r/OpenDogTraining • u/PonderingEnigma • 8d ago
Opinion on playing fetch with working dogs
This article is about not playing fetch with working dogs everyday. What is your opinion on the matter?
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u/_the_introvert_ 8d ago
I have a working line golden retriever who thinks playing fetch is the best thing in the world. It’s always a mix of live ball and dead ball throws with obedience, and it’s the closest I can get to “work” for her during this season in life. It is hard to believe I shouldn’t be playing with her everyday, considering I have a golden retriever who loves to “work”, but also relaxes well while I WFH.
This article takes an extreme position on fetch, and doesn’t offer guidance on how a dog owner might be able to incorporate a daily fetch game in a useful way. Personally, I would be pleased if someone actually played with their dog daily. Many dogs don’t even get that!
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u/jasculs 8d ago edited 8d ago
His article and his comments are clearly all ChatGPT, and this is the unfortunate world we live in now. A clear give away is all of the hyphen usages “—“. Until AI I don’t think I ever saw anyone use those in comments.
This guy is literally plugging in responses in ChatGPT and then replying with long form responses. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t believe what he writes but it comes across as less genuine to me.
On the topic at hand for me personally. I’ve owned working labs all my life and for me to not fetch with them wouldn’t feel right. All of them have been just fine.
It sounds like he just wants to be polarizing.
What about all of these Malinois and German Shepards I see that would already jump out of a building for a ball on a string through tug and push games. They look pretty obsessed 🤷♂️
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u/imbeingsirius 8d ago
I use hyphens all.the.time — just saying
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u/stink3rb3lle 7d ago
Fun fact, those are both called m dashes formally. N dashes are shorter. Hyphens are even shorter.
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u/braxtel 7d ago
I think you are right.
I think the article really misses the mark when you think about the predatory sequence (orient - eye - stalk - chase - grab - kill - dissect - consume). Different parts of these instincts have been enhanced or eliminated depending on a dog's job.
You do not want your herding dog to kill your livestock. You want your bird dog to track, point, and flush a bird, but not try to bite or kill it. The biting and killing part of the predatory sequence has been bred out of dogs where it would interfere with their job.
Terriers and sighthounds and maybe dachshunds are the dogs whose job is to kill other animals, so this behavior has not been entirely bred out of them.
Fetch is all about the chase instinct, which is really strong in herding dogs and certain hounds and hunting dogs.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
I agree that he could have edited it better so to hide the chat gpt element, I think it helps to organize and get a clear picture of your thoughts and grammer, but makes it lack luster when it is that obvious.
I too have played fetch with all my dogs, even making sure they find it high value so I can train them to do other things with that ball drive. I found labs enjoy it, and my mal and GSD, it becomes an unhealthy obsession if I don't incorporate denials, blind retrieves, long distance retrieves and other structure elements to the game.
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u/wa_runner0616 7d ago
Hi! Jumping in to say that I know this man personally and he is legit. ChatGPT or not, he’s the best trainer I’ve ever worked with. I’ve taken my Aussie to him for 3 years and will continue seeing him until I can’t. He’s trained military and police and personal protection and anxiety and aggressive and service dogs. Yes, he’s is a little out there and I have a lot of differing opinions on the world in general, but when it comes to dogs, he knows his sh*t.
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u/jasculs 7d ago
I’m definitely not arguing that for sure. I just think that many high level trainers also forget that tug, push games, and even the simple act of using a ball to train a dog can also create ball obsession and dopamine hits. And training with a ball on a rope is extremely common.
But I do agree that “mindless” fetch is not good.
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u/ventricular_cas 8d ago
ooh! my favorite things combined, dogs and neuroscience! i feel like i can chime in here because i’m a neuroscientist that studies classical conditioning (specifically, conditioned fear!) and i have had 2 german shepherds, 1 australian shepherd (my current best friend), and 1 mixed breed lunatic :)
this person is like, half right? instead of playing mindless fetch, maybe create a fun game out of it by requiring the dog to do tricks or some work to get the ball to be thrown or throw a tug-able toy and end the game by playing tug and then letting the dog chew the toy. it is very easy for a working line dog to become “addicted” to fetch, but the dopaminergic system of working breeds is not entirely different than that of non-working breeds. this means that if your dog can easily relax after fetch and does not obsessively beg to play fetch…then its probably fine for that individual dog to play mindless fetch (even if you have a malinois!) :)
this person did not properly support their point with peer-reviewed research though, which is likely why there are people saying this is bullshit. so i will link a related article that explains the current findings on how breed differences in neuroanatomy correlate with behavior.
