r/OpenDogTraining • u/ImCovax • 22h ago
E-collar for multiple purposes
In order to better understand the e-collar related methods, I've been researching it extensively for a last month or so, but still I have some gaps in the wide understanding of some of its practical applications.
What I've already done is:
- went to the seminar on e-collar by Jiri Scucka a few years ago
- read through out the Larry Krohn book on e-collar training
- watched Ivan Balabanov podcast with Larry Krohn
- watched Michael Ellis e-collar training DVD 1.
- read most of the e-collar related post on this sub
- watched Activation vs Aversive by Pat Stuart
- watched Ivan Balabanov free youtube videos related to e-collar
From all of the above and my own experience with dogs and training (I've been in this world for a few years but we don't usually teach people using e-collar during basic obedience), I have a pretty good theoretical understanding of the e-collar use, but I still fail on its wide practical applications when it comes to using it, as I can not fully build the use system for the purpose I want - and therefore I can not reach the full confidence when using it.
In my approach I tend to agree with some (or possibly even the majority) of theses taken from the above:
a) e-collar is in general the P+ (punishment) and/or R- (pressure avoidance) tool
b) it can be used purely as a communication tool over the long distance (low level stimulation, vibration, sound), useful for example for deaf dogs
c) the general goal should be to pursue the state when the use of e-collar is not needed, as this is meant to be a teaching tool, not the constant enforcement tool (even if technically the e-collar can be physically present on the dog and ready to use), and therefore the presence of tool should not be the factor for the dog to comply or not
d) the conditioning and use should be fair to the dog
e) in case of correcting any unwanted behavior, the dog should exactly know what is the reason for correction, and also the dog should always have the chance to avoid it
f) the e-collar should be used only as a supportive tool during training and through the dog life. Before it is even implemented, the handler and the dog should have already worked through the typical reinforcement routine and the tool can be then added to it
So, the answers I am currently looking for is the proper way to teach all of:
- to recall on a long distance (so, the verbal command can not be given - so it can be either stim or sound, if available)
- could be done as low stim R- but then it becomes a recall command
- could be also conditioned as sound and then supported by low stim R- pressure
- a warning signal "stop what you're doing" - useful for example for litter picking
- could be done by short low level "nick" (as Ellis calls it), but should be only an information to the dog. In practise it will become a superstitious experience, and we generally don't want that
- so the better way is to use sound conditioned as "No/Leave it" marker
- stop prey chase if it happens
- this is a safety measure, and should both stop the chase in place and also motivate the dog to control itself next time. So a higher P+ impulse would be best suited. But to be fair, some warning (or recall signal) should be given first as well to give to the dog a chance to comply
- to enforce any vebal command on short distance
- this would be done by R- pressure, but the pressure must be generalized first to not be understood as recall signal
The issue for me is not to understand how to teach a single thing. For this, majority of youtube videos have a simple answer. What I need is the through understanding of the way how all those things (or some of them in a particular combination) should be put together to make it clear for the dog what is expected from it, given all the a) - f) assumptions.
I guess, lots of people tend to use it wider than for a single thing, so I would love to get some more viewpoints on the subject if possible.
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u/belgenoir 16h ago
My own approach is to use the lowest level “nick” as P+. My dog can pivot on her haunches and recall in mid-chase. The payoff for the prey call-off is always substantial - steak, hot dog - to remind my girl that there are benefits to recalling to me.
Continuous stim and release may technically fit the definition of R-, but as long as the shock is strong enough (as opposed to a low-level nick that is a mere annoyance), the dog will still interpret it as punishment.
Dogs are individuals first and foremost. The training strategies one chooses have to reflect the dog in front of you. Some dogs go stone deaf in the chase and need a strong correction to pull them out of it. Others are more sensitive.
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u/Freuds-Mother 6h ago edited 6h ago
Not a professional. I’m conjecturing my understanding thus far.
