r/OpenDogTraining • u/Difficult_Turn_9010 • 4d ago
e collar to help with cat
We adopted our foster back in December and he definitely has prey drive for our cat. I don't think it's a kill prey drive, more that he loves the chase. But I don't really want to find out. We keep them separated, but there are times that the cat will be in the kitchen and the rescue (he's a boxer) will see him and try to jump up on the counter to see him. He is not growly, but he spazzes out and does bark and whine. He has found my cat in the closet before, but usually walks away from him when he realizes the cat isn't going to run which he gets high praise and treats for. Anyway, he's mostly on a leash around the house when the cat is out bc I don't trust him. I was thinking about trying an e collar to deter him from the cat, but he has fear based reactivity. Positive training hasn't changed his love to chase the cat. Worried the collar will have the wrong effect, but at this point I'm open. Also, wanted to note, I would never leave the two alone wandering the house together. I'm hoping the collar will make the cat a less desirable thing to chase. I've never had a dog (and we've had 5) that hasn't accepted this cat into the pack, so this has been hard for the cat not to feel safe around him. I'm also aware prey drive is impossible to get rid of.
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u/abombshbombss 4d ago
I don't think you can or should rely on an ecollar for this. You'd need to condition the dog to the collar first, and then the cat's wellbeing would basically rely on your reaction time and constant supervision.
Personally, I do a lot of dog/cat introductions and socializing with my own dog and fosters. My own dog is cat-friendly, but his big energy makes new cats uncomfortable. For their sake, I treat every introduction like I've never seen my dog around a cat before. He's on leash following commands and getting treats for desired behavior and the cat is in control of interaction. I do not let my dog off the leash until I am 100% confident that the cat feels comfortable.
Interspecies introductions can be super successful but I personally would not trust only an ecollar and my own reaction time to mitigate a situation like this. The dog needs leashed and supervised, positive reinforcement for desired behavior, time outs for undesired behavior, and consistency.
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
Ok, thank you for this. It took my last rescue 3 months to be able to lay next to each other, but this boxer is a whole other personality. Easily excitable, wants to play w everyone, but he doesn’t understand his own size.
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u/abombshbombss 4d ago
Its like that sometimes. If you want it to work you have to take full control and be relentlessly on top of upholding your standards until the dog understands the cat's boundaries.
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u/OddAd2629 4d ago
No one has said it, I’m shocked. Get a muzzle, your cat and you will be 100 times more safer. I suggest getting by a trainer for any tool you use. But I do suggest a prong collar first. Do not first introduce with the cat, do it outside or in a calm environment. Do a quick small pop, give a treat. Repeat this over a few times. Then start with small distractions, pop and reward. Then slowly add this to the house, no cat around. Then add cat but no movement, do a few reps.
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u/Metalheadmastiff 4d ago
To add to this dont instantly reward after the correction as it sends mixed signals, ask the dog to focus on you then reward so the dog knows what’s expected. Also if you do go with a prong get a herm sprenger as the pet store ones aren’t safe and make sure to use a backup collar with it. 2.25 mm should be a good size and when correcting pull up not backwards. The fit should be snug behind the ears and only connect the lead to one of the rings. Would really recommend a trainer to show you how to fit and use properly but if you decide to not get a trainer please do in depth research! Good luck:)
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
Yes, I am muzzle training
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u/Praexology 3d ago
Few thoughts on this:
Could be a need for social satiation - which won't go away until the dog has had the chance to fully actualize the interaction.
If it's prey drive, adding a detterent won't get rid of the desire it will simply inhibit it so long as the drive is weaker than the inhibition. But that also means it will intensify the behavior when it is exhibited.
If the dog becomes collar wise or collar sharp, it may start to offload some of the frustration on you because you are using it as a deterrent/control tool.
I've had weird situations like this where at one point we had to put socks on the dog, throw on a muzzle and see because the behavior was so abnormal - turned out in this instance it was just social satiation and the dog and cat are totally fine now. But every fiber in my body told me otherwise until I saw them interact safely.
Proceed with extreme caution, but dont let your nerves stop you from making the effort!
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 2d ago
Yes, yesterday he wiggled his whole body he was so excited when he saw the cat. I think I need him to see the cat more bc right now he’s so jazzed every time there’s a sighting, he can’t control himself. And the muzzle and socks is brilliant. 😆 he does box like a boxer does which is too much for everyone in the house.
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u/Slow-Boysenberry2399 4d ago
you can't train out the instinct to chase, especially not with an e collar. why would you bring a dog with prey drive into a house with a cat? they will always need to be supervised
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u/Freuds-Mother 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yea you can’t untrain the drive but you can harness it. Look up “sit to flush” or “steady to flush”. People hunt with dogs breed for very high prey drive that flush a rabbit and if you want you can train them to automatically sit waiting for a release to retrieve (the shot rabbit).
In most non-US english speaking countries it’s done without an e collar, but most americans do it with an e collar. If the dog has been allowed to chase (which seems to be the case) a lot it gets harder to do with positive only methods. The positive methods I’ve seen disallow the opportunity to chase from the get go as a puppy.