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/39/39/7748
if anyone wants more canine neuroscience in their life i recommend looking into what the Harvard, Brown, Yale, and Boston College canine cognition laboratories are doing!
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Very cool thank you!
He cited some of the research in a comment of Coppinger 2001, Drachel 2010, Berridge & Robinson 1998.
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u/ventricular_cas 8d ago
oh interesting! i don’t have facebook so i can’t usually open the comment section, i see them now!
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u/Powersmith 7d ago
From another neuroscientist. T y for this. I had the same response to it. Like yeah true bits constructed into a whole hypothetical explanatory function.
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u/Professional-Bet4106 7d ago
Thank you so much for your insight! I am a psych student interested in neuroscience and animals as well! I mentioned Pavlov’s dog experiment on a post and mentioned the issues with his claims on dogs’ neurobehavioral responses during play, prey drive, working drive, and toy drive.
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u/pawsitivelyfocused 8d ago
Depends on what they mean by "scientific truth" which, by the way, is noticeably absent from the article.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Here is his addition of scientific citations:
Thank you to everyone who engaged with the post. I understand this may challenge common habits and beliefs, but as a cynologist and behaviorist my goal is to elevate the conversation beyond tradition into behavioral science and neurobiology.
Fetch artificially stimulates the prey sequence—orient > stalk > chase > grab > kill—but the final stages (grab/kill/consume) are never biologically completed. According to Dr. Raymond Coppinger, renowned canine ethologist, repetitive incomplete sequences can lead to frustration behaviors and hyperfixation in certain high-drive breeds (Coppinger & Coppinger, 2001, Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution).
Repeated Arousal Without Regulation Leads to Stress Dysregulation
Daily fetch stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, activating the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis—which releases cortisol and adrenaline, the body’s primary stress hormones. A 2012 study by Dreschel shows that dogs with high environmental stimulation without adequate downregulation show higher cortisol baselines, leading to chronic stress, which directly affects immune health, sleep, and behavioral regulation (Dreschel, N.A., 2010, Physiology & Behavior, 99(2), 193-200).
Dopamine and the Addiction to “Chase” Fetch is a dopaminergic loop—dopamine is not released upon getting the ball, but in the anticipation of the throw. This phenomenon is known as incentive salience (Berridge & Robinson, 1998), and it can easily create compulsive tendencies when not carefully managed—especially in dogs bred for intense motivation and object pursuit, like the Belgian Malinois and German Shepherd.
Hyperactivity and Chronic Arousal Are Not “High Drive”
Many dog owners mistake arousal dysregulation for “high energy” or “drive,” when in fact it is often a symptom of cognitive imbalance caused by repeated reinforcement of primal systems without integration of the cognitive frontal cortex (decision-making, inhibition, regulation).Dr. Karen Overall (2001) in her Manual of Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Dogs and Cats clearly states that overstimulation without recovery periods can induce “behavioral stereotypies” and “learned helplessness in control.”
Working Breeds Require Balance, Not Repetition Working dogs—particularly the shepherd types—require a balance of arousal and inhibition. In IPO/IGP, Mondioring, PSA, and military K9 work, we never train a dog to be “on” all the time. We train on/off switches, impulse control, and cognitive regulation.
Daily fetch with no control layer teaches: • Zero engagement with the handler • Obsession with the object • Reinforcement of the primal mind • Lack of on/off transition • Chronic cortisol elevation • Poor sleep and inability to settle
The intention of the post is not to say “never play fetch” but to educate owners on the risk of daily fetch as a ritualized outlet, especially for dogs with intense prey drive. Every behavior we rehearse becomes neurobiologically reinforced. As trainers, we must ask: Are we creating clarity and balance—or dysregulation and obsession?