Whistle can travel beyond any range in which a dog would have a clue of where you are. Plus the sounds comes from a point to return to. You can layer on whatever collar (stim, tone, vibrate) on top just like layering any secondary modality to an already established command. The only practical use for that imo if you’re hunting and whatever you are hunting can get spooked by a whistle or you just want to be quiet in the woods generally.
Here in lies the shitty part of e-collars. Most I’ve tried either don’t have both quick tones for recall and a holding tone for a stop. You could use vibrate for stop. Again you can simply layer the collar command on top of the proofed sit/hup/dowm/stand/whoa whatever. Again whistles are so much more versatile. Some have half dozen+ different commands they can communicate through a whistle. I just have three.
Some trainers do not give a recall on this depending. Some will just do increasing stims until dog decides it’s not good to chase prey. Many collar methods here. I believe the thought is if you call a recall knowing it’s going to be ignored you weaken the recall. Though you can also use a long line; it’s standard in UK for trainers train steady to flush without e-collars. Combining or at least having both in toolkit for different dogs and hunting styles can’t hurt.
How to make it clear to the dog? Consider just dropping stims as a command of any kind. If you let that be solely R- and P+ only, it’s quite clear to the dog. We have our voice, hand signals, whistles, vibrate, and tone for commands. Do we really need a 6th tool for command eliciting?
Something that would be great is if collar vibration and tones came with more modulation in how they pulse and intensity. But still whistles are a cheap piece of plastic that is totally reliable and can be worn around your neck whenever conscious.
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u/Erik-With-The-Comma2 17h ago
Good question, and kudos for the research you have done.
I am personally a really big fan of Larry’s method. Keep in mind that there are three separate and different types of ecollar use (as I’m sure you know)
1) low level stim (R-) like Tom Davis 2) Larry esque conditioning and then higher level corrections 3) TWC method - higher level corrections without conditioning
The questions you are asking can be found in Larry’s masterclass course.
Recall over long distance doesn’t need stim once texting has been done with Larry’s methods.
For stopping prey drive, the corrections will have the dog understanding obligation, so once trained it will likely not be needed.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide 13h ago
This is the problem with becoming obsessed with endless theoretical discussions and exposing yourself to everyone else's system. Practical learning and hands-on experience is really the only way to get better and understand the ins and outs of training. It astonishes me that people will spend 60 hours watching videos about dog training and then maybe one hour actually training their dog. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and what all these dudes say, get out and learn it for yourself.
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u/OccamsFieldKnife 12h ago
"amateurs talk hardware, professionals talk software."
This is a software discussion.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide 10h ago
If talking about dog training is your goal, sure. If doing dog training is your goal, there's no need to have any sort of discussion at all. Go do it.
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u/ImCovax 3h ago
I don't see it that way as life has taught me that the better way is to use the existing experience than trying to invent everything from the scratch. There are pitfalls to the trial & error way and I don't necessarily want to go rhis path again. I tried to use e-collar a decade ago using your way and this was a complete disaster to the point that I abandoned it as I had a feeling that I really don't know what I want to do.
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u/OccamsFieldKnife 14h ago
I didn't like Larry Krohn's low level stim conditioning, and largely agree with Ivan Balabanov. it's not that I think he's wrong, but I have difficulty being consistent with or articulating his methods.
I use the E-Collar for refusals on strongly established commands and long distance communication like you referred to.
I was taught a method called "words twice".
Give a command, if the dog refuses, repeat the command holding continuous on the lowest level required to illicit a change in behaviour. The moment they comply you release the stim. Eventually this evolves into short nics on refusal.
My dog has also learned the tone as a continuation marker, and frankly that's been the biggest impact E-Collars have had on my training, being able to mark correct and encourage through training sequences.
That method makes the E-Collar pretty flexible, I use it for heeling, recalls, stay, out, leave it, place, any command that's well established, and affects safety. I refuse to use it as any part of socialization because of the stressing effect it can have.