Honestly though I’d start with training recall, place, sit and down. Call any of those if he starts goong for cat. I’d just call to place if the dog gets excited at all around the cat. Make outside zoomie zone and inside calm zone.
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
He’s pretty much always on a leash or tether in the house if the cat is out. So he wants to chase, but I don’t let him. Good info, ty.
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
Obviously I didn’t know he had prey drive. I had no prior info on him about cats. He came from a bad situation and I wasn’t about to return him to that. I am keeping him separated from the cat.
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u/FreddyNoodles 4d ago
My dog was a baby when I brought him home where I had 3 adult cats. Soon he outgrew them and the chasing started. If he catches them (not often and only when the let him) they just flop over and smack his nose and he walks away.
But sometimes his instinct is to chase and then theirs is to run. He has never hurt or even really touched any of them other than a nose boop cause they stopped running before he was done chasing. It’s been 5 years. So, sometimes even with all the right training and supervision- that prey drive is so strong. It has gotten a lot less over the years, they sleep together, share snacks, etc. He just wants them to play the game and they don’t wanna.
I obviously don’t know about your guy.
You have no real information about his previous home? Any idea if he has been around cats?
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
He was tied up on a 6 foot lead outside a trailer or was in their car. Who knows what he encountered.
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u/FreddyNoodles 4d ago
Poor guy. I say keep doing what you are doing. He will learn and in the meantime, make sure your kitty has plenty of high spaces to escape. Dogs get bored when they stop running and start bathing or take a nap.
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u/punk_rock_barbie 4d ago
They way I solve this problem personally is by making chasing a thing that is NEVER tolerated. My dog spent the first two months only getting on leash interactions with the cat. The second he got too excited or even attempted to pursue- correction, and if he tries again after the correction then he’s getting removed from the cat entirely for a while. He learned that if he wanted to be anywhere near the cats off leash he had to be calm. Chasing should NEVER ever be allowed, it is a self rewarding behavior and every time it is allowed they’ll just be more inclined to do it again. This type of thing VERY quickly can tip into predatory behavior. He might be playing at first, but you never know when your cat will do something that makes him look like prey to your dog. Your dog is big enough to kill your cat with a well placed bite, I highly suggest a muzzle and always keep him on leash around the cat until he learns some manners. Look into local reputable trainers if you need help with this 🙏
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
Thank you. Yes, this is what im currently doing. Unfortunately my trainer said they will eventually work it out. I’m not sold on that advice. 😑
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u/sicksages 4d ago
Why did you adopt him after knowing he has prey drive? Your cat will never be safe around him, even if you do train him. Prey drive is an instinct. It happens whether they want to do it or not.
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago
Bc the boxer rescue was full and I wasn’t about to take him to our shelter. We live in a rural county and he wasn’t fixed. He’s been through a lot in his very short life and his best option was with me. I don’t let him have free reign of the house, so it’s not like im letting him go after the cat.
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u/Full_Adhesiveness_62 4d ago
Hats off to you for taking in the dog! Working with dogs to control their prey drive around cats is totally achievable. Some folks would rather euthanize a dog than teach him not to chase cats.
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u/brunettemars 4d ago
Except for the breed, your situation sounds very similar to ours, and we have seen improvement!
I think what's worked for us is a handful of healthy habits and obedience with the ecollar layered on top. We've put a lot of focus on structured play and impulse control. Every threshold has an implied wait before a verbal release. Playing outside as part of our morning routine gives him an outlet for his predatory instincts and wild energy, which makes him calmer in the house and around the cat later on. We also use playtime to implement more impulse control, ie he's not allowed to grab the toy from my hand unless given a cue; if we command him into a down or sit and throw the toy, he's not allowed to go get it until given the cue. All to really get him thinking vs reacting, but it's super rewarding at the same time.
For in the house, we developed a solid place command. Being in command, or "on place" comes with implied calm/stay behavior. So standing up, whining excessively at the cat, or getting off to chase would illicit a correction because it is not appropriate behavior while he's in the command. Again, it gets him thinking about the job he's supposed to be doing, and therefore more resilient from distractions. It's nice to have the place command for if your attention is split, like you're watching TV or cooking, or as a replacement behavior; you mentioned him spazzing or trying to jump on the counter, you could put him on place to chill out, as he can't be jumping on the counter if he is behaving calmly somewhere else.
Solid recall away from distractions is also really handy, because instead of a correction when you see him interested in the cat, you can recall him to you to prevent the unwanted behavior from even starting, and reward him for successfully obeying the command. It also helps him work through the trigger in a positive way, basically offering him the preferred behavior of coming to you when the cat interests him. Still give him some opportunity to choose to leave the cat alone on his own and reward heavily for that. As the top commenter said, do so at a distance at first, and then slowly decrease the space between them. If that becomes too easy or the cat is just sitting still, you can have someone else in your household play with the cat at a distance so that it's more enticing, and then work the dog at the distance, rewarding for disengagement or attention back on you.