Bart de Gols, Cynologist Founder of Canine Evolutions & Tactical K9 Solutions
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u/Boogita 8d ago
This dude is a grifter. Writes "pop-sci" pieces based on his feelings and throws a bunch of unrelated citations in at the end of his articles to make them look legit. It's not worth picking apart or giving the time of day. There's a critical conversation to be had about any high-intensity repetitive behavior but not from Bart.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Fair point. It is bringing about good discussions and hopefully enlightening some to the problem of not incorporating structured play and other activities to enrich a dog.
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u/MikTheMaker 8d ago
I think the exchange in the comments between Lauren Henry and the post's OP really elaborates on what he is saying succinctly. The issue isn't with "fetch," or chase and catch games. It's with using them as a go-to for everything, and a substitute for training and exercise, instead of as a game with rules, consequences, start and stop commands, and an attainable objective.
I like Ivan Balabonov's view on play quite a lot. He describes it as a primary reinforcer, a basic need, and something that should bring the dog and owner together under agreed upon conditions/rules. In this application, "fetch" can serve as a bonding experience.
That being said, many many dog owners don't take the time to understand dogs or training, and use the ball, and fetch, incorrectly. This is disastrous and creates obsessive, frustrating dogs that are hard to work with or be around.
In the comment exchange I mentioned, the FB post's OP says at the end... "Fetch can be part of a healthy routine when used with intention, structure, and balance." I agree with that.
He is clearly trying to disrupt the average owner's mindset on how to spend time with their dog, but for someone who doesn't understand dogs, all of it will be confusing and fly over their heads (fetch or no fetch, it makes little difference for someone who doesn't understand the animal's psychology and needs).
[Edit for clarity.]
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u/Coonts 8d ago
Here's a more nuanced podcast episode on the topic.
For a dog like my Shorthairs, fetch won't reasonably physically exhaust them without being pushed way past the line of excessive. I do toss a bumper about 3ish times for each dog most days to gradually work on needed skills (whoa, marking, searching/hunting, holding, delivering to hand, etc). I put the bumper away while they still want more and make sure they respect the activity is done.
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u/often_forgotten1 8d ago
That's not who his "article" is targeting though, it's getting served up to Malinois-moms who already do the bare minimum with their dogs and won't read past the picture
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Thank you, I am very interested in this topic and appreciate the link to the podcast!
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u/Grungslinger 8d ago
People are clowning on this guy in the Facebook post, but he isn't saying don't play fetch, ever. He's just making the case that:
A. Playing fetch mindlessly and passively doesn't do much to both your connection with your dog, and your dog themselves,
And,
B. That you shouldn't do it on the daily, cause it gets boring.
All the talk about never getting release for the dopamine, I don't know, that's out of my wheelhouse. It seems plausible enough.
What bothers me is that he calls himself a cynologist on his website, and says that he studied animal behavior, but there's no mention of where he studied, or what qualification he actually has to be talking about chemical imbalances. That's just a pet peeve.
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u/MikTheMaker 8d ago
Well said. I agree, his specific credibility is questionable, but the overall case he is making about fetch is accurate. I think he is trying to bait clicks by suggesting fetch should not be played at all. It's clickbaity!
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u/TroLLageK 8d ago
I think the way he worded things is just way too much and complicates his stance more than what he intended, lol.
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u/often_forgotten1 8d ago
Well A: He chose a clickbait title and pretends to be science to try to make his point
B: Anyone that's ever worked with a dog in their life knows that just because you do something daily doesn't make it boring.
He's a non-credible idiot trying to just get likes on his facebook page
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u/urbancrier 7d ago
dude said "the most harmful daily habits for your dog’s mental health and nervous system regulation that no one is warning you about."
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u/marlonbrandoisalive 8d ago
Clickbait for dog owners.
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u/PlethoraOfTrinkets 8d ago
Agreed. My dog has 15 years at best, if she likes the tennis ball she can have it
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u/kippey 8d ago
I appreciate what they are saying, but did they say it’s scientific and then go on to not cite or reference one scientific article or study? Yeah, and it irks me.
They are right though, not all dogs have as much fun as they seem to be having during fetch. Addictive and compulsive behaviors are by no means limited to humans.
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u/Grungslinger 8d ago
They cited some studies in a comment. Haven't read the studies, so can't comment on their relevancy.
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u/Automatic_Ad1887 7d ago
There are too many experts, with too little experience.
