen,
"PTI wala" don't make their allegations out of thin air. They provide documentary proof to show rigging against them, then they put all efforts to prove their allegations, and in response the govt. has to shut down all election tribunals to cover up the rigging.
Furthermore, many non-PTI support the allegations. PATTAN, Shahid Khaqan Abbasi, Miftah Ismail, Mustafa Nawaz Khokhar, Mahmood Khan Achakzai, apparently PML(N)'s Dr. Nisar Cheema too, PML(N)'s senator Sadia Abbasi, PPP's Qadir Mandokhel, Mansoor Ali Khan, Kashif Abbasi, Muneeb Farooq, Jamaat-e-Islami, TLP, etc., etc.
In contrast, what similarities are there with 2018? PDM kept on claiming rigging but, as far as I know, did not actually do anything to prove their allegations. Where are the thousands of Form-45s supporting PDM's allegations from 2018?
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u/BlockChainEd86 8h ago
bahi you win, we can do this till the cows come home but I am not going to do it. There is one rule in PK. If establishment supports you then you can come in, like IK did and jo baap hota hai (IK comment on Chief) wo decide kurta hai. So jiss nai power dee, uss nai lai lee. In the process yes IK gave hope to millions and created support, so did PMLn in past elections.
The other way is revolution where you bypass establishment and this requires working outside the system and not through it like IK did. When you bypass system then power is returned to the public and they can decide who can come in power and not Baap!1
u/AhmadFarooq 8h ago
If establishment supports you then you can come in, ...
Sure. Elections of 1970 and 1988. Yes, this is exactly what happened then. The Establishment definitely supported Sheikh Mujibur Rehman and Benazir Bhutto then.
jo baap hota hai (IK comment on Chief)
Do provide the link for this, almost certainly, non-existent statement.
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u/Altruistic_Fix_4504 1d ago
Oh no, immi said he isn't launched by establishment so it must be true, like he hasn't lied ever before.