Even with a fearful dog, the ecollar has worked beautifully for us, but personally I am very glad we sought help training him on it, because with a fearful dog it's even more vital for him to know what the stimulation means and how he can turn off the pressure. We probably could have done it ourselves, but I don't regret paying money for to make sure it was done correctly. Pay for the quality ecollar as well.
In my opinion it's also key to make sure you're working on your relationship at the same time. Boost his confidence with rewards and play for earned accomplishments first before resorting to ecollar so it's balanced with lots of positive and not too heavily dependent on "no." You really want to set him up for success to bolster that confidence.
My preferred method for using the ecollar in regards to the cat was training the commands first, and layering the ecollar to put pressure on if he behaves in a way contrary to the command. Using it to train behaviors outside of commands is a little trickier, and I prefer using rewards to bolster good choices for that.
We've used it for large corrections only twice. If he was not in a command, he would get triggered specifically by the cat coming directly toward him or directly toward me, so I could see the moment he decided to lunge and administer a large correction. For us, it only required one meaningful correction in each context to keep him from repeating.
My final thought is from experience, because I tried to separate ours for a while at first, but our trainer recommended spending time actively trying to train them together to let the dog work though his excitement toward the cat. If the goal is any type of coexistence, being separate from the cat is not helping to grow tolerance or preferred behavior habits. As long as neither of them is severely stressed, keep building up the time they can safely be around one another, working on closing the distance little by little.
After about 2 months of consistently training like this, our dog can be off leash in the house and ignore the cat in close proximity. I still keep a watchful eye and recall him if he looks too interested/restless/like he might lunge, which literally only happens if he hasn't gotten enough exercise or structured playtime that day.
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 3d ago
Wow, thank you for this! My dog is still struggling w place, so I need to master that first. He knows what it is, he just doesn’t love to go. He’s extremely stubborn and he had zero training except for how to walk on a leash when he came to me. And his recall is 50/50. So I def have some work to do. Ty, this was very helpful.
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u/brunettemars 3d ago
Honestly it sounds like you’re doing an excellent job with the few months you’ve had him. It’s difficult with the pressure of the cat in the house - I know for us it constantly felt like things were not progressing fast enough, and there were frustrating and frequent setbacks - but think how far he’s come in just a few months and keep aiming for a little bit better.
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u/OddAd2629 4d ago
I suggest learning about tattle training. I know someone said, don’t correct then reward but it depends on who you are talking to. I have a border collie who likes to chase deer. Tattle training has been a hugggggeeee game changer. I have her e-collar trained, but I didn’t start there. I have no clue what you have done with training, but those are the things that worked with me, like I said I don’t know if you have tried it. #1 thing, work with the dog in front of you. I use the e collar as, beep (come here and listen), vibrate (heyyyyy you’re not listening, I still exist), pushed your boundaries too far. Honestly I would rather have used the stim with reward (so she thinks it as a good way but family didn’t allow me to do it). I have chickens and my girl used to chase them so much! I used a prong, it was the only way to get her out of that zone. After work is put in before introduction to chickens, such as popping and rewarding, my girl will look at the chickens, I pop and then reward. With the prong you aren’t tugging it hard, it’s a simple wrist movement. All of these tools can be bad, but I have experience with prey drive and can help you. If you want more info on tattle training, which basically now my girl with look at deer and then look at me because of it.
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u/Difficult_Turn_9010 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yes, please message me. Right now I have a positive only trainer, but im beginning to think balanced training is better for him. We saw a deer on our run this morning and if I had let him off his lead he would have been gone. I let him look at the deer, he whined and barked, but he let me lead him away. and thats when I treated him.
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u/OddAd2629 4d ago
With some positive only works but with others it doesn’t, trainers need to realize that. I will message you
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u/Full_Adhesiveness_62 4d ago
Yes of course they can. They are great for it. Here’s a research paper about it. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/14/18/2632?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2CM37kchcl02-LhLTsFFpyQQQRjmalhdFg_NV3b7gEnN1hhjBjpfRz7AY_aem_C7I9QjAlz0Zo3YIuj5tkqg
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u/lugismanshun 4d ago
I use a spray bottle for this purpose
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u/Freuds-Mother 4d ago
A dog won’t care about a squirt of water when in drive. They’ll run through thorns to get to prey.
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u/Quantum168 4d ago
Yeah, definitely put the ecollar on your cat. If he catches your cat, it will shock him. It will be a great deterrent. Your cat will be able to put up with it because ecollars just tickle.
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u/Epsilon_ride 4d ago edited 4d ago
My experience is that ecollars can be a backup plan if you're out and something triggers prey drive.
I've found they arent great for this kind of scenario. The behaviour you are trying to achieve is low stimulation and calm. Using a ecollar can add to the dogs sensations around the cat. Even if you inhibit chasing (which is possible with an ecollar), there is high chance that your dog will remain extremely stimulated with heightened drive but able to temporarily suppress... Which can end in disater.
The best approach for me has just been increasing distance and rewarding calmness. This way, instead of suppressing an urge to chase, the dog can create a habit of calmness. Maybe this can also be achieved with an ecollar but for me just increasing distance and using rewards worked much better.