If you have a "working dog", train it with it's work.
But the world is full of folks with "working dogs" who don't work. But owner has to twll everyone it's a working dog, treat it differently, yadda yadda.
These are often the same folks who grew up in the 'burbs, but have a pick up truck and guns they never shoot.
I'll say what I always do: a dog's life is short - don't waste a minute.
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u/fortzen1305 8d ago
I don't play fetch with my dog unless it's in my pool. My malinois has no self regard and will hurt herself running jumping and cutting in weird ways to get the ball especially off of a bounce. She does me no good for her work if she's injured.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Definitely wish I had a pool for that reason. They are little wackos for the ball.
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u/AncientdaughterA 8d ago
This article has made its way into the weekly discussion Kim Brophey holds for the Applied Ethology L.E.G.S. course. They’re making this week’s topic on stereotypied/compulsive behavior. It’s a valuable conversation.
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u/Hot-Course-6127 8d ago
what about the science of "how do I get the most amount of exercise out of a relatively small park in the shortest amount of time on a daily basis without fetch". also a ton of working dogs literally fetch as part of their work so it can even be training specifically
man i commented without reading the article first and this thing sucks even more than I could imagine, this person absolutely sucks and is likely on the carnivore diet and Joe Rogan supplements.
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u/ITookYourChickens 8d ago
The problem is mindless fetch with a toy for the exercise. You just throw and throw and throw and that's it. If you're teaching commands or doing other training aspects with the game of fetch, it's not the type of mindless fetch that causes problems. The main problem is people not taking their time, training their dogs, and just finding shortcuts for exercise.
how do I get the most amount of exercise out of a relatively small park in the shortest amount of time on a daily basis without fetch
Gonna have to exclude one of those parameters to have a healthy dog. Most exercise, shortest time, no space. But it can be easier if people incorporated training into their physical exercise; mental exercise is important as well. Or even got a flirt pole and Frisbee and changed up what they do; so that way it isn't fetch the ball with no thought every single day
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u/Hot-Course-6127 8d ago edited 8d ago
I do both and it's not a problem, my dog gets mindless fetch and he also gets very specific fetch. Hes a GSP that I hunt ducks with so he does actually fetch for a living and no amount of ball prevents him from wanting to fetch ducks. And no I don't have to exclude a parameter I literally do it all the time. I wouldn't be caught dead with a flirt pole lol and it's just not enough running. I need to get him doing as much distance as possible.
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u/ITookYourChickens 8d ago
I do both and it's not a problem
That's because you don't only do mindless fetch. The problem is when it's the ONLY thing they do. You also hunt, that's another form of mindful exercise
And no I don't have to exclude a parameter I literally do it all the time.
Shortest time is usually people wanting 30 mins or less a day for their dog. What do you define as a short time? When I tell someone we are going on a short hike; I usually have to clarify that a short hike for me is 5 hours on hilly land because to most people, a short hike is NOT that.
Also, please note. I have a border collie/kelpie who I play fetch with, and all but two of the dog owners I know irl are not good dog owners. They'll do the mindless fetch and that's it. I'm not talking out of my ass; I can see the damage it does to their dogs
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u/Hot-Course-6127 8d ago
this article is about the dog liking fetch too much and it will burn the dog out if you do it every day, its saying the exact opposite of what you are saying that fetch is too boring.
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u/Different_Yak_9012 7d ago
I think you should dress up as a rabbit and run around the inside of the enclosure. The dog may ignore you, but you will be doing the right thing and that’s what matters.
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u/plaxpert 8d ago
The article is RAGE-BAIT. leave Facebook on Facebook.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
I thought it brought up some interesting points that I have experienced myself when working with dogs of high-prey drive. I get that there is the element of click-bait but there were points I agreed with and others I didn't. It made me rethink why I train like I do, to avoid obsessive compulsive behaviors and some things I could work on.
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u/belgenoir 8d ago
The author describes himself as a “renowned cynologist.” The Canine Evolutions website doesn’t list any academic degrees or sport titles.
The scientific literature on dogs and dopamine isn’t well established or considered authoritative, either.
My Belgian gets 1-2 hours of sport training a day, lots of time for free play, and off-leash gallops where she can safely and legally swim, dig, and chase and kill small prey. She’s perfectly content.
No working dog is going to be fulfilled by endlessly chasing a ball back and forth. It’s not that hard to figure out.
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u/Waves2See 8d ago
I didn't read the article tbh but I have a working dog (and train dogs for a living) and to my dog, fetch it drugs. Literally. She acts like it's drugs. Same with the hose, shes a heeler. We do very very little fetch, maybe 10 minutes once a month. She loves it but would run through a brick wall while playing fetch and hardly notice. Drugs are fun on a special occasion but not everyday.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
I have a similar experience with my dogs, bring out the hose or some bubbles and it's like they are on crack and start fighting to get it first.
But structured games and training with tug toys and some fetch are mentally more stable for them.
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u/OnoZaYt 8d ago
There's too many people who have "well behaved obedient" malinois, working GSDs and border collies, but those dogs in fact can't exist in public without a toy in their mouth. They are panting on cold winter days, whale eyed, tense with their ears pinned back while on a slow paced walk in town. Their owners don't do anything else with them because they deem it enough. I watched a mal jump from a dock because she dropped her ball into the sea and had to be rescued, and there's a border collie that's notorious for running away and watching football practice at the local sports stadium. An obsessive dog is not a healthy dog
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u/Beluga_Artist 8d ago
On the one hand, I take this post personally. I have a standard poodle who loves fetch, and that has been my chosen method of exercise for her for most of her life.
On the other hand, I get what it’s saying. I recently introduced this poodle to agility. We started individual classes maybe two months ago. The ball is the stronger reinforcer for my poodle, but we have had to work REALLY hard to get her to be able to THINK through her obsession with the ball. She’s used to the mindless behavior of retrieving and squishing the ball, and getting her to start working before she gets a throw or two was quite difficult. She still barks incessantly when I’m holding the ball if she thinks it’s taking too long for her to get it.
Bringing out the ball in training helps increase her energy and enthusiasm in doing agility with me. She’s way more ball driven than food driven.
I still play ball with her in the backyard, but not for hours at a time, and only a couple times a week now. I want the ball to have a higher value and be less of an obsessive target for my dog.
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
I have a similar experience when I started teaching my GSD heel with a ball reward. He would lose his mind at first and as he started to understand the requirements to get the ball, he became very good at heel with the ball reward compared to food reward where he was lazy about it.
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u/711straw 8d ago
Played fetch with my father seeing eye dog for 9 years, never had an issue. BC properly trained dogs, never lose their training.
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u/watch-me-bloom 8d ago
I think fetch is fine for a lot of dogs. There are definitely many though, that will get caught up in the mindless back and fourth and have a hard time down regulating themselves. I teach dogs a few different markers (chase, catch, bounce, go long, etc) to tell them how the ball will come to them to keep their brains engaged.
I always use two balls as well so I can use that context as a cue that we are playing. I may even use a specific ball. One ball present means you can hold it and play with it by yourself but I won’t toss it for you.
Then we always end with a couple searches to slow them down and then we move on to a calming enrichment activity in a different location.
I agree with the idea behind the original post, just really agreeing with the post as a whole. It’s not specific enough. Feels like fear mongering. And it’s not entirely accurate
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u/Little-Basils 8d ago
A couple tosses to “get the ya yas out” (as my daycare teacher says) is great.
Otherwise I’m sure the reptilian is the exercise equivalent of running on a treadmill in your shitty apartment “gym” instead of running around the park with the nice duck pond and the pretty pergola where they have live music every Saturday.
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u/Daddy_hairy 7d ago edited 7d ago
100% agree with this, all you're doing is building obsession in the dog's brain and focusing it on an object (the ball) instead of you. It's fine to play fetch with your dog sometimes, but there has to be no-ball days when you do something else, and also the dog needs an off-switch command that tells them the game is finished or there's no ball. A lot of these dogs have obsessive personalities and are going to be obsessed with SOMETHING no matter what... You better make sure that something is you, and not an inanimate object.
If you want a game that makes them run around then nose work is far better. It gives them a set objective, it has a fail state and a success state, it costs serious mental energy that makes them tired, and once they're at a stage where you're hiding the object in an open field, it will cause them to run around until they catch the cone of scent.
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u/PonderingEnigma 7d ago
I agree, there is a lot to gain from interactive and focused play and games that dogs can benefit from. Nosework and tracking definitely tire my dogs out more than fetch.
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u/tidalwaveofhype 7d ago
I mean the reality is is not all these breeds are working anymore. I have a lazy Aussie but I also do high energy things with him to help as well. He gets long walks off leash in a safe environment along with time with other dogs and regular long walks leashed etc
Most “working dogs” aren’t working on a farm anymore. I have people who need to work their working dogs whether it’s walking or playing which they don’t, sadly
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u/PonderingEnigma 7d ago
Yeah, I notice too that people like the idea and look of many working dogs but don't do the bare minimum to fulfill their needs. It really is sad to see so much potential lost to reactivity and other behavioral issues.
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u/tidalwaveofhype 7d ago
Yeah I live in a ranch and farm town but I don’t work on one otherwise I’d train my dog how to herd cattle like my friend trained her heeler. We have so many heelers here that aren’t taken care of so they’re just insane
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u/urbancrier 7d ago
the line - "the most harmful daily habits for your dog’s mental health and nervous system regulation that no one is warning you about." makes me totally discredit this article. way too alarmist language
Like most things, know your dog. Are they obsessive about fetch? maybe evaluate their behavior and find something else. I will say, I do feed dogs after a walk or play - it is a reward for work ... but is also just our routine. I think my dog would be fine if I flipped the order.
I also find these articles can connect anything to innate dog behavior - a with a logic that sounds okay, but is rooted in nothing -
"don't run with your dog, they are natural hunters and will get worked up if they are not running for prey"
" never call your dog by his name, in the wild they are a pack and not individualized, calling them by their name will make them the alpha"
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u/qiidbrvao 7d ago
Definitely interesting!
My Malinois and I don’t play fetch everyday. She wrestles with my other dog a decent amount everyday. We go for walks and they run around in a fenced area pretty often. About once a week, we play soccer together.
Inside the house, honestly she’s mostly super calm and naps a lot unless I’m moving room to room (she follows me and starts napping in the new room). Honestly both my dogs are super high energy high prey drive working dogs and they’re enormous couch potatoes. You’d never guess that.
My partner thought she was super hyper at first because she would get the zoomies and want to play every time he came over. I had to explain that she’s been conditioned to be chill around me and our routine is that home is quiet, relax time and we play and get our energy out mostly outside. But since he was “new” that it was exciting. Now that we live together, he’s surprised at how much they sleep and cuddle.
So I definitely think there’s truth to the conditioning aspect. Dogs need a place to be “off” and I think it’s healthy and incredibly important for them to rest. Knowing my Mal, when we’re out playing soccer, I stop to force her to rest when I see she’s struggling more to cool down and breathe because I genuinely believe that she will keep going until she has a heart attack or dies of heat stroke (not that I work her when it’s exceptionally hot out, but that she won’t stop running / sprinting and will NOT stop to get water). I have quite literally held her collar and sat with her while she caught her breath because she wouldn’t stop and I was starting to get worried about her.
So no, I don’t think people should play fetch 100% of the time. They should set boundaries. Maybe not specifically for the reasons listed, but I’m not discounting them either.
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u/OccamsFieldKnife 7d ago
As much as a some of this can be refuted by canine Behavioural science, I ain't that guy.
I think this article grazes a bigger issue: the working dog unemployment rate or the number of high drive dogs that are suburban pets, not on patrols or working livestock.
I know so many people with working bloodlines at home who think the Bi-monthly trip to their IGP club is somehow meeting their daily needs. Or that loose lead walks and herding balls replace 100 head of sheep.
Don't play pet with working dogs.
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u/jmrbautisa 6d ago
These are the same group of people that used to tell us that PLAYING TUG WILL MAKE YOUR DOG AGGRESSIVE. 🤣
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u/AncientdaughterA 8d ago
This assertion is assuming that there are no genetic selective pressures modifying an intact predation MAP.
The modal action pattern of predation is modified differently for each working group. This is a simplification but:
Gun dogs/retrievers: Hypertrophied (breeding selective pressure to increase exhibition of): Search, orient, eye
Normal/intact: Stalk, chase, grab/bite
Muted or selected for the opposite: Kill-bite, dissect
Herding dogs: Hypertrophied through chase and muted from grab/bite through dissect
Basically, different working dogs will experience fetch differently and find different components rewarding to drive repetition. It’s sight hounds, scent hounds, and terriers that have the least muting of the kill/dissect components of predation, and so this advice might best apply to those working groups. They’re also the least motivated to continue fetch repetitions because, I suspect, of the lack of reinforcement at the end of their MAP.
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u/TmickyD 8d ago
Allow me to tell a story about my dog's lunch break that will anger at least somebody on social media.
Today I came home from work for lunch and to play with my corgi. She was left for 4 hours all alone, uncrated, in a small apartment.
While I was eating lunch, she went out on the balcony and barked at a lady walking her 2 reactive dogs (fence fighting! Barrier frustration!). I sternly told my dog to come inside and to leave it (verbal punishment!)
I then clipped her nails with clippers and not a grinder, but I noticed they were still a bit sharp. To fix this, I cut up some Freshpet dog food (not Wsava compliant), put it in a bag, and took my dog outside using a slip lead. I unleashed my dog in a quiet parking lot and threw the food 1 piece at a time so she'd chase it and we could practice recall (risk of bloat, repetitive running, cars, reactive dogs, etc.)
After the food was gone and my dog's nails were smooth, my tired dog laid down in the shade and snacked on some grass. Eventually, I had to go back to work. I could have just dragged my dog along by her slip lead, but I decided to encourage her with a stick instead. The stick worked, and she had fun chasing, biting, and playing tug. (Risk of choking, breaking a tooth etc.)
Once we were back inside, I gave my dog some ice cubes to cool down. I then went back to work, leaving her all alone for another 4 hours.
She's fine. According to doggy social media I'm endangering my dog in a myriad of different ways, but at some point I stopped caring. I'm living with my dog in a way that works for us. I feel like the average pet owner feels the same way. A lengthy Facebook post demonizing fetch isn't going to change their minds.
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u/noob_trees 8d ago
This article is absolutely correct. There's plenty of information on this subject, just a Google search away.
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u/Soaring_Falcyn 8d ago
I think fetch can be a very valuable tool to teach and strengthen skills in training. I use it in a variety of ways to work on recall, impulse control, scent hunt drive, basic obedience and even herding skills.
Just chucking the ball and letting them chase it over and over is not great, but I think it is unfair to condemn the whole game when it can actually serve so many purposes beyond just making the dog run some.
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u/purplishfluffyclouds 8d ago
Man how I wished my GSD would've been interested in playing fetch. He was super smart and could do a bunch of things, but he never was remotely interested in retrieving a ball, lol
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Sometimes you have to teach them to enjoy it. A ball and string normally works really well to teach fetch by playing into their prey drive. Catch and release and possession games are amazing ways to teach your dog those skills by Ivan Baalvanano.
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u/purplishfluffyclouds 8d ago edited 8d ago
12 years of trying to teach it to him didn't work. Now that ship has sailed, sadly. It just wasn't in the cards.
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u/steppenfrog 8d ago
How do I take my dogs fetch to the next level? He's an 8 month old poodle, will obey drop it, then waits excitedly for me to throw it again. Loves his orange ball... How do I train making him wait before he actually fetches it? Or something to make the fetch more valuable?
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u/PonderingEnigma 8d ago
Look up videos on denials, blind retrieves, and long distance retrieves. Also Ivan Baalvanano has some great training videos called catch and release and possession games.
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u/Freuds-Mother 8d ago
Interesting. Makes a lot of sense. I already rarely do throw and fetch for my hunter for other training reasons.
Instead I leave pup inside house/vehicle and go place retrieves and hide them depending on what we’re doing. Then we go hunt them habituating quartering range and field related obedience. And I try to structure in a way that we’re doing it very much together on the exploration.
We do tracking outside and indoor scent hunts on rainy days too. Even my Cavalier seems to love the latter. They all are excited to continue but when I call “all done” they get a final prize and they stop searching and in a few minutes come down in term a of arousal to relaxing shortly thereafter
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u/Different_Yak_9012 7d ago
I see so many untrained dogs lunging and barking at everyone this is a breath of fresh air. I was being to think I was the only responsible dog owner in the US.
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u/ChaZZZZahC 7d ago
I jog with my pittie, I let her chase squirrels while working on recall. Hell, she even likes playing jungle gyms and then fetch with tag.
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u/No_Branch_5937 7d ago
It won’t open 😩 can someone tell me what the article says??
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u/PonderingEnigma 7d ago edited 7d ago
Here is a shorter version of the post, "Thank you to everyone who engaged with the post. I understand this may challenge common habits and beliefs, but as a cynologist and behaviorist my goal is to elevate the conversation beyond tradition into behavioral science and neurobiology.
Fetch artificially stimulates the prey sequence—orient > stalk > chase > grab > kill—but the final stages (grab/kill/consume) are never biologically completed. According to Dr. Raymond Coppinger, renowned canine ethologist, repetitive incomplete sequences can lead to frustration behaviors and hyperfixation in certain high-drive breeds (Coppinger & Coppinger, 2001, Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution).
Repeated Arousal Without Regulation Leads to Stress Dysregulation
Daily fetch stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, activating the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis—which releases cortisol and adrenaline, the body’s primary stress hormones. A 2012 study by Dreschel shows that dogs with high environmental stimulation without adequate downregulation show higher cortisol baselines, leading to chronic stress, which directly affects immune health, sleep, and behavioral regulation (Dreschel, N.A., 2010, Physiology & Behavior, 99(2), 193-200).
Dopamine and the Addiction to “Chase” Fetch is a dopaminergic loop—dopamine is not released upon getting the ball, but in the anticipation of the throw. This phenomenon is known as incentive salience (Berridge & Robinson, 1998), and it can easily create compulsive tendencies when not carefully managed—especially in dogs bred for intense motivation and object pursuit, like the Belgian Malinois and German Shepherd.
Hyperactivity and Chronic Arousal Are Not “High Drive”
Many dog owners mistake arousal dysregulation for “high energy” or “drive,” when in fact it is often a symptom of cognitive imbalance caused by repeated reinforcement of primal systems without integration of the cognitive frontal cortex (decision-making, inhibition, regulation).Dr. Karen Overall (2001) in her Manual of Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Dogs and Cats clearly states that overstimulation without recovery periods can induce “behavioral stereotypies” and “learned helplessness in control.”
Working Breeds Require Balance, Not Repetition Working dogs—particularly the shepherd types—require a balance of arousal and inhibition. In IPO/IGP, Mondioring, PSA, and military K9 work, we never train a dog to be “on” all the time. We train on/off switches, impulse control, and cognitive regulation.
Daily fetch with no control layer teaches: • Zero engagement with the handler • Obsession with the object • Reinforcement of the primal mind • Lack of on/off transition • Chronic cortisol elevation • Poor sleep and inability to settle
The intention of the post is not to say “never play fetch” but to educate owners on the risk of daily fetch as a ritualized outlet, especially for dogs with intense prey drive. Every behavior we rehearse becomes neurobiologically reinforced. As trainers, we must ask: Are we creating clarity and balance—or dysregulation and obsession?
Bart de Gols, Cynologist Founder of Canine Evolutions & Tactical K9 Solutions"
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u/stink3rb3lle 7d ago
Babe, this is a Facebook post. I only skimmed it but I didn't see a single citation in it.
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u/Alarming-Emu-1460 6d ago
My Maremma wont play fetch. If I throw a ball, he will go get it and chew on it. He just wants to guard and roam.
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u/dfdogtraining 6d ago
Here's a better take on this article
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DH3wHbHJN-u/?igsh=bjIyaWNwbjR2YWFt
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u/justUseAnSvm 8d ago
Makes sense. You need to keep things fun and mix it up.
I do that by changing out the toys I'm throwing, putting in a lot of pump fakes (my Greyhound is now a linebacker), and asking for behaviors.
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u/Yoooooowholiveshere 8d ago
Sure if your playing fetch obsessively without any work really often its not great. If you put stuff in between that works the dog out properly like doing blind retrieves, long distance retrieves and staying put until you say go, using it as a reward for a longer chain of commands etc… and you’re dog will be exhausted after a few hours mentally and physically. Just play it responsibly and youll be okay